Pacified monsters improvement proposal

[Sar]

So I've played a game with Ely yesterday (and I've won a couple before) and it dawned on me that the way pacified monsters behave might just be the least fun and the most clunky thing in Crawl. Let me explain: when you successfully pacify a monster, it turns "neutral". After that, it attempts to find an exist (any kind of stairs or hatch). If another monster is on its way, it will attack it. If the player is on its way, it will attack the player (and if you retaliate you get penance, of course). I think if the player is just adjacent, it can attack it (not sure). Also, sometimes if it can't find a way (?) it will just stand in one place for hundreds of turns. This creates situations like pacifying a monster in an open space and initiating autoexplore only for it to be cancelled because the neutral monster got in your way. Pacifying monsters in corridors is an enormous pain (I remember opening up a vault with long, spiral corridors and it was just the worst thing).

Now, there are ways to solve it.The most radical is to make monsters disappear instantly after pacification. I'm not a huge fan of that - it's probably better than the status quo (it's infinitely less annoying at least), but it just feels wrong to me, making pacification seem like even more of an instakill. Also, you won't be able to pacify a yak in the middle of a yak pack and get a free meal, if you want a gameplay reason.

My proposal is different: after you pacify a monster, it attempts to leave your line of sight. When it succeeds, it disappears. The only problem I see here is: what happens if a player deliberately follows this monster? Should it go for stairs then? Should it just run around? I don't know, what do you think?

[dpeg]

We know. As you can imagine, this has been discussed time and again over the years.

I don't think I've ever heard the idea that monsters disappear as soon as they are out of sight. That sounds very good. I'd assume that if you follow them, they just won't disappear?

[Sar]

Well the alternative is that they will go to stairs eventually. It's okay by me if they just keep moving because the player will run out of food eventually and starve - I'm just not sure about where should they move if the player is curious.

They could also try to move out of LoS first and to the nearest stairs second, I imagine it being non-trivial to implement though. This way though, a curious player will eventually find them using stairs or a hatch, which ~makes sense~

[dpeg]

Sar: Yes. As you said, the idea of them vanishing right away is just too drastic (also removes interesting gameplay options, like pacifying one yak in a corridor, amidst other yaks). I guess we've been tied up too much in "realism" to see your solution. I made a private note on this, hopefully we can improve the Elyvilon game sometime soon. Many thanks!

[nago]

I like that

Anyway, I'd use this topic to add another thing which bother me of Ely: sometimes it happens to me to pacify monster who have gear I could be interested. This is often the case of very common monsters (e.g. plain orcs or goblins) who usually don't have nothing of interest but sometimes grab good loot from the floor, so it's quite annoying to check every 100000 specimens for one or two who may should be slain in all the game.
Would be possible to add a message (configurable in the rc) that warn the player?
The most elegant solution I can think it's probably to cast the warning if the monster has something which is in the autopick options (e.g. unidentified rings).

[KoboldLord]

Having them vanish earlier will also help fix the issue of pacified monsters fighting regular monsters outside of LOS, which was stopped for summoning builds but not Elyvilon for some reason.

[Jeremiah]

I like that

Anyway, I'd use this topic to add another thing which bother me of Ely: sometimes it happens to me to pacify monster who have gear I could be interested. This is often the case of very common monsters (e.g. plain orcs or goblins) who usually don't have nothing of interest but sometimes grab good loot from the floor, so it's quite annoying to check every 100000 specimens for one or two who may should be slain in all the game.
Would be possible to add a message (configurable in the rc) that warn the player?
The most elegant solution I can think it's probably to cast the warning if the monster has something which is in the autopick options (e.g. unidentified rings).

What if pacified monsters just dropped everything they were carrying? (They're peaceful now, they don't need weapons, right?)

[nago]

Well, while mine it's just an interface request, that would slightly change pacification' balance - sometimes it's meaningful to choice between an easy pacification or a troublesome fight to get a potential good loot (e.g. orc warrior/knight/warlord when they're still dangerous). That would be especially true against foes in one time portal when you can't return later and stronger for an easy kill.
Plus in that way you would always get also items you can't know a monster has until he's dead (e.g. scrolls, gold)

Obliviously both solve the problem, but the choice (including if implement one ) it's in the hand of developers

[Wahaha]

Make them vanish a few turns after they left LOS, like 5 turns for example. That way it's a bit more realistic than if the monster moves out of LOS and then the player moves towards the monster right away and it's already gone.

[Siegurt]

The only problem that I see with this is if they disappear *immediately* there are a couple tactical options I lose. The only notable one is when I use a pacified critter to stuff up a hallway and prevent faster-than-me things from following me so I can escape.

For example I might want to pacify a poison-resistant critter in a hallway to prevent a swarm of killer bees from overtaking me so I can escape, if the pacified critter disappears as soon as it's out of LOS I have that many fewer turns until the killer bees can catch up, likely before I can even get to a fully escapable position.

Now maybe it's scummy to be able to use pacified creatures in this manner, I'm not sure, but it is a fairly powerful facet of pacification that'd be removed if the change was as-suggested.

Also pacifying creatures with the intention of them blundering through a pack of monsters doing damage and eventually dying so you can get their equipment/corpse might be less safe and/or possibly just not as easy, although I would personally consider this much less of a loss.

[XuaXua]

I don't get why it's wrong to have a pacified monster act as an ally for movement purposes (swap positions).

I do not understand why that is not the way it is done. The monster doesn't need to attack, it just needs to get by. Keep it like it is and just let them pass through the player when the player moves onto their square and vice/versa, just like an ally that you cannot command.

[Quazifuji]

I don't get why it's wrong to have a pacified monster act as an ally for movement purposes (swap positions).

I do not understand why that is not the way it is done. The monster doesn't need to attack, it just needs to get by. Keep it like it is and just let them pass through the player when the player moves onto their square and vice/versa, just like an ally that you cannot command.

Like Jiyva's Jellies, then. Different behavior, but the same "you can switch places, but can't command them and get no XP from their kills" part.

[Sar]

Actually yeah, I was thinking once of how jello neutrality is so much better. Not sure why I forgot about then when it came to writing this proposal.

[XuaXua]

Actually yeah, I was thinking once of how jello neutrality is so much better. Not sure why I forgot about then when it came to writing this proposal.

Using the Jiyva "neutral" allows them to still be obstacles for enemies, which is pretty cool, but not be outright allies.