evocables and magic schools

[snow]

i've always found evocables to be sort of lack luster except for wands/cards, and even then nemelex sort of sucks now.
i've never been like woohoo bag of spiders! or whatever... usually whatever spells or axe i have does the job fine. if not, god ability.

what if evocables didn't suck and to justify that, they used magic schools and evocations? and i know people are going to be like 'but they don't suck' but they do and they right now are basically 'win mores' in that if they're helpful in any way they help you in areas you already have covered and and never a cornerstone utility (like that one thing you rarely use but it's vital when you use it) or main kill-dude-tool-thing like an axe or the tab key with earth magic spells.

i'm thinking like lamp of fire can do fire storms with 27 fire magic and 27 evocations, or even bolt of fire somewhat early before you can just spam fire bolts from the spell. or maybe you rub the lamp and are embued with wizardry for fire spells and rf+, rc- and your axe causes sticky flames or something for a few turns

[Siegurt]

Currently l find lamp of fire to be somewhere between fire bolt and fire storm power wise at high evocation, as well as being different enough from both that it is still interesting to decide when to use it.

Making evocation as an alternate way of casting the same spells sounds like a step backwards to me.

[Sar]

The only thing that sucks about evocables is that they sort of make a mess out of your inventory but that was recently partially fixed. Think of them as escape items/buffs, you don't complain that potion of might is useless because you can just use your axe more or cast Fire Storm or whatever? Yes, I know that they require some Evo training for them to be effective but you don't need 27 Evo for them to be useful and most races have good Evo apt.

[snow]

potions of might are a vital utility, and can almost always turn the tides in your favor unless you're poisoned with like 15 hp and a spiney frog comes into view any even then it might still save you. lamp of fire could also save you, if you invested in it, but so could any other investments, and the others tend to be more useful in my experience.

i could see if you were playing nemelex, but other than that, what combos (incl. god) would benifit from an investment for evocables? rather than more dodging/armour, some invo for your god, or getting some utility spell online like meph cloud or sticky flame?

[Sar]

what combos (incl. god) would benifit from an investment for evocables

Be, obviously. Also Ash dudes, I guess. Generally, anything in heavy armour that wants some other combat option. Mind you, 10-15ish Evo makes most XP evocables well worth carrying.

rather than more dodging/armour

Well, I'm sure you are well aware of how skill cost increase raises with the increase of skills. Choosing between, what are the numbers, 27 Armour and 0 Evo or 22 Armour and 20 Evo, the latter option seems more appealing, unless you have literally no good evocable items.

some utility spell online like meph cloud or sticky flame

I don't consider those utility spells and don't get on them on characters that aren't earlygame mages. Though those are strong spells, I suppose.

[Sprucery]

It seems that my characters typically end up with about 12 - 15 Evo in any case and I collect all lamps, fans and phials I find, no matter what the combo. They are extremely useful for dangerous fights. Sacks of spiders are also great in the early/mid game and in Elf. Box of beasts loses it's appeal faster. Stone of tremors is problematic because it removes walls.

Like Sar said, the only problematic thing about evocables is that they take so much inventory space.

[Sar]

Sacks of spiders are also great in the early/mid game

Sack of spiders is good forever, I've seen Cerebov being finished by it (trapdoor spider I think) and coverall covering everything but you in nets and spiders is pretty neat.

Edit: until you try to move in one of your nets I guess.

[crate]

evocations are much closer to overpowered than underpowered right now

(and there are a few that are blatantly overpowered; the biggest offender here is lantern of shadows, though sack of spiders might fall here too)

not training evocations is a challenge run with crawl the way it is now

[celem]

Crate ninja'd me a bit so i'll summarise.

Evokables are over-powered, not lack-lustre. Perhaps 1 in 10 characters I make doesnt use them. Even that 1 in 10 probably still should be...

Possibly the OP hasnt tried the elemental ones recently, I understand they were buffed recently (before my time). The fact that they now stack in Trunk is one of the greatest things ever, I'm often carrying 5 of each of the rechargers along with a disc.

Any character that I make that isnt focused caster (multiple lvl 9s) is going to carry every single phial, fan, lamp and stone he can get his mitts on. One disc obviously. I havent played about much with spiders or beasts. But I will be firing the evokables constantly by the time I approach extended.

Basically they are high level conjurations on-demand mana-free (and hunger-free) for far less XP cost than actually getting equivalent spells online. 5 Lamps and 15 evoke will kill Antaeus for you while you tap 's' and watch. Fan of Gales is an excellent escape tool (only something constricting you will remain in contact it seems). Phial of floods will swing any melee vs someone who isnt amphibeous/flier. Stone of Tremors is the odd man out, hes a bit situational, but used in a crowded Vaults room immediately after a Fan is one of the most destructive combos around. The Disc of Storms is the single most destructive power in the game, far in excess of lvl 9 spells, and the one you need to chase Evoke all the way for to bring down the fail %. Be wary with the disc, but used right it is an earth-shatterer. (Hasted Gr with disc on V5 stair is really quite fun)

They are as a rule far more powerful than any combat wand in the game, more on par with rods, even by say...10 Evoke. I tend to aim for 15 for the regular ones, 20 if I want the DoS for V5/Tomb3

Cant see that they need any help, if anything they are candidates for a downgrade.

E: good point above about Ashenzarites. No excuses for those guys, you can power the evocables with scant xp investments, both my winners followed Ash as heavy fighters with some lower lvl spells and gratuitous evocable spam.
E2: @OP: a lamp of fire with 27 evoke is already practically a firestorm

[Sprucery]

I also want to add that personally I don't usually even pick up lanterns because using them somehow feels so wrong (a bit like I didn't engrave Elbereth in Nethack I guess).

I also did V:5 with a disc once, very fun.