Demigods with God Traits


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Halls Hopper

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Post Saturday, 9th April 2011, 06:36

Demigods with God Traits

Well, uh, if Demigods are bred from deities or spirits, why can't we choose to gain god attributes over levels?

Let's bind Demigods to a single entity and give them bonuses. I'm against mutations because I want to keep the naturally boosted statistics, unless you want to give Demigods 1.8:1 exp =_____=

To give an example, a Demigod of Yredemnul might have either "You radiate an aura of mastery." which has a chance to charm enemy undead passively with three levels. Alternatively, "Your resemblance to the God of the Dead gives the Ancient Lich pause." Automatic undead paralysis chance based on HD. A much easier to implement thing would be accelerated Piety. Starting at +1 Piety with appropriate equipment or minions might be nice.

What do you think?

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Post Saturday, 9th April 2011, 08:02

Re: Demigods with God Traits

Halls Hopper

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Post Saturday, 9th April 2011, 08:33

Re: Demigods with God Traits

MarvinPA wrote:But the whole point of Demigods is that they're godless.

See also:
https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... es:demigod
https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3046



Thanks for replying. Marvin,

I've read the lore. I just don't feel sure that a creature descended from gods doesn't have any of their traits. A Demigod has the description, paraphrased "A creature with godlike ancestry.". So what is the relationship between the god and its bloodline? None? Are all demigods descended from non-godlike extraplanar entities that you can't worship? Demigod worshipping sounds interesting, but I understood that gods expend power to keep their worshippers satisfied in reality. What does the Demigod do for its following?

Clearly during the period of the construction of the Orb gauntlet these gods had a strong enough following that people built altars to them and there has been enough time for world-warping gods like Lugonu/Lucy to create portals to the Abyss or spend time corrupting altars, et cetera. When a challenger is not in the gauntlet, time has to slow or stop, otherwise processes like the corruption of altars by Lugonu would have corrupted ALL altars in the dungeon (see documents on Lugonu's effects in the radius of corrupt altars); although the concept of the challenger affecting the dungeon or the dungeon being different for every challenger makes sense, certain other time-dependent effects that occur whilst progressing to the Zot realm make this the most obvious idea. Without publicity, the only way that a Demigod could affect established followers is by contact in the dungeon or by being a celebrated deity before he/she enters- therefore Demigods must be prime material avatars of unknown gods or extraplanar entities to make the leap between a god potent enough to attract believers from established beings and the pitiful Level 1 that enters the dungeon.

Although it is possible that the gauntlet warps the memories and powers of those who enter, this leaves us with the obvious consideration of the back stories already given for classes such as Wanderer. If the dungeon equalizes all that enter to an extent, then assuming that the back stories for each class are true, the Demigod back story must be false, or the Demigod must have been powerful before they entered, powerful enough that the dungeon could not reduce their ability so far.

Therefore we establish the Demigod as an endowed avatar of a force stronger than itself that recovers from the effect of the gauntlet's entry, without memory yet still powerful. The dungeon must dampen the effects of gods and other external entities (hence the unpredictability of gifts and blessings; I imagine the gods are blind as to what they send partly, with the exception of Xom or Lugonu, whose powers are almost invariably accurate for some reason- their relation to the Abyss may be a part!)...

...so this leaves it beautifully clear for whatever we like. I didn't really care for the idea of accelerated Piety, I just thought it would be very easy to put in. My idea was more that a Demigod would have the properties of a god they came from. Demigods derived from themselves are a stretch for the above reason, but a Demigod based on a more powerful version of themselves is certainly a very wonderful thing.
Last edited by The Mantis on Saturday, 9th April 2011, 08:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Saturday, 9th April 2011, 08:55

Re: Demigods with God Traits

Try thinking about it classically. Heracles was the son of Zeus, but he only got super human strength, not the ability to chuck scaled down lightning bolts. Heck, Greek mythology is full of descendants of Gods, and a great many of them didn't get any special divine abilities (well, aside from being heros, being plot centric, and occasionally finding magic items). If you just consider demigods to be just your average, larger than life, classical hero it makes sense. Only thing that's different is the pantheon.

Another way to think about it is that a god is just a super strong entity- and this is what they pass on to their descendants. Their flavor is more part of their personality- it's how they chose to act, how they chose to manifest their power, what mantel they chose to wear, or reflective or their origin or past experiences (ie, TSO chooses to be the way He is the same way a Paladin chooses to follow the code, Kiku was drawn to necromancy for the same reason any necromancer is, Ash's powers are shaped by how He was wronged, etc). This does lead to some chicken and egg questions about some of the gods (did Lucy grow out of the abyss, or did She choose it as Her realm, or heck, create it Herself?), but you're not supposed to know everything about the divine.

For this message the author mageykun has received thanks:
The Mantis

Halls Hopper

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Post Saturday, 9th April 2011, 09:01

Re: Demigods with God Traits

That's interesting. I don't think we're not supposed to know everything, particularly if they are especially powerful entities. Eventually I would like to learn something about the origin of each god if I delve deeply into it. They're not omniscient and they do war amongst themselves. There's definitely a point there. I am not familiar with Greek mythology. I do see your interpolation as being very valid. Though. The mythology I am used to makes it familiar that legendary heroes would have blessings by the gods. I played a game called Shiren the Wanderer which was similar to this but harder. It also had these blessings, but in different forms. I am trying to give it more form.

Concepts of the Demigod... it fascinates, vastly...?

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Post Saturday, 9th April 2011, 09:45

Re: Demigods with God Traits

Ludeo-mythology is sure interesting, but it's a game, after all.

Demigods will not get god or god-related powers, and the reasons have been explained on the wiki page.
The concept behind my proposal of abstract worshipers is also explained there; it is about gods existing only because humans believe in them. (The demigod in the dungeon does not have any divine power, yet mortals will rever him and build altars.) You may or may not like this background, but I believe it's good enough.

Halls Hopper

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Post Saturday, 9th April 2011, 10:19

Re: Demigods with God Traits

Yeah, I was reading about that, by a coincidence. It seems mighty silly of me now. That's what I was working out above, see. If a Demigod is an avatar, it can get whatever powers it likes. So far, in terms of the abstract proposal, we've got piety ranking, which seems to be done via direct conflict with gods. I liked the idea of praying at the altars of Gods to draw their attention, and also the idea of being damaged or wrathed by approaching an altar. If we make the Demigod an Avatar, we can abstract out everything because it can be an avatar of a fish god if it likes. I like the idea of an extremely slow experience curve with difficult battles being rewarded with higher stats. Praying at an altar lets you convert it, damages you, and the speed of conversion depends on your self Piety. You can summon converts that you've made, like Eli's pacify ability, and get stat bonuses or something by coming into conflict with gods or their servants. I imagine self piety would be gained by fighting Daevas or Priests as well. It makes Demigods really versatile if they can compensate for the lack of invokable abilities and low level by natural servitors and high stats, which is absolutely what they need if they're going to compensate for being unable to choose gods. As a very early/late game class, where all characters are likely to have access to as many or more abilities than them, weaker during the only equal period that is likely (some things like MDFi are exceptions due to the fact they'll maintain one God and amass Piety easily) and invariably lower Level, they need to be versatile.

Daddei didn't raise no chicken, hehe. I liked that. It sounds amazing to have a character in a constant war with the gods. Permanent seventeen god wrath.
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Post Monday, 25th April 2011, 23:03

Re: Demigods with God Traits

I've always seen demigods as a race for players who don't want to bother with a god. It somewhat sucks that they level so slowly and are generally weaker than humans. I'd think that, being godlike, they'd have +2 across the board and not -1. I love demigods but all the scumming you have to do while playing them just to "keep up" with other species is somewhat disheartening.

Spider Stomper

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Post Tuesday, 26th April 2011, 00:04

Re: Demigods with God Traits

mageykun wrote:Try thinking about it classically. Heracles was the son of Zeus, but he only got super human strength, not the ability to chuck scaled down lightning bolts. Heck, Greek mythology is full of descendants of Gods, and a great many of them didn't get any special divine abilities (well, aside from being heros, being plot centric, and occasionally finding magic items). If you just consider demigods to be just your average, larger than life, classical hero it makes sense. Only thing that's different is the pantheon.


It's interesting that you would mention Greco-Roman mythology, because the demigods there got MUCH more divine assistance than anybody else. They were the gods' children, after all! Many of the magic items that these guys got were gifts from Mommy or Daddy.

While your argument against the OP still stands, the appeal to classical mythology highlights just why demigods don't work for me at all in terms of flavor. I don't see how I personally would change that without ruining balance; the whole point of demigods in classical mythology was that they were "overpowered" compared to mortals.

I could see what we have for demigods as being some sort of machine-man or golem being (like the Warforged of 4e DnD or something): its non-organic brain is somewhat slow to gain new skills and cannot process the existence of a higher being, but its construction of its body and mind surpasses both mortal and undead in power and precision.

Spider Stomper

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Post Tuesday, 26th April 2011, 10:33

Re: Demigods with God Traits

dpeg wrote:it is about gods existing only because humans believe in them.


I don't like how this kind of wacky Pratchett-idea has sneaked into crawl. It made for a good joke, but the Crawl gods aren't really very much like the Discworld gods, and I'm not sure it makes for good gameplay.
Crazy Yiuf mutters: "Good: bonuses. Bad: Boni. Ugly: Bonii!"

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Post Tuesday, 26th April 2011, 11:54

Re: Demigods with God Traits

vintermann wrote:
dpeg wrote:it is about gods existing only because humans believe in them.


I don't like how this kind of wacky Pratchett-idea has sneaked into crawl. It made for a good joke, but the Crawl gods aren't really very much like the Discworld gods, and I'm not sure it makes for good gameplay.

I am not sure if I should take this as an insult, but I did not read Pratchett. The idea is completely natural, at least for a die-hard atheist (like me, and, I'd reckon to guess, Pratchett).
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Post Tuesday, 26th April 2011, 12:44

Re: Demigods with God Traits

I've played both. Humans are always higher level than demigods because they level faster. The HP and attributes make up for this somewhat and the difference between the two is very slight though... I still think humans are stronger in the end because of higher skills. I used to play only humans and demigods at first because I thought elves and such were rather silly and didn't care for the whole high fantasy thing.

This was back when I was very new to the game though... I never made it past mid game with them. The late game might be different I guess.

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Post Tuesday, 26th April 2011, 15:37

Re: Demigods with God Traits

I can see the argument that being a demigod and being cut off from all godly assistance makes no sense, but that's easily remedied.

Demigod -> Forsaken: Long ago, a mortal clan attempted to achieve godhood. They partially succeeded, but the gods banded together and cursed their bloodline for doing so.

mageykun wrote:Try thinking about it classically. Heracles was the son of Zeus, but he only got super human strength, not the ability to chuck scaled down lightning bolts. Heck, Greek mythology is full of descendants of Gods, and a great many of them didn't get any special divine abilities (well, aside from being heros, being plot centric, and occasionally finding magic items).


Fun fact: the word 'hero' didn't originally mean, "Person who performs great deeds"; it meant, "Child of a god and a mortal".

vintermann wrote:
dpeg wrote:it is about gods existing only because humans believe in them.


I don't like how this kind of wacky Pratchett-idea has sneaked into crawl. It made for a good joke, but the Crawl gods aren't really very much like the Discworld gods, and I'm not sure it makes for good gameplay.


I'm not sure Pratchett can claim this idea. See: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodsNeedPrayerBadly (Click at your own risk).

Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 26th April 2011, 22:18

Re: Demigods with God Traits

minmay wrote:
snow wrote:I've always seen demigods as a race for players who don't want to bother with a god. It somewhat sucks that they level so slowly and are generally weaker than humans. I'd think that, being godlike, they'd have +2 across the board and not -1. I love demigods but all the scumming you have to do while playing them just to "keep up" with other species is somewhat disheartening.

It is obvious from reading this post that either you have not played humans or you have not played demigods.


Demigods are pretty bad - atheist High Elves are similar but seem better for about 80% of builds. For example, a DGCr starts with 15 Str, 16 Int, 15 Dex, 15hp 2 mp, and gets an average of 4.3 points added to Str, Dex, and Int at lvl 27 A HECr starts with 11 Str, 15 Int, 14 Dex, 12 hp 1mp and gets an average of 4.5 points added to Dex and Int by level 27. DG have a hp edge, but the difference in Fighting aptitude wipes most of it out by the midgame. So, the only real edge DG have is in Str (8 points) which would only really impact this build in terms of carrying capacity. HE have an aptitude difference of 2 to 4 in just about every skill you would like to train. I recently won a HeGl, going atheist, and the game felt more like playing a Demigod than any DG game I've ever tried. DG actually took a big nerf when the game switched to coarse aptitudes - all their apts went from 110 to 119, which is a big deal when it effects EVERY skill.

Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 26th April 2011, 22:35

Re: Demigods with God Traits

Going off that - I think a possible fix for demigods would be to give them +1 in all non-spellcasting skills, and 0 in all casting skills (idea being that DG are naturally good at everything from their divine heritage, but don't have any specific inclination towards casting or any type of magic). Then, when the abstract worshippers patch is written, the 'other god' worshipper bands need to be an actual danger instead of just loot and flavor. Then, demigods would look like this in terms of advantages/disadvantages:

Adv:
1) You have adaptable physical and mental skills, and are good at most everything
2) Best stats in the game, best combination of HP and MP growth
3) You have an additional source of loot and XP ('other god' bands)

Dis:
1) You have the worst leveling aptitude in the game
2) You can't worship a god
3) Worshippers of other gods pose an active danger throughout the game

Seems a little more balanced (and probably feels more 'divine') than the current implementation. Right now, for most builds, the stats don't even come close to balancing out the lack of a god, let alone the -1 in all skills.

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