Buffing Tukima's Dance

[dynast]

Bad Design: TD is currently a level 3 spell that can only be found on 2 books and falls behind in most aspects compared to enslavement, a level 4 spell thats is found on the starting book of the 2 hexing backgrounds, making it only a flavor spell.

My suggestions to improve TD are:

Make it able to target ranged weapons (making it fall to the ground).
Increase the duration and/or make it last even after the previous owner is already dead.
Increase its HP so it wont fall down to enemy punches.
Allow for targeting melee weapons on the floor, raising them for the duration and destroying it afterwards.
Allow for smite targeting or to target past animated weapons(the last meaning that animated weapons wont stay in the way of other hexes, like enslavement).
Have it spell level back to 5 or so.

[phobetor]

Allow for targeting melee weapons on the floor, raising them for the duration and destroying it afterwards.

This should never happen. If you can target random weapons on the ground it becomes an optimal strategy to either carry around a bunch of random weapons to drop and use, or set up killing fields with tons of weapons already there. Both of these are tedious and uninteresting and should not be added to crawl.

The rest of the changes would be fine. I'd especially like the spell to be smite targeted. That would definitely give the spell a unique element and make more situation where its useful.

That being said I don't think the spell needs a buff. Its a solid spell, both giving you a fairly strong summon and crippling you opponents. It also has its own niche, being more useful than enslavement when facing single enemies.

[notcluie]

the best way to buff tukima's dance would be to just remove it, it does everything enslavement does but worse and enslavement is even a starting book spell while tukima isn't, so it being level 3 isn't much of a point in its favor anyway

[nicolae]

enslavement is even a starting book spell while tukima isn't

Does that necessarily have to be the case...?

[roctavian]

dynast: I just want to address the fact that you may feel demoralized, ganged up upon, and frustrated; your longer general thread got closed with the advice of "come up with a specific proposal," now your specific proposal is having its flaws exposed. Don't take that personally, this is how things work around here. But do take suggestions seriously -- it's how you'll be able to refine your ideas of how to contribute to the game. phobetor has good feedback in this thread so far.

[duvessa]

the best way to buff tukima's dance would be to just remove it, it does everything enslavement does but worse and enslavement is even a starting book spell while tukima isn't, so it being level 3 isn't much of a point in its favor anyway

alternatively remove enslavement

[and into]

the best way to buff tukima's dance would be to just remove it, it does everything enslavement does but worse and enslavement is even a starting book spell while tukima isn't, so it being level 3 isn't much of a point in its favor anyway

alternatively remove enslavement

Yeah, I think enslavement is more appropriate as a wand-only effect, and TD would be fun for enchanter and/or arcane marksman starting book. At least, spell enslavement, as currently designed, potentially allows for more degenerate game play than does current version of TD.

[dynast]

dynast: I just want to address the fact that you may feel demoralized, ganged up upon, and frustrated

It was a little stressing, but im ok now, it was my first topic and i approached it the wrong way to start with.

If people debunk my suggestions i ll be fine because at least my topic is not being dismissed this time.

[dynast]

it becomes an optimal strategy to either carry around a bunch of random weapons to drop and use, or set up killing fields with tons of weapons already there.

You mean like when people make poison arrow fields to use ignite poison on?

I understand that, but remember it would cost around 5 mana to raise a single weapon from the floor, and it would be destroyed afterwards, meaning that you would have to farm for a lot of weapons to actually turn this into a strategy. But still arguably anyways.

[cerebovssquire]

it becomes an optimal strategy to either carry around a bunch of random weapons to drop and use, or set up killing fields with tons of weapons already there.

You mean like when people make poison arrow fields to use ignite poison on?

I understand that, but remember it would cost around 5 mana to raise a single weapon from the floor, and it would be destroyed afterwards, meaning that you would have to farm for a lot of weapons to actually turn this into a strategy.

Which means that rather than the stategy requires a lot of mindless, repetitive work rather than a little of it, which I don't see as an argument for allowing targeting weapons on the floor.
I've never heard of that particular ignite poison strategy, but it sounds like something that should be removed rather than copied.

[phobetor]

You mean like when people make poison arrow fields to use ignite poison on?

I understand that, but remember it would cost around 5 mana to raise a single weapon from the floor, and it would be destroyed afterwards, meaning that you would have to farm for a lot of weapons to actually turn this into a strategy. But still arguably anyways.

I'm not sure what exactly you're referring to. Do you mean collecting a bunch of harmless critters in an area, luring something dangerous to that spot, then poisoning everything, then using ignite poison? I can't see that as ever being practical but have never tried it so who knows. Also I don't have much experience with ignite poison so I can't really speak on it in general.

What I'm talking about is collecting every weapon from every floor and putting them in strategic locations. When you encounter something tough you can then run to that area knowing you have a field of fairly strong summon at your disposal. Collecting and placing the weapons would be incredibly tedious. It would also have no risk and next to no cost.

[Quazifuji]

Yeah, I think enslavement is more appropriate as a wand-only effect, and TD would be fun for enchanter and/or arcane marksman starting book. At least, spell enslavement, as currently designed, potentially allows for more degenerate game play than does current version of TD.

It often feels like the biggest issue with enslavement is just the way it affects discussions of hexes. Enslavement is, in some ways, the ultimate single-target hex. It turns an enemy into an ally for a fight, and it makes them stabbable after. Basically, ever time I see a discussion about a new idea for a single-target disable, it comes down to "confusion and hibernation have early game covered, and then enslavement is better than an instant kill at level 4, so where could anything else go?"

I feel like the key question here is "is enslavement too strong right now?" If enslavement's too strong, then it should be changed or removed either way, and then we can consider whether that opens up some new single target disables or a buff to Tukima's dance to create something more powerful than current level 3 hexes but less powerful than enslavement. If enslavement's power level is appropriate for a level 4 hex, then it's trickier, because that means the problem with designing disables above level 3 isn't that enslavement exists, but that hexes' unreliability is a big enough flaw that a level 4 hex should be better than an instankill. Removing enslavement would just open up a slot to be filled by something else of the same power level, which still doesn't leave room for various interesting mid-level hex ideas people have had.

I guess one area that hasn't been played with much is varying levels of reliability. Hexes don't all have the same level of reliability, from what I understand, but I don't think it feels hugely different. Part of the problem with Tukima's dance, at least the few times I've tried it, is that it often just feels like every turn I was attempting to dance an enemy, I could have been confusing or enslaving them instead.

[duvessa]

I feel like the key question here is "is enslavement too strong right now?"

That's a question?

[Arrhythmia]

I feel like the key question here is "is enslavement too strong right now?"

That's a question?

starts with a verb, ends with a question mark, hard to see how it isn't.

[dynast]

I'm not sure what exactly you're referring to.

When you get ignite poison and you are doing a branch like spider nest or snake pit its more effective to grab poison chunks or arrows, place them on the ground or throw at the enemy feet, then cast ignite poison to set fire flames on the floor, having a better damage output for a lower mana cost, instead of repeatedly casting ignite poison until everything is dead.

What I'm talking about is collecting every weapon from every floor and putting them in strategic locations.

That would only be viable on a "weaponless" branch, where you would bring your weapons to raise for fights, afterwards you would run out of it, having to run back for more.

In places like vaults, for example, you would prefer to take your enemies weapon, crippling them in the process, instead of bringing weapons to fight against armed foes then grabing those defeated foes weapons to use on the next fight.

When you encounter something tough you can then run to that area knowing you have a field of fairly strong summon at your disposal. Collecting and placing the weapons would be incredibly tedious. It would also have no risk and next to no cost.

I agree.