Proposal: Early Trample

[Greyr]

Is there any pre lair enemy with trample? Elephants are the earliest enemy that come to mind. Frankly, mid-lair seems to be kind of late to introduce a potentially devastating ability. Why not introduce a relatively weak, yet trampling enemy earlier on? It will let the player know that it can happen before they're mauled by a pack of elephants, or worse... At the very least it will add a little bit of spice to the early game without being something ridiculous like adding torment or hellfire

It also mitigates a bit of stair dancing. Which I find myself doing quite a bit of early on. It forces the player to use other staircases, as opposed to encourages. A new player might not know just HOW dangerous a pack of orcs is, but charge in anyway. But when they're trampled and consequently stranded this literally shoves the player into a more careful kind of play-style.

Like I said, at the very least it would add spice without being absurd.

[PleasingFungus]

Trample is very far from being introduced "late", as crawl mechanics go - for example, in Snake alone, you have Blink Allies Encircling, Teleport Other, Virulence, Toxic Radiance, Ignite Poison, Haste Other, Portal Projectile, AF_ANTIMAGIC, shock serpents, and probably others that I haven't thought of off the top of my head. Later mechanics include things like monster Orb of Destruction, Hellfire [Burst], Dimensional Anchor, Deflect Missiles, Shadow Creatures, etc, etc, etc...

That said, it's not necessarily a good thing that so many mechanics only show up so late, and I personally have no objection to an early-game trampler being added. Design a good one!

[XuaXua]

shock serpents

Not sure what's special about those; Sky Beasts and Electric Eels introduce early electric attacks.

[dck]

  Code:

0.14 Snake monster. Has af_elec, hasted speed, and a ranged elec attack between shock and lightning bolt (think eels). When hit hard, zaps enemies (to it) near it proportionately.
When a shock serpent is hurt, taking 5 or more damage, calculate pow = rand_round(dam/9). If pow is greater than 0, the shock serpent's electric aura discharges: Enemies within min(3, pow) tiles are hit with 3d(4+pow*3/2) lightning damage (applying half of AC). (You will see 'violently' if pow is 4 or above).

[XuaXua]

I have never noticed that effect. I think by the time I'm in Snake, confronting Shock Serpents, the effect is negligible.

[Greyr]

I have never noticed that effect. I think by the time I'm in Snake, confronting Shock Serpents, the effect is negligible.

Yeah, Ive never noticed this either.
Whether or not you have rElec is the only thing that really matters.

[johlstei]

I have never noticed that effect. I think by the time I'm in Snake, confronting Shock Serpents, the effect is negligible.

It's definitely noticeable if you don't have rElec.

[tasonir]

I noticed the discharge, but I thought it only happened on their death, apparently if they have enough health to survive a big hit it can happen mid fight.

[Greyr]

If I might jump back on track(ish) here,

couple of questions:

1. Is the idea of showing more than one enemy per tile taboo in Crawl? IE A cluster of small red imps on a tile

2. I assume the monster that showcases trample early on should be natural and of average speed? Something like a buffalo or, just something really mundane that doesn't hit particularly hard.

I have zero technical know how to make this happen, but think the idea is intriguing enough to try.

[Roderic]

Something rather harmless but annoying, stubborn and with a tendency to push: a goat

[Greyr]

Something rather harmless but annoying, stubborn and with a tendency to push: a goat

How the hell did I forget about goats? Fantastic.

[nicolae]

In the vein of early versions of end-game mechanics:

I know in the past someone (I think crate?) suggested that it would be useful to have an earlier introduction to torment, but that this was problematic since most of the pre-extended game is full of natural monsters that would be susceptible to it.

Meanwhile, the "Demon Pit" portal vault that's been tossed around for a few versions has sort of stagnated because there's not really anything interesting to do with the low-tier demons.

Would it be reasonable, then, to combine the two? Add a level 3-tier demon that can cast Torment. (Or something similar but weaker, that only takes off 33% or 25% of health, to get players used to the mechanic of fractional HP loss. Call it... I dunno. Misery?) Put it in the Demon Pit. Interesting new portal vault, early introduction to Torment or Torment-like effects. Boom. Synergy.

[Greyr]

In the vein of early versions of end-game mechanics:

I know in the past someone (I think crate?) suggested that it would be useful to have an earlier introduction to torment, but that this was problematic since most of the pre-extended game is full of natural monsters that would be susceptible to it.

Meanwhile, the "Demon Pit" portal vault that's been tossed around for a few versions has sort of stagnated because there's not really anything interesting to do with the low-tier demons.

Would it be reasonable, then, to combine the two? Add a level 3-tier demon that can cast Torment. (Or something similar but weaker, that only takes off 33% or 25% of health, to get players used to the mechanic of fractional HP loss. Call it... I dunno. Misery?) Put it in the Demon Pit. Interesting new portal vault, early introduction to Torment or Torment-like effects. Boom. Synergy.

A tier-3 demon called a Fiendling? That would be neat. Maybe give it might other or haste other, something like that.

On a very super serious note of grave importance: Crawl needs goats.

... Maybe I should expand the thread title?

[nicolae]

A tier-3 demon called a Fiendling? That would be neat. Maybe give it might other or haste other, something like that.

It might not need those other things, really. One of the main ideas behind the Demon Pit portal vault was as a way to showcase the low-tier demons at a depth where someone might still conceivably get killed by a lemure. At that level, a demon with just Torment or Torment-lite might still pose a decent challenge.

On a very super serious note of grave importance: Crawl needs goats.

Yeah, a goat does seem like a good way to introduce the trample mechanic. It's flavorful but there's no reason a goat needs to be mega strong.

[XuaXua]

You could also give it jumping.

[Greyr]

A tier-3 demon called a Fiendling? That would be neat. Maybe give it might other or haste other, something like that.

It might not need those other things, really. One of the main ideas behind the Demon Pit portal vault was as a way to showcase the low-tier demons at a depth where someone might still conceivably get killed by a lemure. At that level, a demon with just Torment or Torment-lite might still pose a decent challenge.

On a very super serious note of grave importance: Crawl needs goats.

Yeah, a goat does seem like a good way to introduce the trample mechanic. It's flavorful but there's no reason a goat needs to be mega strong.

I'm not familiar with what the Demon Pit is supposed to be other than a portal vault with demons. If it ends up being what you say, then I am also of the opinion "misery" is enough.

Yeah, goats are goats. They trample, but are weak. That's my intention anyway.

But HELL goats, ohoho watch out.

[Greyr]

You could also give it jumping.

I'm saving that for rabbits. I'm also planning on making a spin-off called Crawlville where all enemies are farm animals.

In all seriousness though, would that be necessary? The idea here is to introduce a mechanic to a player not to confuse them further. I can imagine a goat jumping then immediately trampling and mass pandemonium where birds mate with frogs and crows fly backwards.

But again in literally the most seriousness possible, PleasingFungus noted that some mechanics aren't introduced until relatively late into the game. Which, really isn't great game design. Granted, its not a big deal, since most players read the wiki. But a series of weak enemies to introduce various game mechanics would make the late game less of a blind jump and more of a staircase, if you know what I mean.

[nicolae]

You could also give it jumping.

If goats would be added simply as a way to introduce new players to trampling, it might be better not to clutter up the learning experience with multiple new tactics.

[XuaXua]

Give goats jumping, make a ram to introduce trampling.

[Greyr]

Give goats jumping, make a ram to introduce trampling.

Unless I'm mistaken, jumping doesn't exist outside of player abilities.

Jumping spiders and some undead have blink close and if thats what you mean.

[tasonir]

If goats are going jumping, then I want boars to be the trampler. They really do charge, after all.

[Greyr]

Goat or boar, where do I go to petition an implementation?

[Greyr]

Its a right tramplin ram. Grrr.

[reaver]

Goat or boar, where do I go to petition an implementation?

Well you're sort of already there. You could go to ##crawl-dev too.

I'm also not opposed to an early trampler, but I'm not completely sure one is needed. Early game works excellently right now. I can't remember the last time a new monster was added to the early game.

How early would this monster appear? D:1? D:2? D:4? D:7?

What kind of hp/damage/MR would be balanced for this monster? (Requires defining where it will appear first)

If you're feeling really ambitious making a patch would increase your chances, although this is pretty simple to implement so this isn't as much of a problem.

At the very least nothing will happen until 0.15 goes out. We don't add features between a beta and release.

(Making a tile was really nice, may I put your tile in the unused tiles folder, so it has a chance to be used even if this particular monster doesn't get in?)

[Arrhythmia]

(Making a tile was really nice, may I put your tile in the unused tiles folder, so it has a chance to be used even if this particular monster doesn't get in?)

The tile, less whitespace, is just slightly larger than 32x32, so it'll need adjustments first.

[duvessa]

All trample does is occasionally stop you from using stairs. I don't think this is such a complicated mechanic that it needs to be on 51 monsters instead of 50. If anything I'm a bit disappointed that Crawl still considers elephants and death yaks to be different monsters.

[Greyr]

How early would this monster appear? D:1? D:2? D:4? D:7?

No earlier than D:4.

What kind of hp/damage/MR would be balanced for this monster?

--HP 8-20: so only slightly less robust than a sheep in this respect.

--EV is around 13 and AC is low, 4 or something around there. These are about what you might expect from an early dungeon animal.

--Attack 4-5: really the main draw here is trample. Since the defenses of the ram are already quite formidable for when you might first encounter one.

--MR 12: same as a sheep, same as a hound.

At the very least nothing will happen until 0.15 goes out. We don't add features between a beta and release.

Yeah, that makes sense.

(Making a tile was really nice, may I put your tile in the unused tiles folder, so it has a chance to be used even if this particular monster doesn't get in?)

Go for it!

edit: quote brackets

[TeshiAlair]

Let's get a 2 for 1, make a boring enemy more interesting: What if solo Yaks gained a "panicked" status, where their attacks would then have trample.

[magicpoints]

If anything I'm a bit disappointed that Crawl still considers elephants and death yaks to be different monsters.

Only if Dire Elephants can be called Death Elephants

[Greyr]

Let's get a 2 for 1, make a boring enemy more interesting: What if solo Yaks gained a "panicked" status, where their attacks would then have trample.

I like this, but

How much of an impact would this really have? It is just a dying yak after all.
Maybe some sort of pack mentality where one panics and they all start "stampeding"?

How would you denote this panic status?

[Leafsnail]

I think yaks are OK as they are, except for the standard issues with speed 10 melee-only monsters. Trivial gimmicks won't make them any better.

[TeshiAlair]

Let's get a 2 for 1, make a boring enemy more interesting: What if solo Yaks gained a "panicked" status, where their attacks would then have trample.

I like this, but

How much of an impact would this really have? It is just a dying yak after all.
Maybe some sort of pack mentality where one panics and they all start "stampeding"?

How would you denote this panic status?

1a. Full health yak, just a lone one, so could be a threat at the end of a full yak-pack fight.
1b. Doesn't have to have a large impact since it is just a mechanic introduction tool, ala Ball Pythons and constriction
2. I thought about stampede but that's a bit too strong/annoying given how common yaks are.
3. Same way as frenzied on sharks and orcs.

[TeshiAlair]

I think yaks are OK as they are, except for the standard issues with speed 10 melee-only monsters. Trivial gimmicks won't make them any better.

It will make them microscopically more interesting in terms of gameplay, and give them a "tutorial" aspect which is a helpful thing.

[Lasty]

The thing is that trample rarely does much to hurt you. In an open area, trample generally forces you back towards safe territory and prevents you from being surrounded. In a close-backed choke point it does nothing. The only two situations where it does something you don't want are when you're trying to escape upstairs and you get trampled off or when you're positioned in an open-backed chokepoint. In the latter case it makes you (at worst) walk around until you find a better chokepoint.

[Greyr]

The thing is that trample rarely does much to hurt you. In an open area, trample generally forces you back towards safe territory and prevents you from being surrounded. In a close-backed choke point it does nothing. The only two situations where it does something you don't want are when you're trying to escape upstairs and you get trampled off or when you're positioned in an open-backed chokepoint. In the latter case it makes you (at worst) walk around until you find a better chokepoint.

I'd much rather find this out when fighting a lone ram, than a pack of elephants.

Also, I imagine rams as being tough to kill for an appropriately depth character. Something that could be potentially devastating indirectly if not handled properly. Finding yourself next to something that consistently tramples, without any real means to dispose of it is kinda scary. At the VERY most It removes your most OP spell: walk away. At the very least you lucky to have a staircase with a wall. Somewhere in between you're forced to use a consumable.

Rams teach an important lesson to low level players that positioning is crucial, while simultaneously introducing the trample mechanic.

[crate]

Really trample should probably go away because like Lasty says it pretty much does nothing.

Crawl has too many different monster gimmicks as-is imo--especially since several of them effectively just serve to make crawl complicated for the sake of being complicated, which is pretty much directly in violation of crawl's design philosophy. This problem is then compounded by each of these gimmicks being rare, and often only on one monster. IMO Crawl would be much better served by figuring out which of these monster gimmicks is actually worth keeping and then giving them to multiple monsters each.

But given the direction of development recently I do not expect this to happen, since most of these gimmicks are actually recent additions to begin with.

[Wahaha]

I like trample because it sometimes prevents the use of stairs. Stairs are so strong that it's good to have monsters that make using them harder, in a reasonable way (Vault wardens are an unreasonable example). I don't think trample needs any kind of early introduction, really unnecessary.

[Galefury]

Really trample should probably go away because like Lasty says it pretty much does nothing.

Crawl has too many different monster gimmicks as-is imo--especially since several of them effectively just serve to make crawl complicated for the sake of being complicated, which is pretty much directly in violation of crawl's design philosophy. This problem is then compounded by each of these gimmicks being rare, and often only on one monster. IMO Crawl would be much better served by figuring out which of these monster gimmicks is actually worth keeping and then giving them to multiple monsters each.

But given the direction of development recently I do not expect this to happen, since most of these gimmicks are actually recent additions to begin with.

Quoted in full, because sometimes thanks are not enough. I couldn't agree more with this.

[Greyr]

I'm still of the opinion an early game trampler might be interesting. Making it faster than average would be even more interesting.

But after reading the posts I'll admit maybe it's not the best implementation.

I would like to see it happen, if only for a brief ill conceived version of glorious gimmickry.

[Sandman25]

I like trample and would not want it gone. Am I the only player who has problems with Elephant packs as melee character? Trampling removes stair-dancing option, I am moved out of stairs more often than not. It is not always possible to retreat upstairs even if you started fighting several tiles away from them.

[Greyr]

I like trample and would not want it gone. Am I the only player who has problems with Elephant packs as melee character? Trampling removes stair-dancing option, I am moved out of stairs more often than not. It is not always possible to retreat upstairs even if you started fighting several tiles away from them.

Nope, you're not the only one.

The unanimous consent seems to be that trample doesn't do jack shit, when my personal experience leads me to believe otherwise.

[nilsbloodaxe]

The unanimous consent seems to be that trample doesn't do jack shit, when my personal experience leads me to believe otherwise.

It isn't that it doesn't do jack shit, it is that if you position yourself properly it basically does jack shit.

[Greyr]

The unanimous consent seems to be that trample doesn't do jack shit, when my personal experience leads me to believe otherwise.

It isn't that it doesn't do jack shit, it is that if you position yourself properly it basically does jack shit.

Yeah, and that's okay. Proper positioning can make a lot of things jack shit.

[crate]

the thing is trample doesn't really remove using stairs, either, if you're smart about it ... there are lots of ways to still separate elephant packs, they just take more time (and what this encourages is mostly you clear out lots of monsters and then later deal with the elephants)

by the way you might note that crawl has a second mechanic that also, in practice, does very little but sometimes remove the ability to use stairs, which is constriction (and in fact they remove the ability to use stairs in exactly the same way: if you get hit by the melee attack that has the effect while attempting to climb stairs)

If using stairs in-combat is a problem (I think stairs are a huge problem but I don't personally see a way to fix the things that are problematic about them without turning crawl into a different game altogether, and it's not even the in-combat uses that are the worst) then I would suggest actually fixing the problem

[dpeg]

Ideally, this should be split into a new thread [Early portal vault: demon pit], but that's beyond my thread-managing powers.

I know in the past someone suggested that it would be useful to have an earlier introduction to torment, but that this was problematic since most of the pre-extended game is full of natural monsters that would be susceptible to it.

Meanwhile, the "Demon Pit" portal vault that's been tossed around for a few versions has sort of stagnated because there's not really anything interesting to do with the low-tier demons.

Would it be reasonable, then, to combine the two? Add a level 3-tier demon that can cast Torment. [...] Put it in the Demon Pit.

I like that idea a lot!

Players know very well how common imps work, and newbies can figure out that imps may be dealt with through parking them a level upstairs. That's not an option in the portal vault, which is another plus. I believe that a smallish map can already work: circle-like layout, so that you can run away from the tormenting demonlet; not quite narrow (i.e. not width one corridors), so that on the one hand imps have a harder time to block you, but on the other hand you could be exposed to more than two imps; plus sensible placement of doors (not necessarily of width one either) and perhaps glass (so that you sometimes can see where the tormenting demon is) can do the trick.

One would hope that any of these would noticeably help to get the Pit loot: might and some weapon power (an axe might work well here); invisibility; access to frost damage.

[XuaXua]

DEMON PIT

I used to love that one early vault with demons behind some lava; you'd have to throw rocks to take them down or I think reaching weapons worked (were reaching weapons around then?) I think it got removed, but it was some nice early XP and I felt it was an introduction to the fact that demons beyond red imps existed. I guess the currently extremely frequent appearance of shadow imps can compensate.

[TeshiAlair]

FWIW, I find constriction to be far less relevant or interesting than trample.

[Lasty]

I'm confused by a couple of things that have been said:

It is not always possible to retreat upstairs even if you started fighting several tiles away from elephants.

Elephants are the same speed as you, and they can only trample you off stairs if you are standing next to them when you go upstairs, if you're several tiles away from elephants it's always possible to retreat upstairs. Given that, I'm not sure what you mean -- could you clarify?

At the VERY most It removes your most OP spell: walk away. At the very least you lucky to have a staircase with a wall. Somewhere in between you're forced to use a consumable.

Trample does literally nothing to prevent you from walking away. It doesn't even prevent you from using stairs except in situations where the elephant would follow you upstairs even if it didn't have trample, thereby preventing you from escaping to the same degree. Elephants are the same speed as you, so you can escape them without a consumable in the same ways you escape any other speed 10 monster. If I'm missing the point, could you explain?

[Roderic]

FWIW, I find constriction to be far less relevant or interesting than trample.

Because is rather harmless? Early constriction from ball pythons is anecdotic at best, but I understand is just for learning. Later on, constriction monsters like nagas, octopodes or anacondas (am I forgetting anything else?) aren't a threat by constriction itself, either they have few chances to appear, mostly if Snake Pit doesn't or the player can deal with them before getting close or even escape from the constriction without many difficulties.

In comparison, the lethal hug of an owlbear in Nethack is something to be careful of and aware.

Returning to the main point. Trampling in open space when surrounded makes difficult your runaway or positioning towards a chokepoint, as it happens in Lair. Trampling in corridors or narrow spaces makes difficult to be able to overpass the monster which is not only blocking your way but pushing you back to the location you came from, and possibly fleeing from, so it's an interesting situation.

I cannot figure out what happens if a trampling creature appears close to lava or deep water areas, is there a chance to be pushed to instadeath? If so, I think vaults could be cleverly designed to convert a mild nuisance in a challenging threat.

[Galefury]

Well, constriction used to be the fucking touch of death. People really weren't too happy with that either.