Improving Hexes


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Post Wednesday, 10th December 2014, 18:03

Improving Hexes

So, i have been playing Vampire enchanter/arcane Marksman for the last few weeks, trying to have a run while focusing around 25% of all the exp towards hexes and, as the game started to bash me really hard death after death, i started to notice that theres little to no payback into training hexes, to the point where it would be more worth to just train some form of combat, learning only basic spells like invisiblity. I understand that Vp is more of a challenge species and there will be a increased difficulty so here are the reasons and suggestions on this regard:

Most hexes doesnt cause damage, yet they cost mana - first we have to keep in mind that casting a hex COST MANA! yes, all spells cost mana, but when you cast a hex and a monster "resist with almost no effort" you can pretty much give up on hexing that target, because its likely to never work, meanwhile you try to hex another weaker monster and it "barely resists" three times in a row.

The lack of a paralyze spell - we have EH which is good until it reaches its maximum spellpower and all monsters you meet in the game can "easily resist" it. Just look at the orc sorcerer paralyze spell, its not overpowered in any way, it costs mana and can be resisted. If we have Petrify why not Paralyze?

Polymorph - having a spell to turn a monster into a near harmless creature for the cost of not getting any experience upon killing it.

Better spellpower scaling with hexes level - have spells like enslavement, confuse and EH(or paralyze) be more reliable on the extended run.



A few other things to be taken in consideration:

Theres currently a lot of hexes in the game to deal with most situations - if you cant sleep your target you confuse it, if you cant confuse you slow , if you cant slow you charm, if you cant charm you turn invisible, if it notices you run. But actually having all these costs a lot of spell levels.

Unlike most other spell schools in the game, hexes is not supported by any of it - for example, a fire elementalist meets a monster thats fire immune, the response to that would be to use bolt of magma or conjuration spells, which act as support school for damaging spells while providing its own. If a enchanter meets a target thats magic immune it could use Fulminating prism, but training conjurations doesnt add anything to hexes, it replaces it instead, as you would end up bursting your enemies with damaging spells instead of disabling them.



Discarded ideas:

Mass Inner flame spell - level 8 spell thats the same as reading a scrolls of immolation, except monsters can resist it.

Vulnerability spell - level 9 spell thats the same thing as reading a vulnerability scroll. The effect cant be stacked.



Conclusion:

Hexes is a school to support combat (like Charms) but not as reliable as it should be. It takes players the effort of learning how to effectively use hexes to be nearly as equal(yet worse) as a fighter.
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Post Wednesday, 10th December 2014, 18:38

Re: Improving Hexes

Vampire is a bit tricky to get the hang of, but I don't think it's considered to be a particularly challenging race -- you get free resistances, good (if biased) aptitudes, amazing stealth, and a built-in escape form. Hexes also pay off investment fairly well, particularly on a race with +4 Hexes apt. Confusion alone (not to mention Enslave) is enough to take out probably 70%+ of the monsters in a typical game without much trouble (the ones with 100 or less MR), and when you add in invisibility and enslave, the number of things you can't kill safely with hexes alone is quite small. The power level of hexes is definitely not too low. It's true that the non-Invis Hexes are fairly spellpower dependent, so you might be running into the problem of getting your intelligence up on a character with no built-in stat gains, but your Hexes aptitude should compensate if you train it well; if you're not able to hex most things, you're probably not training Hexes high enough. Of course, since invis alone will do most of the work of the other hexes, you could just use that.

Of course, disabling a monster isn't killing it, so you probably will need to train up some offensive skills too -- probably Short Blades and Stealth for stabbing, or maybe Long Blades -- to finish off disabled monsters. As your combined weapon + Stealth skill increase, the odds of stabbing a confused/distracted target go up, as does the damage. To take a cue from your example of Fire Elementalists handling fire-resistant foes with Conjurations, you'll be handling both disabled and hex-resistant foes with melee.

To address your suggestions:
1) Hexes take mana without causing damage, but the same is true of almost all charms and translocations. Conjurations that miss or which are fully resisted by AC take mana. Summons that die or time out without hitting a monster take mana. Spending mana isn't a guarantee of a positive outcome. It's reasonable for hexes to sometimes fail; if they always worked, nothing hexable would ever be a challenge.
2) There's no Paralyze spell, but there's Confuse (a long-lasting disable) at level 3, and Enslave, which is better than paralyze, at level 4. There's not really room for a paralyze spell even if such were desirable. That a monster has access to an effect is not a good reason to give the same effect to a player, and it's certainly not something we strive for.
3) You still get experience for killing polymorphed creatures, and polymorphed creatures are not guaranteed to be weaker. They're often harder, but lacking equipment. The Polymorph spell was removed a while back, though (like paralysis) there are still wands of polymorph.
4) All the hexes still have a large number of targets in most parts of extended. You won't be able to hex every monster, but that's intentional.

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Post Wednesday, 10th December 2014, 20:00

Re: Improving Hexes

Lasty wrote:Confusion alone (not to mention Enslave) is enough to take out probably 70%+ of the monsters in a typical game without much trouble


The same could be said about a +0 flaming long sword.

Lasty wrote:when you add in invisibility and enslave, the number of things you can't kill safely with hexes alone is quite small.


I would say you cant safely kill things with invisibility because, as far as my games went, i noticed when you start hitting a target (in melee) while invis the other targets will head towards you, despite having high stealth. Things dont just wander around while you are invisible anymore and casting it gives you a lot of contam so you cant abuse it, it also can wear off soon before you expect.

Lasty wrote:The power level of hexes is definitely not too low. It's true that the non-Invis Hexes are fairly spellpower dependent, so you might be running into the problem of getting your intelligence up on a character with no built-in stat gains, but your Hexes aptitude should compensate if you train it well; if you're not able to hex most things, you're probably not training Hexes high enough


I train hexes enough to be fairly weak in melee combat. http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Dynas ... 161159.txt

Lasty wrote:Of course, disabling a monster isn't killing it, so you probably will need to train up some offensive skills too -- probably Short Blades and Stealth for stabbing, or maybe Long Blades -- to finish off disabled monsters. As your combined weapon + Stealth skill increase, the odds of stabbing a confused/distracted target go up, as does the damage.


I can Honestly say that the best thing to go around with hexes is ranged, being invisible and shooting from afar not only deals enough damage but it prevents confused monster from hitting you and also makes it harder for packs to notice your position. The whole deal of using hexes is that it adds too much rolls, too much space for things to go wrong, add that to stealth, stabbing and just overall bad positioning(due to the fact you are chasing a confused monster or approaching a sleeping group of spriggans/jumping spiders/etc).

Lasty wrote:1) Hexes take mana without causing damage, but the same is true of almost all charms and translocations. It's reasonable for hexes to sometimes fail; if they always worked, nothing hexable would ever be a challenge.


charms and translocations are support schools as well as hexes, but they only fail on their own, if you miscast haste then its a miscast, you can miscast mass confusion but it can also be resisted. They dont have to always work, but work better. take a look at the spellpower cap of enslave in comparison to fear.

Lasty wrote:2) There's no Paralyze spell, but there's Confuse (a long-lasting disable) at level 3, and Enslave, which is better than paralyze, at level 4.


Confuse can backfire and Enslaving doesnt kill the monster. Not killing the confused/enslaved monster or not being able to do so in a safe way can only lead to a dire situation. Again, we have petrify which is a disable that can ensure a safe kill but its not a hex, i cant see why not have a paralyze spell yet have a wand of it?
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Post Wednesday, 10th December 2014, 20:21

Re: Improving Hexes

W-why does your level 15 Vp has no Dodging trained?

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Post Wednesday, 10th December 2014, 21:07

Re: Improving Hexes

His dex was low, it would take a lot of training to get a very marginal increase on EV which would be mostly useless...
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Post Wednesday, 10th December 2014, 21:13

Re: Improving Hexes

You haven't mentioned anything about Dazzling Spray, the crowd control damage spell... that's found in the starting Enchanter book? Try using it next time, it has good damage output up to Vaults with a short term confuse effect on certain enemies. Besides, is there a problem with cross training schools to branch into alternatives and powering existing spells? Bolt of Magma being a 3 school spell still requires more investment to get respectable damage output out of it.

dynast wrote:I would say you cant safely kill things with invisibility because, as far as my games went, i noticed when you start hitting a target (in melee) while invis the other targets will head towards you, despite having high stealth. Things dont just wander around while you are invisible anymore and casting it gives you a lot of contam so you cant abuse it, it also can wear off soon before you expect.

Hexes, as far as I see from my En playthroughs, is about isolating dangerous targets by incapacitating the weaker ones. If confuse lands, the monster is essentially a non-issue barring noise attracting nearby monsters, Enslave turns them into a temporary asset.

Invisibility's potentially short duration means you use it to make it easier to take out a single, major threat or run the heck away from a dangerous mob. Invisibility is also more helpful if you plan around it. If a monster sees you turn invisible they still have a rough idea of where you are, but if you walk into a den of non-sInv monsters (that are sleeping) with a dagger that's basically a few turns to mow them down. Stealth/Dith or Scry/Ash helps a lot in setting that kind of situation up.

dynast wrote:I train hexes enough to be fairly weak in melee combat. http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Dynas ... 161159.txt

Hexes works better with Short Blades rather than Long Blades since most spells from the Enchanter book are about triggering stab bonuses (and non-Short Blade weapons do not match up to Short Blades in damage from stabs.) EH is the best for that purpose, but they delay/spellpower cap makes Confuse the one that lasts longer. Your training Long Blades didn't synergize with your Hexes as much as training Short Blades would have.

dynast wrote:I can Honestly say that the best thing to go around with hexes is ranged, being invisible and shooting from afar not only deals enough damage but it prevents confused monster from hitting you and also makes it harder for packs to notice your position. The whole deal of using hexes is that it adds too much rolls, too much space for things to go wrong, add that to stealth, stabbing and just overall bad positioning(due to the fact you are chasing a confused monster or approaching a sleeping group of spriggans/jumping spiders/etc).

You don't have to chase confused monsters? If you're near deep water or lava they can kill themselves, otherwise if you're far from them they'll rarely be able to chase you. I'm not sure how the spellpowers relate between Confuse and Enslavement but most monsters that can be confused can probably be enslaved too. And as I mentioned earlier, I think Hexes are more suitable to create 1v1 situations rather than help you take down groups of enemies.

dynast wrote:Confuse can backfire and Enslaving doesnt kill the monster. Not killing the confused/enslaved monster or not being able to do so in a safe way can only lead to a dire situation. Again, we have petrify which is a disable that can ensure a safe kill but its not a hex, i cant see why not have a paralyze spell yet have a wand of it?

You have a paralyze spell (as pointed out earlier), it's EH. It's balanced by not being repeatedly spammable and a low spellpower because have you ever tried stabbing a paralyzed/sleeping monster with high Stealth/Dex/Short Blades? It's pretty ridiculous.

If you're having trouble dealing with enslaved monsters, then like I said earlier most enslaved monsters can be confused. You also get a stab opportunity if you attack an enslaved monster so there's a chance you one shot it. Alternatively, have you considered telling it to wait and walk away from it? One benefit from high stealth is having the option to avoid some fights.

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Post Wednesday, 10th December 2014, 21:17

Re: Improving Hexes

I'm a bit torn because, on one hand, the things I want to say about that character* probably belong more in Dungeon Crawling Advice and not in GDD, but on other hand you used that character to make a point (you can't be good with Hexes and melee), and I think that with different equipment and skill choices that character would've been adequately good with both and wouldn't die to a swamp worm.

*like:
  • weird weapon choice
  • the fact that with 16 Dex you can actually get pretty good EV, especially with Vp apt
  • all those unspent enchant armour and acq scrolls sitting in your inventory
  • Heroism that isn't active for whatever reason
  • or the fact that you were casting Hexes while being lethally poisoned and adjacent to a swamp worm instead of taking a step back and quaffing curing
  • or that it's an Arcane Marksperson who threw away the Crossbow, though the last one is fine I guess if you really want that book

Edit: edited to make it readable.

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Post Wednesday, 10th December 2014, 21:52

Re: Improving Hexes

Thats was a very dumb death, yes, i was a little pissed off because just before that i had wasted half of my resources while trying to charm something to help me kill a swamp dragon while being turned into a pig and running from alligators and harpies. everything was going south and when i tried to confuse that worm so i could kill it and go up to rest before everything on that floor catched up to me and it barely resisted, i just said "fuck it" and died, like most of my others deaths in swamp.
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Post Wednesday, 10th December 2014, 22:11

Re: Improving Hexes

CanOfWorms wrote:You have a paralyze spell (as pointed out earlier), it's EH. It's balanced by not being repeatedly spammable and a low spellpower because have you ever tried stabbing a paralyzed/sleeping monster with high Stealth/Dex/Short Blades? It's pretty ridiculous.


EH gets obsolete at lair, doesnt work on undead, not sure if it works on demons, so not really a paralyze spell. I dont care about how high of a number you can get with a stab, the whole point of stabbing is to one shot a target, otherwise there wouldnt be short blades...

CanOfWorms wrote:If you're having trouble dealing with enslaved monsters, then like I said earlier most enslaved monsters can be confused. You also get a stab opportunity if you attack an enslaved monster so there's a chance you one shot it. Alternatively, have you considered telling it to wait and walk away from it? One benefit from high stealth is having the option to avoid some fights.


yeah you can send charmed monsters away from you, and then you can stumble on them later while trying to run from other monsters.
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Post Wednesday, 10th December 2014, 22:23

Re: Improving Hexes

dynast wrote:EH gets obsolete at lair

Hydras and other cold-blooded dudes are extra-vulnerable IIRC, and there are plenty of targets with bad MR that you might wanna instakill past Lair. Yaktaurs, giants (yeah, including stone and fire ones), probably more.

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Post Wednesday, 10th December 2014, 22:49

Re: Improving Hexes

hexes has a level 3 spell that has a decent chance of instant killing most things (dazzle, confuse), a level 2 spell that trivializes the early game, a level 4 thats better than instant kill and works consistently even in zot 1-4, and a level 6 that lets you avoid/instant kill about half the monsters in the game

so what's wrong with hexes again?

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Post Wednesday, 10th December 2014, 22:50

Re: Improving Hexes

If by the time you're fighting fire giants EH is your best option something's very wrong.

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Post Wednesday, 10th December 2014, 22:55

Re: Improving Hexes

I'm not sure, but I think it was a pretty good option on this character:

http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Sar/morgue-Sar-20140814-212016.txt

I took distort dagger from Psyche knowingly and willingly, and it was a good weapon, but sometimes I didn't really want to blink a dude around so I would EH it (if possible) and then go for the one-shot. Combined with good defences and HP it worked well enough.
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Post Wednesday, 10th December 2014, 22:55

Re: Improving Hexes

dynast wrote:EH gets obsolete at lair,


Ahahaha, what?

  Code:
Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 | 19-21 | 22-24 | 25-27 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
 Cast: Ensorcelled Hiber |    11 |    39 |    90 |   171 |   223 |    79 |    91 |    90 |   216 ||  1010
       Confuse           |       |     4 |     3 |    40 |    73 |     5 |     9 |    21 |   100 ||   255
       Enslavement       |       |       |     6 |     4 |     5 |       |       |       |       ||    15
       Corona            |       |       |       |     3 |       |       |       |       |       ||     3
       Cause Fear        |       |       |       |       |     1 |       |       |       |       ||     1
       Invisibility      |       |       |       |       |       |    20 |    40 |    32 |    95 ||   187


I actually used it a lot in lair. Probably more than any other branch. You get a lot of dangerous, single targets (hydras, mambas, spiny frogs), which is where I find EH shines.

Your spellpower looks pretty high to boot. I'm guessing it wouldn't take more than three ish tries to confuse a hydra, at which point it's a simple matter to walk up and hit it.

And of course if things go badly you have bat form to the rescue, against 90% of threats.

dynast wrote:doesnt work on undead, not sure if it works on demons,


It is loads of fun and broken. It's a guaranteed stab on a dude once it succeeds, which shouldn't take more than 4 or 5 turns, and from there it's a one shot kill. Most other characters would have to spend a lot longer in honorable melee combat or blasting expensive conjurations.

It also works on demons. (The hellion looks drowsy...)

dynast wrote:yeah you can send charmed monsters away from you, and then you can stumble on them later while trying to run from other monsters.


Crawl lets you stab your allies. In that sense it's a step up on Confuse since you don't have to chase your target around in circles, although they will be immediately uncharmed if you deal any damage to it (if its still alive after that)

There are also other ways of getting stabs, including distracting them with summons or throwing a net at them.

Actually, before you worry about stabbing dudes, work on your dodging! That's a much bigger concern than whining about why hexes don't work. I find myself standing in front of hard hitting brutes for a few turns trying to get a hex off, and your defenses need to be up to snatch if you want to stay alive. The best stabs are the ones where the opponent is right next to you, and practically that might mean standing right next to them while casting EH.
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Post Wednesday, 10th December 2014, 23:32

Re: Improving Hexes

Lyrick wrote:
  Code:
Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 | 19-21 | 22-24 | 25-27 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
 Cast: Ensorcelled Hiber |    11 |    39 |    90 |   171 |   223 |    79 |    91 |    90 |   216 ||  1010
       Confuse           |       |     4 |     3 |    40 |    73 |     5 |     9 |    21 |   100 ||   255
       Enslavement       |       |       |     6 |     4 |     5 |       |       |       |       ||    15
       Corona            |       |       |       |     3 |       |       |       |       |       ||     3
       Cause Fear        |       |       |       |       |     1 |       |       |       |       ||     1
       Invisibility      |       |       |       |       |       |    20 |    40 |    32 |    95 ||   187



can i have the morgue of that game?
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Post Wednesday, 10th December 2014, 23:39

Re: Improving Hexes

notcluie wrote:hexes has a level 3 spell that has a decent chance of instant killing most things (dazzle, confuse), a level 2 spell that trivializes the early game, a level 4 thats better than instant kill and works consistently even in zot 1-4, and a level 6 that lets you avoid/instant kill about half the monsters in the game

so what's wrong with hexes again?


What makes you think you need hexes to achieve any of that?

Its like saying haste is why we have charms school.

Also, never mentioned theres something wrong with hexes, theres only room for improvement, or not, seems like i cant see how perfect hexes are, despite the fact im talking about hexes in general and people keep coming back at me with stabbing.
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Post Wednesday, 10th December 2014, 23:45

Re: Improving Hexes

What is the actual problem with hexes that you think should be addressed? Your conclusion does not state this clearly.

There are definitely things about the design of how many hexes work that is questionable; specifically, things relating to how MR works and hexes being all-or-nothing. However you have not clearly mentioned specifically what design problems you see, nor have you considered potention solutions as far as I can see.

I will state that hexes are not, from a player standpoint, underpowered in any way. If anything, they are noticeably too strong.

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Post Thursday, 11th December 2014, 00:32

Re: Improving Hexes

crate wrote:What is the actual problem with hexes that you think should be addressed? Your conclusion does not state this clearly.


Before i created this topic i thought hexes were more than just "stabbing opportunity creators", but i changed my mind.
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Post Thursday, 11th December 2014, 02:53

Re: Improving Hexes

Most hexes want high spell power and thus fairly heavy investment. Also, following the hexes-charms split from a ways back, it took a while for hexes to get up a decent number of dual school spells, and perhaps that promoted an idea of hexes being an insular school that is only good for stabbers. It is better now that there is some conj/hexes synergy, though, and metabolic englaciation was changed to be more generally useful, and some other hexes spells were added that are good for non-stabbers, some of which are actually bad for stabbing, in fact.

Now, it is still the case that, for a lot of characters, if you've invested a certain amount in that subset of hexes that support stabbing, before getting too much skill in some type of non-short blades melee, then sure, you probably want to dedicate enough experience to be able to stab, because... Why not?

Nonetheless, there are still good hexes that don't revolve (or don't need to revolve) around stabbing in order to be worthwhile. Enchanters are obviously focused on stabbing, and hibernation is pretty bad without stabbing, but even from the stabbing background's starting book, confuse and enslavement and dazzling spray don't actually require stabbing in order to be useful (it turns out that confusing an enemy before you fight it makes it a lot less dangerous, even when you don't get good stab damage against it!), and corona and sure blade support normal melee, ranged, and even conjurations much more so than stabbing.

Lots of other hexes are good without stabbing, and I've used them to satisfaction without stabbing on plenty of characters. Metabolic englaciation is a very strong spell, in particular, and one that I have picked up on many of my ice elementalists. Some people don't like the targeting mechanism of it, but dazzling spray is a solid choice for someone using conjurations if they can pick it up relatively early, and it appears in the conjuror's book. (On the subject, fulminant prism tends to be underestimated, IMHO, it is a good spell.) Arcane Marksman class is focused on hexes, but is not particularly about stabbing, though you could develop in that direction (and on a vampire, that might have been a good idea, but it wasn't required or anything). Cause Fear is quite obviously not about stabbing—nor are Darkness and Discord, at the higher level.

So in conclusion, no, I don't think hexes are too narrow; the game actually has a lot of support for using hexes without stabbing (not to mention hex-like effects via wands, needles, and nets, certain god abilities, etc., if you want). Certainly hexes as a school are much less narrow in their application than transmutations, and arguably less so than conjurations.

I hope you'll pardon the bluntness, but the reason you were frustrated by the character whose morgue you linked to is because you had made a lot of questionable choices in how you built and how you were playing the character.

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Post Thursday, 11th December 2014, 04:01

Re: Improving Hexes

and into wrote:So in conclusion, no, I don't think hexes are too narrow; the game actually has a lot of support for using hexes without stabbing (not to mention hex-like effects via wands, needles, and nets, certain god abilities, etc., if you want). Certainly hexes as a school are much less narrow in their application than transmutations, and arguably less so than conjurations.


Thank you for your feedback, you saved this topic from becoming a meta game discussion.

I havent tried Metabolic Englaciation for a while, it used to be really bad (slowing most enemies for about 2 turns or so) i might try it on my next run.

I like the Arcane marksman background, it shows the potential for crowd crontrol that the hex school have, the recent changes and new spells like Gell's Gravitas might make the hexes more appealing too.
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Post Thursday, 11th December 2014, 05:35

Re: Improving Hexes

This is a pretty minor point, but yeah I just did a little test of metabolic E. in wizmode, and on a vp with 8 spellcasting, 10 hexes, 10 ice, and 20 intelligence (which gave 48 out of the max of 200 spellpower), it slowed a stone giant a bit less than 4 out of 5 times (not counting miscasts). One time the slowness only lasted 4 turns (including the turn to cast), that was the shortest, but I also had the slow last as long as 13 or 14 turns. Against cold blooded or cold-vulnerable enemies it is even harder to resist and (I think?) will last longer on average. It is a solid spell.

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Post Thursday, 11th December 2014, 06:06

Re: Improving Hexes

Englaciation is almost certainly a spell that is actually good but feels like it's awful.

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Post Thursday, 11th December 2014, 07:27

Re: Improving Hexes

dynast wrote:
crate wrote:What is the actual problem with hexes that you think should be addressed? Your conclusion does not state this clearly.


Before i created this topic i thought hexes were more than just "stabbing opportunity creators", but i changed my mind.
confusing touch, corona, slow, sure blade, dazzling spray, inner flame, spectral weapon, cause fear, enslavement, leda's liquefaction, fulminant prism, metabolic englaciation, silence, tukima's dance, darkness, discord
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Post Thursday, 11th December 2014, 09:06

Re: Improving Hexes

(I'm currently playing a MfWn that started with a +2 spear, a ring mail and Corona. I was happy to find a book of Debilitation quite early, and Slow and Enslavement have been extremely good (currently in Shoals). And for anything that resists, well, I'm with Makhleb.)

The problem with Hexes is that without consulting to spoilers, you don't know if a target is hexable. The messages help, of course, but it's boring to have to try a few times for making an estimation on whether your just wasting your time and mana.
DCSS: 97:...MfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}
FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz}
{PaBeDjFi}OgAKPaCAGnCjOgCKMfAEAtCKSpCjDEEE{HOSu
Bloat: 17: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa}{ArEtZoNb}KiPaAnDrBXDBQOApDaMeAGBiOCNKAsFnFlUs{RoBoNeWi
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Post Thursday, 11th December 2014, 22:50

Re: Improving Hexes

dynast wrote:can i have the morgue of that game?


http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Lyric ... 190418.txt

Check out the skill progression in Lair. 16 dodging by lair:8, pretty solid.

Arcane marksman is not a bad start, but I hate ammo backgrounds.
114491 | Pan | Entered the realm of Gloorx Vloq.
114491 | Pan | Noticed Gloorx Vloq
114492 | Pan | Killed Gloorx Vloq

true lords of shadow NEVER sleep

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Post Saturday, 13th December 2014, 05:57

Re: Improving Hexes

http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Dynas ... 023418.txt

Well, there goes another try, that was a good run though, i had some trouble by not finding a vampiric brand throughout the first 5 runes, or decent armor until i decided to enchant some dragon hides i left behind.

I sealed my fate by trying to find a HW wand at zigg, which i consider a core item for a extended vampire run, that or worshipping makhleb.

I made most of the early game with corona and slow, crippling my foes so they couldnt outmatch me in combat, later i went for the classic enslave+inner flame, turning the odds against my enemies, later on i skipped metabolic englaciation and went straight for mass confusion, because getting to a spot where only one can be fought at once, while confusing all to hit one another was the best choice(also because ME doesnt work on anything thats cold resistant).

I also got tukima's dance, which i mostly used against ettins due to the fact its hard to find targets that deserved being disarmed, you cant use on ranged weapon users(which would be useful) and it falls off as soon as the target dies. One of my core spells was Spectral Weapon, which, despite being a very suicidal spell, helped me kill most things, including cerebov(somehow), unfortunately, it doesnt work against invisible targets(which is lame, i mean, why cant the sword see what you see? and why would it need to since it just mimics your swings...).

Finally, i put my hands on Discord, which carried me through the rest of the game(and to my dust grave pot). It is an amazing spell, that multiplies the number of monsters against each other, making a single orc warrior kill dragons for you, making pan lords summon friendly creatures and even ancient mummies triggering friendly death curses(thats a bug to be fixed i think). That is, until you run up to 5 stars demons that are magic immune, then you learn tornado.

So, my current thoughts are that hexes are used to disable, cripple or turn enemies against each other and that the crippling part is the one that needs improvement, like Spectral weapon being able to hit invisible targets, tumika's dance disarming bow/xbow(they can just leave the owners hand and do nothing, thats enough to be useful), and some endgame spell(level 9 probably) that damages foes, while applying some sort of debuff(and its not apocalypse)...
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Post Saturday, 13th December 2014, 12:00

Re: Improving Hexes

dynast wrote:tumika's dance disarming bow/xbow(they can just leave the owners hand and do nothing, thats enough to be useful)
this exists, its called "enslavement"
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Post Saturday, 13th December 2014, 14:10

Re: Improving Hexes

dynast wrote:http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Dynast/morgue-Dynast-20141213-023418.txt

Well, there goes another try, that was a good run though, i had some trouble by not finding a vampiric brand throughout the first 5 runes, or decent armor until i decided to enchant some dragon hides i left behind.

I sealed my fate by trying to find a HW wand at zigg, which i consider a core item for a extended vampire run, that or worshipping makhleb.

I made most of the early game with corona and slow, crippling my foes so they couldnt outmatch me in combat, later i went for the classic enslave+inner flame, turning the odds against my enemies, later on i skipped metabolic englaciation and went straight for mass confusion, because getting to a spot where only one can be fought at once, while confusing all to hit one another was the best choice(also because ME doesnt work on anything thats cold resistant).

I also got tukima's dance, which i mostly used against ettins due to the fact its hard to find targets that deserved being disarmed, you cant use on ranged weapon users(which would be useful) and it falls off as soon as the target dies. One of my core spells was Spectral Weapon, which, despite being a very suicidal spell, helped me kill most things, including cerebov(somehow), unfortunately, it doesnt work against invisible targets(which is lame, i mean, why cant the sword see what you see? and why would it need to since it just mimics your swings...).

Finally, i put my hands on Discord, which carried me through the rest of the game(and to my dust grave pot). It is an amazing spell, that multiplies the number of monsters against each other, making a single orc warrior kill dragons for you, making pan lords summon friendly creatures and even ancient mummies triggering friendly death curses(thats a bug to be fixed i think). That is, until you run up to 5 stars demons that are magic immune, then you learn tornado.

So, my current thoughts are that hexes are used to disable, cripple or turn enemies against each other and that the crippling part is the one that needs improvement, like Spectral weapon being able to hit invisible targets, tumika's dance disarming bow/xbow(they can just leave the owners hand and do nothing, thats enough to be useful), and some endgame spell(level 9 probably) that damages foes, while applying some sort of debuff(and its not apocalypse)...


  Code:
 - Level 2.1(7.1) Dodging
114491 | Pan | Entered the realm of Gloorx Vloq.
114491 | Pan | Noticed Gloorx Vloq
114492 | Pan | Killed Gloorx Vloq

true lords of shadow NEVER sleep

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Post Saturday, 13th December 2014, 14:43

Re: Improving Hexes

dynast wrote:I sealed my fate by trying to find a HW wand at zigg, which i consider a core item for a extended vampire run, that or worshipping makhleb.


Not that it has anything to do with the topic at hand, but do you realize that switching to Makhleb and surviving Okawaru's wrath would have been far, far easier than clearing a zig in the hope of a drop that's in no way guaranteed?

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Post Saturday, 13th December 2014, 17:37

Re: Improving Hexes

notcluie wrote:
dynast wrote:tumika's dance disarming bow/xbow(they can just leave the owners hand and do nothing, thats enough to be useful)
this exists, its called "enslavement"


So you think they should remove tukima's dance?
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Post Saturday, 13th December 2014, 17:39

Re: Improving Hexes

asdu wrote:Not that it has anything to do with the topic at hand, but do you realize that switching to Makhleb and surviving Okawaru's wrath would have been far, far easier than clearing a zig in the hope of a drop that's in no way guaranteed?


Yes i do. In fact, i had to go through some oka's penance on the first zig, which was just using discord and walking away, i was very confident and decided to go for the last zig floor, i also love doing zigs so thats another thing...
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Post Saturday, 13th December 2014, 17:59

Re: Improving Hexes

Lyrick wrote:
  Code:
 - Level 2.1(7.1) Dodging


I died surrounded by brimstome fiends hellfireblasting me so it makes total sense to blame it on dodging, right?

  Code:
 Escaped with the Orb
             ... and 12 runes on Nov 23, 2014!
             
             The game lasted 17:56:56 (186247 turns).


I could go nitpicking about your run too, starting with why it took you 180k turn and you didnt get all the runes, but that would dismiss completely the topic and it would also be rude to tell what other people should do based off my opinion.
You shall never see my color again.

Sar

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Post Saturday, 13th December 2014, 18:58

Re: Improving Hexes

  Code:
The reaper hits you from afar with a scythe of protection!!
You die...


Edit: that said, you probably didn't die due to lack of Dodging (even if technically, you did die to a dodgeable attack). That said, I'm not sure that morgue supports "Hexes are bad" argument either. If anything, they allowed you to crush the earlygame on mediocre species while not training your primary defence!

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Post Saturday, 13th December 2014, 20:41

Re: Improving Hexes

Sar wrote:Edit: that said, you probably didn't die due to lack of Dodging (even if technically, you did die to a dodgeable attack).


Then why did you mention it?

Sar wrote:That said, I'm not sure that morgue supports "Hexes are bad" argument either.


Where did i mention "hexes are bad" on my last reply? I hope you read my CURRENT thoughts on the matter, because those might change in the future(as you guys convinced me that "ME is the best hex spell in the game" and somehow connected it with "hexes doesnt need improvement")

Sar wrote:If anything, they allowed you to crush the earlygame on mediocre species while not training your primary defence!


My primary defence is HP(according to my playstyle, at least) and i have yet to see any school that doesnt allow the player to crush the earlygame(maybe summoning?).
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Sar

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Post Saturday, 13th December 2014, 22:23

Re: Improving Hexes

dynast wrote:i have yet to see any school that doesnt allow the player to crush the earlygame

Translocations.

Barkeep

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Post Saturday, 13th December 2014, 23:14

Re: Improving Hexes

Alright, I think this thread has really run its course, and perhaps gone on too long, so I am locking it. This forum is for discussing ways to improve the game, but this thread has become more about advice and also about ziggurats, which are neither here nor there. If someone feels strongly about letting it continue, I'm open to hearing arguments, just PM me.

dynast, if you come up with a specific proposal for a(nother) cool high-level hex spell (we already have discord), or if you want to discuss a buff to tukima's dance, by all means, post a new thread about that in GDD, with a specific proposal (following the usual guidelines, of course). Less fleshed out ideas for a change to TD or for a high level hex can begin in CYC.

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