Idea for felid rework


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Mines Malingerer

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Post Friday, 24th October 2014, 22:47

Idea for felid rework

I have an idea for a felid ability: telekinetic wielding. Basically, felids, acting as servants for their masters, had the natural ability to carry things telekinetically with their mind to aid their masters (which explains their awesome aptitude for translocations magic). However, adventuring felids developed the talent to a greater extent, allowing them to wield weapons and equipment that couldn't normally be wielded. This innate ability gives them a one-handed weapon slot which can be used to wield an item. However, since the weapon is telekinetically wielded instead of touched, felids do not gain any instrincs that would normally be provided by the item (such as resistances and bonuses to stats). However if the item can be evoked or grants evokable properities (such as +Inv) those are still available. Any brands present on items (such as flaming/distortion/whatever) will apply. Staff enchancers also function normally. Throwing weapons works normally, and ammunition can be fired with the requisite ranged weapon. Additionally, transformations will *not* meld this slot, instead your new form gets the auxillary attacks while you keep your weapon attacks.

If the weapon is melee, it takes some additional time to make the first attack, after that attacks are made with the weapon, combined with auxillary attacks from the felid.

Maybe allowing two-handed weapons at higher levels is a viable option?

Also what if felids had an armour slot for robes and a slot for hats: http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/ori ... wizard.jpg

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Saturday, 25th October 2014, 02:44

Re: Idea for felid rework

This proposal mostly seems to be "make Felids not Felids" to me. I mean, Felids do have a variety of defining traits - no wielding or wearing anything but jewelry, multiple lives, fast speed, terrible health - and this only removes the first one, but it's still removing one of the major drawbacks. You've given a flavor explanation for why Felids wielding weapons isn't completely implausible, but flavor has never been the top priority of Crawl's design. From a design standpoint, why should Felids be allowed to use weapons, robes, and hats? They're meant to be a challenge race, so "they're underpowered" isn't enough.

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Saturday, 25th October 2014, 04:06

Re: Idea for felid rework

They're actually meant to be the opposite of a challenge race or something. How about we rename this thread to "remove felids"? They're similar to spriggans but a lot worse so they need extra lives to compensate.

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Mines Malingerer

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Post Saturday, 25th October 2014, 14:21

Re: Idea for felid rework

I guess the point of the telekinetic weapon is to allow them to use weapon skills in a different way. I wonder if felids can be reworked viably though.

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Saturday, 25th October 2014, 14:58

Re: Idea for felid rework

Felids don't use weapons, It's kind of a major part of them like no healing on Deep dwarfs. Felids don't need reworking to the level you suggest (perhaps tweaks like aptitude adjustments, mutations).

If you want another way to use weapons, and a new species or god would be a better method then changing current species. Here's somthing you might like
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Saturday, 25th October 2014, 15:07

Re: Idea for felid rework

It's possible to make felids not awful by having them not have 40% less hp than normal species and have their claws develop into claws:3 over time, but then people would complain that they aren't fucking terrible.
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Post Saturday, 25th October 2014, 22:46

Re: Idea for felid rework

Bloax wrote:It's possible to make felids not awful by having them not have 40% less hp than normal species and have their claws develop into claws:3 over time, but then people would complain that they aren't fucking terrible.


Yeah, why not just 30% less or something?
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 25th October 2014, 23:11

Re: Idea for felid rework

I've long felt that felids with a reasonable hp apt (I'd like -10%, but -20% could work as a more conservative option) and no extra lives would make them less gimmicky. But I removing extra lives isn't really that critical, I don't think. Felids are pretty good as they are, imho. They absolutely succeed in terms of being radically different from the rest of the races, and while that presents problems, being so different makes crawl very different*, which is kind of their point.

*Until you realize you can just statue form them to get high ac and bonus hp and then they play more or less normally.

Slime Squisher

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Post Monday, 27th October 2014, 10:51

Re: Idea for felid rework

It is refreshing to play felid after all "traditional" species, I agree with that. On the other hand, the design has several major issues which cause me to avoid playing cats.

The first problem: Felids get boring quickly. There is not so much difference between each felid, especially on non-book starts. Get high fighting, unarmed combat, dodging, stealth and whatever suits your findings (so probably evoc + charms). No armour and no weapon might be called an elegant simplicity, but it might be also called an extreme dullness.
What do you think about giving felids an ability to craft jewelry? Each player could tune them to their play-style and to the needs.

The second problem: felids are extremely annoying and luck-dependent. No matter how hard one works on improving their defenses, felines are constantly one or two hits from losing life. I'm not sure whether these low HPs have to be changed - eventually unavoidable deaths are a part of Crawl and at least felids get multiple lives. Nevertheless, these deaths are not fun anymore to me, they're just nuisance.

The third problem: multiple lives. The idea is great at first glance, but it does not balance cat's weakness. Not only a character is revived with reduced level (so the next death is even more likely), but also it still does not get any way to deal with encountered problems (I.e. enemies capable of one-shooting a felid). I'd love to see felids returning to life on the same XL. Maybe also the point where they respawn could be chosen (to some degree) to avoid streak-deaths which unfortunately sometimes happen.

Unless something changes, felids will be simply on the wrong side of the border between what's interesting and what's just freakish.

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Post Tuesday, 28th October 2014, 14:54

Re: Idea for felid rework

I did some further research upon felids which led to interesting discoveries.

Win ratio per species:
  Code:
!lg * 0.15 !quit  s=crace / win o=%
Felid is somewhere in the middle amongst all species with result: 25/1776x Felid [1.41%]

Win ratio per species for characters that reached XL 10:
  Code:
0.15 !quit xl>10  s=crace / win o=%
First result: 25/106x Felid [23.58%]

Win ratio per species for characters that reached XL 20:
  Code:
!lg * 0.15 !quit xl>20  s=crace / win o=%
First result: 25/31x Felid [80.65%]

Such results suggest that felids are actually not pussies and they do not need further boosting (especially after they level up a bit). On the other hand, felids were the third least played species in 0.15. If only experienced players chose felids, that would explain high win rate amongst them (and low game count). Should not felids be interesting enough to appeal also to new players, especially if they are "easily" winnable? Whatever the truth is, I am baffled.

(I am really not happy with felid, which occupies bottom of my favorite species list after recent demigod update.)

Shoals Surfer

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Post Tuesday, 28th October 2014, 15:06

Re: Idea for felid rework

Bart wrote:Such results suggest that felids are actually not pussies and they do not need further boosting (especially after they level up a bit). On the other hand, felids were the third least played species in 0.15. If only experienced players chose felids, that would explain high win rate amongst them (and low game count). Should not felids be interesting enough to appeal also to new players, especially if they are "easily" winnable? Whatever the truth is, I am baffled.


Book felids are generally good combos. Ranged attacking via conjurations coupled with .8 turn movement is a very strong combination. However, using this combination to maximum effect gets pretty tedious, and felids immense weakness in most other departments makes it kind of a necessity. So while there are definitely worse species than Fe in terms of having access to pretty easy to win combos (I'd say Fo, Mu, Op for sure), they are definitely near the bottom of the barrel in terms of pleasantness to play.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 28th October 2014, 15:09

Re: Idea for felid rework

Felids are very good late game where you can die twice and still continue playing.

Dungeon Master

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Post Tuesday, 28th October 2014, 15:35

Re: Idea for felid rework

Bart wrote:If only experienced players chose felids, that would explain high win rate amongst them (and low game count). Should not felids be interesting enough to appeal also to new players, especially if they are "easily" winnable? Whatever the truth is, I am baffled.

My personal biases provoke me to say that it's more likely to me that only inexperienced players play felids, because experienced players have already tried them and know what they're like. I personally find felids to be the least fun race by a huge margin, but I have been told that they have an audience.

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Post Tuesday, 28th October 2014, 17:48

Re: Idea for felid rework

Bart wrote:Win ratio per species:
  Code:
!lg * 0.15 !quit  s=crace / win o=%
Felid is somewhere in the middle amongst all species with result: 25/1776x Felid [1.41%]

Win ratio per species for characters that reached XL 10:
  Code:
0.15 !quit xl>10  s=crace / win o=%
First result: 25/106x Felid [23.58%]

Win ratio per species for characters that reached XL 20:
  Code:
!lg * 0.15 !quit xl>20  s=crace / win o=%
First result: 25/31x Felid [80.65%]

There are also some other interesting statistics:
  Code:
!lg * 0.15 xl>10 s=crace / quit o=%
<Sequell> 154/13990 games for * (0.15 xl>10): 14/120x Felid [11.67%], 11/343x High Elf [3.21%], 20/696x Hill Orc [2.87%]
!lg * 0.15 xl>20 s=crace / quit o=%
<Sequell> 16/2667 games for * (0.15 xl>20): 2/33x Felid [6.06%], 2/50x Tengu [4.00%], 1/63x Octopode [1.59%]

(quit ratio rankings for xl>10 and 20, respectively)

Sandman25 wrote:Felids are very good late game where you can die twice and still continue playing.

  Code:
 90286 | Zot:5    | Reached XP level 23. HP: -1/114 MP: 33/50
 90286 | Zot:5    | Noticed an ancient lich
 90286 | Zot:5    | Noticed an orb of fire
Hmm...

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 28th October 2014, 18:03

Re: Idea for felid rework

Bart wrote:Win ratio per species for characters that reached XL 20:
  Code:
!lg * 0.15 !quit xl>20  s=crace / win o=%
First result: 25/31x Felid [80.65%]

That moment when you realize you're one of only 6 players to have killed of a .15 felid over level 20 <.< (damn you trog) (unless his query only counted people strictly over 20 - I never did hit 21. I may not be counted after all...)
Last edited by tasonir on Tuesday, 28th October 2014, 18:07, edited 1 time in total.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 28th October 2014, 18:07

Re: Idea for felid rework

stickyfingers wrote:
  Code:
 90286 | Zot:5    | Reached XP level 23. HP: -1/114 MP: 33/50
 90286 | Zot:5    | Noticed an ancient lich
 90286 | Zot:5    | Noticed an orb of fire
Hmm...


For all other species it would be game over.
I had 3 Felids reach Lair (FeDK of Yred, FeSk of Ash and FeMo of Nem) and amazingly all three won (FeSk even with 15 runes). All 3 felt quite different and were lots of fun. I am going to play a book background and Be some day because I think they will be different too. What am I doing wrong?

Abyss Ambulator

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Post Friday, 31st October 2014, 14:02

Re: Idea for felid rework

Felids should be able to use rods and blowguns (holding them in their mouths.)

Edit: and also a third ring or second amulet on their tail.
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Post Friday, 31st October 2014, 14:20

Re: Idea for felid rework

Jeremiah wrote:Felids should be able to use rods and blowguns (holding them in their mouths.)


No blowguns; loading and aiming is ridiculous.
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Post Saturday, 1st November 2014, 16:05

Re: Idea for felid rework

Jeremiah wrote:Felids should be able to use rods and blowguns (holding them in their mouths.)

Edit: and also a third ring or second amulet on their tail.

just rename them to octopodes if you do this

oh wait

(I think from a design standpoint letting felids use wands was a mistake because it made them significantly more similar to octopodes. Felids have plenty of other design problems too, though.)

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Post Saturday, 1st November 2014, 17:52

Re: Idea for felid rework

ackack wrote:
Bart wrote:Such results suggest that felids are actually not pussies and they do not need further boosting (especially after they level up a bit). On the other hand, felids were the third least played species in 0.15. If only experienced players chose felids, that would explain high win rate amongst them (and low game count). Should not felids be interesting enough to appeal also to new players, especially if they are "easily" winnable? Whatever the truth is, I am baffled.


Book felids are generally good combos. Ranged attacking via conjurations coupled with .8 turn movement is a very strong combination. However, using this combination to maximum effect gets pretty tedious, and felids immense weakness in most other departments makes it kind of a necessity. So while there are definitely worse species than Fe in terms of having access to pretty easy to win combos (I'd say Fo, Mu, Op for sure), they are definitely near the bottom of the barrel in terms of pleasantness to play.


This matches my experience. I cleared Dungeon, Lair, and Orc with a FeAE of Fedhas recently, it was the first time I'd ever gotten past the first few floors of Dungeon with a Felid. I think I was almost relieved when I died on Snake, probably the first time I've ever been relieved instead of disappointed to die after Lair. It was just boring and frustrating. Every enemy had to be kited if I had mana or run from if I didn't.

I guess Felids have their fans and I've got other races I like, but I definitely think the biggest problem with Felids isn't them being too weak (although being one-shot by a DE mage fireball before I got to Lair was a bit annoying), but them being incredibly tedious.

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Post Monday, 3rd November 2014, 21:05

Re: Idea for felid rework

The problem with felids is the same problem with Octopodes: there's no background that starts with a book that contains statue form. Statue form felids don't have to kite everything and are reasonably durable, although you still can't escape having low hp (but it's what, about 80% of normal? .6 + (.6 * .3). You're basically a (slightly slower) gargoyle at that point.

Looking at my two felid wins: Berserker and transmuter, the transmuter has 175 hp, the berserker has 130, despite the berseker having 4.6 more skill levels in fighting. And then there's the whole 3 ac vs 46 ac (counting a +4 ac ring on the transmuter). I'm not saying getting there is much fun, the early game can suck, just that there's a light at the end of the tunnel.

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Post Tuesday, 25th November 2014, 16:26

Re: Idea for felid rework

felids are quite good (extra lives, fast speed, innate gourmond, etc), but getting rid of their leap ability is actually a serious blow. With your extremely low health, taking out smiters and then kiting makes up a lot of your strategy up through orc4 and so. It was also extremely useful in spider for catching orb spiders. You don't have a shield so you get hit directly in the face by the OoD everytime. Bring back jump!

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Post Wednesday, 10th December 2014, 19:04

Re: Idea for felid rework

Actually I would say felid as gotten better and better over the last few versions (compared to version 0.12).

A recent change just gave felids stabbing bonus == to short swords and all short swords are == in stabbing.

So you can now play felid like a spriggan with mulligans. I was just playing a FeEn of Dith and I was just shocked how strong it is now.

The biggest problem I have had with felid is extended. HP becomes so critical and the things that felid are good at (hexes, stealth, dodging) matter far less if at all.

I propose a Robustness mutation (10% HP) granted at XL 27. Considering so few games have felids reaching XL 27 I don't think this would hurt the balance while providing more viable felid extended options (most felid extended use ddoor and/or a level 9 spell like fstorm or nado).

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Post Thursday, 11th December 2014, 06:23

Re: Idea for felid rework

Bart wrote:What do you think about giving felids an ability to craft jewelry? Each player could tune them to their play-style and to the needs.

That is the best idea in the entire thread.

1010011010 wrote:(perhaps tweaks like aptitude adjustments, mutations)

I like where you're going with that...

Jeremiah wrote:and also a third ring or second amulet on their tail

That is an obvious question as to why it is excluded.
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Post Thursday, 11th December 2014, 21:49

Re: Idea for felid rework

Felid Rework:

Give them 7 lives to start with. Don't penalize existing skills on resurrection. Instead, for every death, reduce potential maximum level/skill level by 2. Force-reduce to new maximum if already passed maximum. Toss-up on whether this affects attributes gained (it should).
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Post Thursday, 11th December 2014, 23:25

Re: Idea for felid rework

XuaXua wrote:Felid Rework:

Give them 7 lives to start with. Don't penalize existing skills on resurrection. Instead, for every death, reduce potential maximum level/skill level by 2. Force-reduce to new maximum if already passed maximum. Toss-up on whether this affects attributes gained (it should).


So, at the 6th death, you have a maximum of 15 to all skills? What could you possibly do with 15 to all skills? The current detriment to dying (losing an experience level) is already kinda harsh, but at least it doesn't mess with their potential. Besides which, currently, felids don't lose skills when they die.
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Post Friday, 12th December 2014, 08:10

Re: Idea for felid rework

Lyrick wrote:The current detriment to dying (losing an experience level) is already kinda harsh


Considering what happens to any other race when they die, calling losing a level harsh seems a bit silly.

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Post Friday, 12th December 2014, 16:50

Re: Idea for felid rework

Well, the biggest penalty of dying as a felid is that you still have to keep playing as a felid.

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Post Friday, 12th December 2014, 16:56

Re: Idea for felid rework

Lyrick wrote:
XuaXua wrote:Felid Rework:

Give them 7 lives to start with. Don't penalize existing skills on resurrection. Instead, for every death, reduce potential maximum level/skill level by 2. Force-reduce to new maximum if already passed maximum. Toss-up on whether this affects attributes gained (it should).


So, at the 6th death, you have a maximum of 15 to all skills? What could you possibly do with 15 to all skills?


A lot? With UC as your their melee option and no armour, a felid would be hit harder than other races by this, but a ton of characters finish with most skills around 15. This allows level 6 conjurations, cBlink, Haste, blade hands, shadow creatures...
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Post Friday, 12th December 2014, 16:58

Re: Idea for felid rework

Quazifuji wrote:Considering what happens to any other race when they die, calling losing a level harsh seems a bit silly.

Well, I may be one XL weaker, but at least all of Vaults:5 is awake now!

;)
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Post Friday, 12th December 2014, 17:00

Re: Idea for felid rework

hey i have an idea
what if the penalty for dying as a felid is
you lose one of your lives

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Post Saturday, 13th December 2014, 19:17

Re: Idea for felid rework

agentgt wrote:Actually I would say felid as gotten better and better over the last few versions (compared to version 0.12).

A recent change just gave felids stabbing bonus


Indeed. I did a FeCK the other day and stabbing was very strong. I would say that, like Sp, after finding a source of reliable invisibility [spell/evocable jewel], almost everything without sinv is a cakewalk.

sassy wrote:Bring back jump!


I very strongly agree with this. Jumping transferred felids for me from the "playable with a lot of patience" category to the "pleasure to play" one. Unique, interesting and very useful tactically - its worth was especially showcased in dangerous levels, like zot 5 or pan/hell, where even one wasted turn walking could cost you the battle. Just bring the ability back to felids and let the boots of jumping stay removed.

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