remove 'jackals spawned outside the D:1 entrance vault'

[Patashu]

With a hack piece of code that will delete (or replace) jackal packs within, say, 20 tiles if where you first spawn at the start of the game.

Are there any major downsides to this?

[crate]

well there's the downside that you don't encounter jackals there

if jackals on d:1 are undesirable I suggest just removing jackals from d:1 (I don't personally think this is the case)
jackal packs are actually one of the more skill-intensive monster encounters you are likely to see on d:1, though I recognize that this may not be apparent at first glance

all monsters in los are already removed when the game begins, btw

[nicolae]

all monsters in los are already removed when the game begins, btw

Currently they aren't removed if they're behind glass, though I think all the D:1 arrival vaults that place monsters behind glass use them as decoration instead of something you might have to fight later.

[PleasingFungus]

Currently they aren't removed if they're behind glass, though I think all the D:1 arrival vaults that place monsters behind glass use them as decoration instead of something you might have to fight later.

Plus one or two entry vaults that have a big pile of enemies behind glass & a rune door.

[Hurkyl]

Currently they aren't removed if they're behind glass, though I think all the D:1 arrival vaults that place monsters behind glass use them as decoration instead of something you might have to fight later.

Plus one or two entry vaults that have a big pile of enemies behind glass & a rune door.

Some of those are kind of annoying actually. I had to rest a few times in that one where there's a pan lord and a bunch of imps behind glass, and it took a while for all the taunts to go by each time I 5'd. (although admittedly it was cute upon first glance)

[PleasingFungus]

Some of those are kind of annoying actually. I had to rest a few times in that one where there's a pan lord and a bunch of imps behind glass, and it took a while for all the taunts to go by each time I 5'd. (although admittedly it was cute upon first glance)

IIRC, that one was removed a few months ago. A tragedy.

[damiac]

It's really fun when you're just starting out as a FE or something, walk out the entrance vault door, walk down a hallway, and see 3 jackals. Better hope you get good rolls on flame tongue!

Of course, the same thing can happen with a FI or GL and an early adder. You'd better hit tab extra hard, you need to kill that snake fast!

I'd rather there were no monsters with more than speed 10 in D1, since unlike the rest of the non-extended game, there's no upstairs to save you on D1. And it really seems to turn people off to crawl when their first few games end on D1 to a situation they couldn't be expected to be able to deal with.

[Lasty]

It's fairly rare that you walk into sight of three jackals that all notice you immediately on D:1, though of course it can happen.

[Kismet]

I'd rather there were no monsters with more than speed 10 in D1, since unlike the rest of the non-extended game, there's no upstairs to save you on D1. And it really seems to turn people off to crawl when their first few games end on D1 to a situation they couldn't be expected to be able to deal with.

The lol you're dead quality of those games made Crawl seem awesome. "This game REALLY doesn't give a fuck", just like the coolest kids in high school!

[damiac]

But 'lol you're dead' is against the design philosophy of crawl, and most of the game is good about not doing it to you. D1 just has you in a terrible position sometimes. 0mp, with 0 skill UC as your only defense, against something that's faster than you just kinda sucks.

That why I suggested just removing fast monsters from D1. After that point, there's always an escape option.

[Wahaha]

I thought about making the dungeon entrance its own little floor above D:1 with 3 stairs going down. No monsters, just an entrance vault and 3 stairs inside the vault. I don't know if this is a good thing, just a thought possibly worth mentioning in this thread.

[Gene_]

I thought about making the dungeon entrance its own little floor above D:1 with 3 stairs going down. No monsters, just an entrance vault and 3 stairs inside the vault. I don't know if this is a good thing, just a thought possibly worth mentioning in this thread.

It also allows for a lot more creativity with the entrance vaults, so I'm personally in favor, but it would break up the "27 floors" thing. Perhaps a portal exit scheme, so that we can still technically have 27 floors but with an isolated entry vault portal area? We could just put the normal exit point above an automatically empty portal archway that you come out of.

That obviously doesn't solve the (arguable) issue with jackals murdering you immediately, but I thought it was a nice idea independent of the basic thread topic.

[PleasingFungus]

It also allows for a lot more creativity with the entrance vaults, so I'm personally in favor, but it would break up the "27 floors" thing. Perhaps a portal exit scheme, so that we can still technically have 27 floors but with an isolated entry vault portal area? We could just put the normal exit point above an automatically empty portal archway that you come out of.

That obviously doesn't solve the (arguable) issue with jackals murdering you immediately, but I thought it was a nice idea independent of the basic thread topic.

27 floors?

[Gene_]

It also allows for a lot more creativity with the entrance vaults, so I'm personally in favor, but it would break up the "27 floors" thing. Perhaps a portal exit scheme, so that we can still technically have 27 floors but with an isolated entry vault portal area? We could just put the normal exit point above an automatically empty portal archway that you come out of.

That obviously doesn't solve the (arguable) issue with jackals murdering you immediately, but I thought it was a nice idea independent of the basic thread topic.

27 floors?

Wait, we got rid of that already, damn. I was thinking "d 1-15, depths 1-5, zot 1-5" and somehow came up with a total of 27, and not 25.

[Wahaha]

That obviously doesn't solve the (arguable) issue with jackals murdering you immediately

If it is an issue then it does solve it because there's a good chance you can go back up the stairs. The (possible) issue isn't "jackals on D:1", it's "jackals as the first enemies you see with nowhere to run". Edit: unless you were still talking about making it a portal that goes into an empty archway, then yes there's no point because you can't go back, but you must be able to go back to be able to exit the dungeon.

[duvessa]

Yeah I'm sorry but if you're fighting a whole jackal pack at once on d:1 you almost certainly made some kind of mistake. Even with autoexplore it's extremely rare for 3 jackals to come into view at once on D:1, and with sane manual exploration it's basically nonexistent. And then the three jacklals have to all notice you at once on top of that, and then they have to actually beat you to a door or the stairs or whatever, and then you actually have to die to them. That's very rare and I'm pretty sure kobolds and even hobgoblins are more likely to be the cause of unavoidable deaths.
Also my favourite D:1 monsters are the fast ones (jackal, giant gecko, etc) because you don't have to do tedious exploitation of randomized energy to fight them effectively. Speaking of giant geckos those are a ton more dangerous than jackal packs, honest.

[Gene_]

That obviously doesn't solve the (arguable) issue with jackals murdering you immediately

If it is an issue then it does solve it because there's a good chance you can go back up the stairs. The (possible) issue isn't "jackals on D:1", it's "jackals as the first enemies you see with nowhere to run". Edit: unless you were still talking about making it a portal that goes into an empty archway, then yes there's no point because you can't go back, but you must be able to go back to be able to exit the dungeon.

Yeah, I was talking about making a temporary entryway portal area, and immediately placing the exit portal 1 space above the archway you'd leave. Which is completely meaningless because I apparently cannot perform simple addition.