Some comments on Cigotuvi's Embrace spell


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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 25th November 2014, 22:28

Some comments on Cigotuvi's Embrace spell

  Code:
Add Cigotuvi's Embrace

 Grab all nearby corpses and turn them into armour + sh. (SH for
 consistency with the bone plates mutation, and also to make it a
 little more distinctive.)

 1/3 of a point of SH & AC per skeleton, 2/3rds per corpse,
 minimum one point if you hoovered any corpses/skeletons at all.
 casting. Multiple casts stack. Taking damage or blocking hits has
 a chance of causing you to lose 1 point; chance decreases with
 spellpower. Incompatible with Stoneskin/Ozo's. Does not decay
 over time, ironically.

 Intent is to replace Twisted Resurrection, which has been
 considered a Problem Spell for some time, with another & more
 novel use for corpses.

This spell has several extremely problematic design decisions in its current state.

The most problematic thing is that the defenses are permanent. I believe very strongly that this should not be the case; it encourages doing lots of silly things like going to orc and waiting for an orc band to spawn to refresh your Cigotuvi defenses, and leads to/exacerbates the problems below.

The second problem is how it turns individual corpses into 1 AC, unless multiple corpses are in range. So what you want to do (especially since the AC is permanent!) is move out of range of all but one corpse, cast the spell, move into range of a second corpse, etc. You lose a bit of time this way but that's pretty minor (you can do things like make sure to kill monsters on the previous floor if you want, to minimize the time cost, and if you have some source of good MP regen the cost is tiny).

A third problem: it's a non-combat spell, with all the usual non-combat spell problems. See also: repel missiles.

Thankfully, there's a reasonably simple way to fix these problems:

Make the spell temporary, with a very short duration (comparable to phase shift). Then, obviously, the power of the effect must be increased significantly; I suggest making it also power-dependent. A good target for general power level would be phase shift, probably.

Unfortunately you then end up with a problem with Kiku corpse drop (thanks for the 15 AC); possibly the best solution is to make the AC nonlinear, so the first corpse gives 3 AC + 3 SH but five corpses gives, say, 9 of each or something. I don't know the right numbers since I'd have to try the spell to actually see. If you do something like cast it once on 4 corpses and then cast it next turn on 2 more, this should be the same result as if you just used it on all 6 corpses at once. Possibly a cap on total AC/SH gained too (which would probably only be relevant with corpse drop) but maybe that's not necessary, especially since you could just use animate dead or simulacrum on the corpses (from corpse drop) instead.

Possibly a better implementation would be to make the spell behave like death channel: you cast the spell once, whenever you want to start the effect, and then whenever a corpse is generated in view during the effect it adds to your defenses. This works better from a player standpoint since you aren't forced to waste turns during combat doing non-damaging things; you can cast it like you cast other buff spells.

Permanent gains from corpses really don't work imo ... I think even animate dead and animate skeleton are a bit iffy design-wise and those are far less problematic than the implemented Cigotuvi's Embrace because at least they can't go with you to other floors like your defenses can. But turning dead things into defenses could work as a spell.

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duvessa, Sprucery

Dungeon Master

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Post Tuesday, 25th November 2014, 22:31

Re: Some comments on Cigotuvi's Embrace spell

(1) I'm already planning to make it temporary; there are technical issues but it should be done in a day or two.

(2) You misunderstood how the spell works.

(3) yeah this sucks

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crate

Dungeon Master

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Post Tuesday, 25th November 2014, 22:32

Re: Some comments on Cigotuvi's Embrace spell

More specifically on (2):

Each skeleton you scoop up gives you 1 point of corpsejuice; each non-skeleton corpse you scoop up gives you 2 points. You get (n + 2)/3 points of AC and SH while the spell is active.

Dungeon Master

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Post Tuesday, 25th November 2014, 23:11

Re: Some comments on Cigotuvi's Embrace spell

Turning it into death channel would solve the noncombat spell problem nicely, but would add yet another duration to the status bar, and might overlap a little too much with, well, death channel. I'm undecided.
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Barkeep

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Post Wednesday, 26th November 2014, 01:08

Re: Some comments on Cigotuvi's Embrace spell

If it's a status (and I kind of like that idea without thinking too hard) I think it'd be reasonable to not allow it and death channel to be active at the same time. "You can only have one magical corpse use active at a time."
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Mines Malingerer

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Post Wednesday, 26th November 2014, 21:20

Re: Some comments on Cigotuvi's Embrace spell

The true problem with this spell is the fact that it lacks a spell icon!

Confirmed on Saint's stream (ignore the underlined hexes part).

Unbenannt.png
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Mines Malingerer

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Post Wednesday, 26th November 2014, 21:33

Re: Some comments on Cigotuvi's Embrace spell

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Shoals Surfer

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Post Monday, 1st December 2014, 21:30

Re: Some comments on Cigotuvi's Embrace spell

njvack wrote:If it's a status (and I kind of like that idea without thinking too hard) I think it'd be reasonable to not allow it and death channel to be active at the same time. "You can only have one magical corpse use active at a time."


This spell is already weak compared to animate dead (not to mention stoneskin/ozo's), forcing a choice between animate dead+death channel or embrace would make it even worse. Death channel has nothing to do with corpses in the first place.
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Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 2nd December 2014, 01:59

Re: Some comments on Cigotuvi's Embrace spell

scorpionwarrior wrote:This spell is already weak

"Weak" is trivially changeable by making numbers into different numbers*. Preventing annoying/degenerate behavior and/or adding extra player statuses is harder.

* For example, if each corpse added 500 AC, it would be very strong.
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

Snake Sneak

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Post Tuesday, 2nd December 2014, 02:55

Re: Some comments on Cigotuvi's Embrace spell

My impression of Cig's Embrace is that it is not very useful. In order for it to provide any meaningful benefit you have to have a decent number of corpses in the area. By the time you get a decent number of corpses you've either won the battle already or could put those corpses to better use as zombie allies. Better designed examples imo include death channel and the ds powered by death mut, both of which provide ramping bonuses as the battle progresses. They lead to a more interesting "kill enough to reach critical mass" dynamic. However as stated having Cig's Embrace overlap with death channel isn't desireable. I do like the concept of using corpses for AC+SH though.

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Tuesday, 2nd December 2014, 06:42

Re: Some comments on Cigotuvi's Embrace spell

SaidTheAlligatorKingToHisSon wrote: or could put those corpses to better use as zombie allies.


This seems like the main issue here. Everything else feels pretty solvable, and the idea of being able to use corpses for a purpose other than food, piety, or minions is a good idea, but minions are so powerful in DCSS that it's hard to come up with a good alternative tat doesn't feel weaker.

Granted, there are situations where someone doesn't benefit hugely from minions - most notably characters who frequently use AoE spells that would kill their minions anyway - and I don't think it's a problem if the spell is general a less effective use for corpses than animate dead as long as it is useful in some scenarios. I think you could also easily make the case that the problem is more an issue with Animate Dead than Cigotuvi's Embrace.

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scorpionwarrior

Snake Sneak

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Post Tuesday, 2nd December 2014, 20:59

Re: Some comments on Cigotuvi's Embrace spell

How about embrace cashes in your friendly zombies for the bonus?

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damiac

Abyss Ambulator

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Post Wednesday, 3rd December 2014, 15:14

Re: Some comments on Cigotuvi's Embrace spell

That's a neat idea. But the bonus really needs to be temporary in some way, especially if you can cash in your permanent zombies and skeletons for it.

Otherwise, I could just raise every single corpse as I go through the game, then right before I enter Zot, or whatever dangerous place, I go back to every floor I have zombies on, and get a giant boost to my armor. Even worse, I can farm respawns to power myself up in the same way.

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Wednesday, 3rd December 2014, 21:42

Re: Some comments on Cigotuvi's Embrace spell

Why not make zombies temporary? (make them rot over time)
Embrace could work only when the corpse drops, like death channel.
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Snake Sneak

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Post Wednesday, 3rd December 2014, 22:41

Re: Some comments on Cigotuvi's Embrace spell

Zombies being permanent is an issue, but for me animate dead is more useful during a fight as well as the zombies can deal lots of damage (deep troll packs especially). This could be fixed as mentioned earlier by giving a larger boost to ac+sh, but it'd be tricky to figure out the right balance.

Just had a thought, could have the spell work kind of like the ds powered by death mut, with a ramping increase to ac+sh the longer corpses are in sight, and more corpses = quicker ramp up. Could also set a max boost based on necro spellpower, and have the boost quickly or instantly ramp down when corpses are gone (to prevent double dipping with animate dead).

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