Proposal: Piety meter for Xom

[Psiweapon]

Right now there is one Xom parameter which is accessible to the player through the ^ screen, which is:

• very special plaything
• special plaything
• plaything
• toy
• favourite toy
• beloved toy
• teddy bear

If this information, which is the component of Xom's "piety" made known to the player, should indeed be available to the player,
having to check your ^ screen to know it in case you want to take it into account, is a bit of an interface impairment, and I don't think Xom is the god of interface screws.

Since the piety meter is unused, it could be repurposed in this fashion:

• *..... very special plaything
• .*..... special plaything
• ..*.... plaything
• ...*... toy
• ....*.. favourite toy
• .....*. beloved toy
• ......* teddy bear

That's seven stars, but "very special plaything" might as well be six dots and then go from *..... to .....*

Just one star shifting position would reflect the fact that what is meaningful is the distance from the middle, not the total amount as with other gods. An advantage I think that could come out of this piety meter is that players would be able to more organically adapt to / roll with Xom's flow.

Edit: typo

[SaidTheAlligatorKingToHisSon]

Concerning players adapting to Xom's mood, the only time I do this is when playing a CK background solely to win (I'll consider abandoning Xom early on when I first hit very special plaything). If I'm worshipping Xom through the entire game for giggles I never consider his mood, even though that would probably be "optimal" play. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of players do not consider Xom's mood and just roll with it.

If anything I would like to see Xom go the other way, removing piety and boredom entirely. Just worship Xom and go with the flow.

[Sandman25]

When you are very special things, you may want to put stasis amulet on and move closer to stairs. When you are teddy bear, you may want to rush into a battle. So the indicator could be very useful.

[crate]

It doesn't even matter if the information is useful, which Psiweapon sort of points out. If this is information that players are going to be given, it makes sense to make it as easy to access as possible. There's already an indicator built in the game for other gods' piety so using it in this fashion for Xom piety makes sense and is a clear UI improvement.

(Of course, Xom's mood is in fact actually useful information so this makes it more important to improve the interface for seeing Xom's mood, or alternatively you could hide it from the player entirely, though I would prefer the suggestion in the OP.)

[njvack]

I'd rather Xom's mood be totally hidden, honestly. I know it's important, but Xom feels like a god who should not be gamed.

[crate]

I'd rather Xom's mood be totally hidden, honestly. I know it's important, but Xom feels like a god who should not be gamed.

Well the most manipulable part of Xom right now is not related to playing differently because of what mood he's in (and you can still sort of figure out his mood anyway even without the display telling you, unless the way it gets randomized gets changed significantly).

[Hirsch I]

today I learned being a very special plaything is actually not good. well, fuck.

[Psiweapon]

I'm not worried about optimal play or exploiting Xom, I'm worried about fluidity of the Xom experience and immersion factor.

The information is already available, and could be made readily available in an unobstructive way that would make playing with Xom a more hands-on and aware experience.

I can't really think of a reason to choose xom only to leave it, I could pick any other god instead. Xom lends itself easily to throw-away characters, but that doesn't mean you cannot pick up Xom's silver trout and accept the challenge, and take it seriously. Other gods have conducts, simple or complex, and it's an integral part them. Also, Xom is mostly amused by things that are beyond your control, are potentially or actually detrimental, or are just silly and not an advantage. To top it all off, Xom will in all likelihood still troll you in the worst possible moment.

Why didn't I bring up mood?

-It's only conveyed through messages
-That meter is conventionally used for piety display
-Displaying both would probably make the interface weirder, and even though I'd enjoy it, one of the main arguments for this proposal is that it would be an interface improvement.

Otherwise, SOME kind of display for Xom would be good, but piety correlates with the likelihood of Xom's good actions and strength of all actions; and thus "potential intensity of the Xom experience", conventional piety meters also correlate with "potential intensity of the [Deity] experience".

If you have one star of Makhleb's piety, the intensity of the Makhleb experience can only be pretty tame: Some HP refund on kills - low potential intensity. If you have five stars of Makhleb's piety, the intensity of the Makhleb experience can reach much higher: Major Destruction spam left, right and middle; and even the occasional fight with a hostile demon or two - Very high potential intensity. Potential intensity because you might be able to tab everything to death, or you might forget about using some ability, resulting in low actual intensity.

Edit:Misconception Edit2: Sigh, a couple of mistaken words.

[dpeg]

Looks good to me!

[PleasingFungus]

One small problem:


Xom already gives info in the place where piety stars usually go.

Give me a good mockup of a solution to this problem, and I'll implement it.

[Quazifuji]

I've been considering making a post about clarifying Xom "piety" levels for a while. I support this message.

today I learned being a very special plaything is actually not good. well, fuck.

This is why I think clarity is needed. I'd also be in favor of changing the titles too, personally. I don't really know why "plaything" is considered bad but "toy" is considered good, and I often get it mixed up which is which (I actually thought plaything was the good one). I don't think there's anything intuitive about one of "plaything" or "toy" being better than the other, so I'd change one of the two. Although I did just ask my girlfriend, who doesn't play the game at all, and she said "plaything" sounds worse because it just sounds like he's messing with you, so maybe it's just me and Hirsch.

I'd rather Xom's mood be totally hidden, honestly. I know it's important, but Xom feels like a god who should not be gamed.

Personally, when I think "gaming Xom" I think using tricks to keep him entertained. I don't think playing more cautiously when Xom's in a bad mood or aggressively when he's in a good mood is gaming Xom. I agree with psiweapon that the ability to strategize when playing as a Chaos Knight should still exist. You shouldn't be able to manipulate him into being a constant positive influence, but you should be able to play around his mood. If you can intentionally affect Xom's mood, it turns him into a completely different god, but if you can't even react to his mood, then it makes him much less interesting.

[Psiweapon]

One small problem:


Xom already gives info in the place where piety stars usually go.

Give me a good mockup of a solution to this problem, and I'll implement it.

Well... I threw a couple of characters in Console to get a feel for how much space there is. Here are several approaches:

Conventional Solution #1:
-The amusement value is only reflected as a warning when GETTING BORED or BORED.
Solution: If the HP meter is anything to go by in terms of available space, it's simple enough to append the warning to the piety meter.

  Code:

Psiweapon the Twirler
Human of Xom ....*.. getting BORED

  Code:

Psiweapon the Twirler
Human of Xom ...*... XOM IS BORED

Unconventional Solution #1
-Amusement is displayed more prominently in better detail.
Solution: Xom followers' title is dependant on Xom amusement, overriding skill title.

  Code:

Psiweapon the BORING THING
Human of Xom ..*....

Psiweapon the Comedian
Human of Xom ....*..

Psiweapon the Mildly Amusing
Human of Xom .....*.


BORING THING - BORING - (no change) - Mildly Amusing - Amusing - Comedian - Buffoon (or just whatever titles)

Unconventional Solution #2
-Amusement is displayed in better detail but not as prominently:
Solution: Amusement is displayed as an additional adjective in the character title:

  Code:

Psiweapon the BORING Twirler
Human of Xom ..*....

Psiweapon the Bland Cruncher
Human of Xom ....*..

Psiweapon the Funny Stickfighter
Human of Xom .....*.


BORING - Bland - Interesting - Funny - Humorous - Hilarious - Side-Splitting (or other titles)

Unconventional Solution #3
-Amusement value is ALSO conveyed through the piety meter, and should be available through the ^ screen
Solution: Display amusement as the piety meter *colors*


Added value: This can be combined with any of Conventional Solution #1 and Unconventional Solutions #1 or #2.

Edit: Unconventional Solution #3

[Galefury]

I would like the Xom rainbow with no documentation at all please. (Not serious about no documentation)

[XuaXua]

How about replacing the piety meter with emoticons reflecting Xom's mood?

  Code:

BORED            .. B( .
getting Bored    .. :( .
interested       .. :P .
mildly amused    .. :| .
amused           .. :) .
thinks hilarious .. :D .
roaring          .. XD .



Combine it with colors...

[Psiweapon]

XuaXua's model, colored:

Spoiler: show

Note that this meter has 7 points and is 8 characters wide.

[XuaXua]

XuaXua's model, colored

What is that range, animated or a ranking of piety?

I think I'm "getting it"; Xom has both an attitude and a piety quantity.

[duvessa]

fix: remove xom interest because it promotes ridiculous scumming and is completely unnecessary and is completely incomprehensible to unspoiled players
now you have the space free for xom mood, done

[eliotn]

I think should be :/ and switched with in interest level but otherwise this looks very xomish.

[XuaXua]

suggestion

Like this, then?

  Code:

BORED            .. B( .
getting Bored    .. :( .
interested       .. :| .
mildly amused    .. :/ .
amused           .. :) .
thinks hilarious .. :D .
roaring          .. XD .



I am very pro-'P', but I can take it or leave it. I think the '/' look a bit weird in depth combination with the other characters, but that's just me. Perhaps we can

go felid

  Code:

BORED            .. B( .
getting Bored    .. :( .
interested       .. :| .
mildly amused    .. :} .
amused           .. :) .
thinks hilarious .. :D .
roaring          .. XD .


or go stoic

  Code:

BORED            .. B( .
getting Bored    .. :( .
interested       .. :| .
mildly amused    .. :] .
amused           .. :) .
thinks hilarious .. :D .
roaring          .. XD .


other alternatives

  Code:

mildly amused    .. :] .
mildly amused    .. :} .
mildly amused    .. :) .
mildly amused    .. :/ .
mildly amused    .. :\ .
mildly amused    .. :\ .
mildly amused    .. :E .
mildly amused    .. :o .
mildly amused    .. :O .
mildly amused    .. :Z .
mildly amused    .. :I .
mildly amused    .. :P .
mildly amused    .. :p .
mildly amused    .. :% .


[1010011010]

  Code:

BORED            >:(..
getting Bored    ):(..
interested       .:(..
mildly amused    .:|..
amused           ..:).
thinks hilarious ..:D.
roaring          ...XD


[Sandman25]

Why can't we have plain -3, -2, -1, 0, +1, +2 and +3? It's more readable IMHO. We don't want to repeat mistake with "uncannily/incredibly resistant" when unspoiled player cannot tell which is better - ":D" or "XD", do we?

[XuaXua]

Why can't we have plain -3, -2, -1, 0, +1, +2 and +3? It's more readable IMHO. We don't want to repeat mistake with "uncannily/incredibly resistant" when unspoiled player cannot tell which is better - ":D" or "XD", do we?

That's what we have a manual for. Also it's XOM.

[nilsbloodaxe]

fix: remove xom interest because it promotes ridiculous scumming and is completely unnecessary and is completely incomprehensible to unspoiled players
now you have the space free for xom mood, done

Yeah, I've won with Xom, and I still have no idea how interest works.

[HisMajestyBOB]

XuaXua's model, colored:

Spoiler: show

Note that this meter has 7 points and is 8 characters wide.

This is the coolest thing. I like the way it effectively displays info at a glance and it also fits Xom very, very well.

[ebering]

https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=9268

This does the simpler end of the ideas here. No emoticons or rainbow colours, but that version would be pretty easy now that this is done. But I don't think that's necessarily for the best since the goal is to make Xom more understandable by indicating mood in a fashion parallel to regular god piety.

[XuaXua]

https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=9268

This does the simpler end of the ideas here. No emoticons or rainbow colours, but that version would be pretty easy now that this is done. But I don't think that's necessarily for the best since the goal is to make Xom more understandable by indicating mood in a fashion parallel to regular god piety.

:{