Why do Lugonu, Jiyva and Beogh have "surprise" altars?

[XuaXua]

Experienced players know that Beogh, Lugonu and Jiyva exist. Heck, you can start a game under Beogh.

Many players do not necessarily know that they exist; not because they can find the altars, but because they have read spoilers or are trying to identify the "best" deity to follow for their course of action.

So, ultimately (and somewhat understandably because it is unlikely for a Lugonu altar to be readily accessible or re-locatable), why aren't they listed grayed-out on the ctrl-o screen by default?

Note that I am not asking for these altars to be included in Temple or required to be presented by whatever limit altars are required to show up by.

[PleasingFungus]

Experienced players know that Beogh, Lugonu and Jiyva exist. Heck, you can start a game under Beogh.

Not since 0.13 came out, no.

Many players do not necessarily because they can find the altars, but because they have read spoilers or are trying to identify the "best" deity to follow for their course of action.

This sentence is missing a verb, and I have no idea what it was intended to mean.

So, ultimately (and somewhat understandably because it is unlikely for a Lugonu altar to be readily accessible or re-locatable), why aren't they listed grayed-out on the ctrl-o screen by default?

Because they are very rarely if ever available in the early game, so it would be misleading to list them on ctrl-o. (All of the temple gods, in contrast, are guaranteed to generate pre-lair.)

[XuaXua]

Not since 0.13 came out, no.

My mistake; I haven't played Beogh for a long while due to lack of ally management and a desire to experiment with other combos (not counting a recent online Beogh attempt that didn't go very far). One can still start as an Abyssal Knight, so foreknowledge of Lugonu exists.

This sentence is missing a verb

It has been repaired.

Because they are very rarely if ever available in the early game, so it would be misleading to list them on ctrl-o. (All of the temple gods, in contrast, are guaranteed to generate pre-lair.)

Without having fore-knowledge of that discovered-by-lair requirement, I don't see how listing them would be misleading.

Is the by-lair requirement sort of an arbitrary rule; possibly an artifact of the pre-restructuring of D/U ? If I were inclined to derail the thread, I might follow with a question along the lines of, "Would there be any notable consequences by altering that range so temple gods are guaranteed by the bottom of D?"

[johlstei]

You may has well have said "heck, you can start a game under lugonu" because you can start a game under lugonu.

[and into]

Small tangent: Although I like the current theme/flavor, I wouldn't mind Jiyva being put under normal rotation, personally. But I don't think that's a big deal either way.

I agree with PF that having greyed out names for these gods under the CTRL+o menu would be more confusing than the status quo, even if the status quo isn't quite ideal (as there may be specific cases in which not having those names might also cause some confusion). It seems hard to present this information in a completely transparent and sensible way.

I wouldn't consider withholding knowledge of these three gods all that problematic, though. New players will discover these gods in the normal course of playing without doing weird or counter-intuitive things (just by exploring and playing more), and the lack of information about these three gods doesn't cause people to unwittingly play more poorly, because holding out for (say) a Jiyva altar that you aren't guaranteed to get before quite far in the game, is strictly lowering your chances to win.

[PleasingFungus]

It has been repaired.

Many players do not necessarily know that they exist; not because they can find the altars, but because they have read spoilers or are trying to identify the "best" deity to follow for their course of action.

To be quite honest, I still don't understand this sentence. Players don't know that the non-temple gods exist, because they've read spoilers...?

Is the by-lair requirement sort of an arbitrary rule; possibly an artifact of the pre-restructuring of D/U ? If I were inclined to derail the thread, I might follow with a question along the lines of, "Would there be any notable consequences by altering that range so temple gods are guaranteed by the bottom of D?"

They're guaranteed to be generated between D:2 and D:9, specifically. This has been the case since overflow altars were added, in 2009; before then, I believe all temple gods were guaranteed in the Temple, which of course generates between D:4-7.

Small tangent: Although I like the current theme/flavor, I wouldn't mind Jiyva being put under normal rotation, personally. But I don't think that's a big deal either way.

Jiyva isn't really designed to work well as an early-game god. There was a good conversation about this a while back, that ended up with his already-rare altars getting shifted later into the dungeon.

[Lasty]

Jiyva is the only god that gives you a free rune. That alone makes it seem weird to make it easily accessible every game.

[XuaXua]

Jiyva is the only god that gives you a free rune. That alone makes it seem weird to make it easily accessible every game.

At no point was it suggested to make the Jiyva altar easily accessible, merely to ask why it isn't listed on the ctrl-o screen, grayed out until found.

[njvack]

IMO, it's because surprises are kinda neat sometimes.

[damiac]

The Jivya surprise is kinda spoilery, in that if you kill TRJ, you lose access to a god who can cure your mutations, with no way of knowing that. As an evil race, Jivya is your only god option for curing mutations, so I could see an unspoiled player with some bad muts first clearing slime looking for some cure mut potions, then upon not finding them, decide to convert to jivya. Only, no more jivya! (I totally did this myself, I didn't know killing TRJ killed jivya as well)

[and into]

Quick point: It is Jiyva, not Jivya (y before v).

Jiyva is the only god that gives you a free rune. That alone makes it seem weird to make it easily accessible every game.

At no point was it suggested to make the Jiyva altar easily accessible, merely to ask why it isn't listed on the ctrl-o screen, grayed out until found.

I suggested it, admitting that it was tangential (but not entirely unrelated) to the OP.

Jiyva is the only god that gives you a free rune. That alone makes it seem weird to make it easily accessible every game.

Lugonu essentially gives you a rune only slightly later than many Jiyva-ites pick up theirs, and makes it much easier to get many other runes thanks to corruption. And Lucy is a starting god. I wouldn't see that as a strong consideration, myself. But as I said, I don't think it is a big deal either way. I'm satisfied by PF's point that Jiyva is mostly intended as a "mid-game" god that you switch to.

[nilsbloodaxe]

The only thing I don't like about Jiyva is the fact that killing TRJ makes it impossible to switch to Jiyva

[Sar]

I think it's cool. Like, maybe there should be a warning about it, but it's just a cool little thing that adds ~flavour~

[XuaXua]

The only thing I don't like about Jiyva is the fact that killing TRJ makes it impossible to switch to Jiyva

I thought if Dissolution was still alive, you could still switch. There was a thread about this a long time ago.

[duvessa]

that has never been true ever

[Siegurt]

Note that Jiyva shows up under ?/G whether he's alive or dead, discovered or not.

I would personally argue for more gods that don't always show up in every game, a reliable stock patheon and a number of rotating guest god spots might make for some interesting choices when you "pre-select" your god of preference, and he's just not generated in this game.

[Wahaha]

I would personally argue for more gods that don't always show up in every game, a reliable stock patheon and a number of rotating guest god spots might make for some interesting choices when you "pre-select" your god of preference, and he's just not generated in this game.

I thanked the post but then noticed you're saying something about a "reliable stock pantheon"? I would like it if each game a few randomly selected gods didn't have a guaranteed altar on D:1-D:9. If what you're saying is having a smaller set of gods that always appear in every game, and the other gods are randomly rotating then I completely disagree because people would just "aim" to pick one of the gods that is guaranteed.

[and into]

Yes, I agree it would be pretty cool (especially as the number of gods seems to be increasing overall) if, say, 2/3 of the "standard" gods or so were guaranteed before D:9, and the rest didn't generate. You could always choose some gods via background, and incidentally it would make sense for Jiyva (in Slime), Beogh (via orc priests), and Lugonu (in abyss) to generate in every game.

[Leafsnail]

What would that achieve other than preventing you from playing the character you wanted to play 33% of the time?

[all before]

What would that achieve other than preventing you from playing the character you wanted to play 33% of the time?

Forcing you to reconsider your playstyle based on the RNG, like most of the rest of the game. Consequently, it'd also achieve increased variety and number of interesting decisions.

Dumb side question: how do I include someone's name when I quote them?

[all before]

Tangential Post: I'm down with mid-game altars, but why the racial restriction on Beogh? Let the orcs open up a little and accept other sentient beings as their blood-stained messiah!

[Leafsnail]

I think gods are incredibly poorly suited to that kind of randomization, though. They are, in most cases, a one-time choice that affects your tactics and strategy throughout the entire game dramatically. Thus when you pick a god you aren't really making a decision about which will make you most likely to win in the vast majority of cases (if you were then there you would probably just pick Fedhas or Trog or something), you're choosing an element of your playstyle. And being arbitrarily locked out of that 33% of the time would cause nothing but irritation. Yes, I could play Makhleb again instead of trying out Dith, I guess. It wouldn't hurt my character's ability to win at all. But it would annoy me by not letting me get at the content I actually wanted to play.

[all before]

Leafsnail, that makes sense. But wouldn't having not all the gods available in each game encourage you to take gods other than Fedhas/Makhleb/Trog? One of the tenets of game design is that playing optimally shouldn't be boring, right? If all gods spawned only in Temple, then an optimal player would just take one of the clearly-optimal gods every time. Spreading the altars out over d:2-7 is supposed to encourage people to consider taking non-clearly-optimal gods. But it seems like a lot of people still just decide in advance the god they want or think is strongest for their character. If there was no guarantee that any given god would spawn, then it would psuch people to consider taking different gods each game.

[PleasingFungus]

Dumb side question: how do I include someone's name when I quote them?

Either add an '="name"' to the opening quote tag, or, more simply, hit the 'quote' button in the bottom-right of every post.

[Siegurt]

Dumb side question: how do I include someone's name when I quote them?

1. press the 'quote' button on a post and it will insert the code (and the quotation of their) for you.
2. Start a reply, scroll down to the post you want to quote from, select the text you want to quote, press the quote button on that post, and your selection will be appended as quote
3. type it in [ quote ="some dude" ]some dude said some thing[ /quote ]

Edit: Doh! PF snaked one in there on me!

[XuaXua]

that has never been true ever

There certainly was a thread discussing this... I just never paid attention to the conclusion. Hold on...

There you go: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6886&p=92202&hilit=dissolution#p92202

[XuaXua]

Note that Jiyva shows up under ?/G whether he's alive or dead, discovered or not.

As do all the gods, though that page isn't as directly accessible (1 more keystroke, I guess) as the dungeon overview.

I would personally argue for more gods that don't always show up in every game, a reliable stock patheon and a number of rotating guest god spots might make for some interesting choices when you "pre-select" your god of preference, and he's just not generated in this game.

I think unreliability of gods on a per-game basis would make for more interesting choices on early altar discovery.

[Leafsnail]

Leafsnail, that makes sense. But wouldn't having not all the gods available in each game encourage you to take gods other than Fedhas/Makhleb/Trog? One of the tenets of game design is that playing optimally shouldn't be boring, right? If all gods spawned only in Temple, then an optimal player would just take one of the clearly-optimal gods every time. Spreading the altars out over d:2-7 is supposed to encourage people to consider taking non-clearly-optimal gods. But it seems like a lot of people still just decide in advance the god they want or think is strongest for their character. If there was no guarantee that any given god would spawn, then it would psuch people to consider taking different gods each game.

I guess it would force you to not take one of those gods what, 3% of the time? Is that really much of a solution?

But in any case I don't understand what the problem is. If someone is bored with playing the same god over and over they can worship a different god (indeed, this proposal has the potential to prevent them from doing so). If they are not bored with playing the same god over and over then there is no issue. I can see this proposal making sense for winrate purists (that is, people who choose a god based purely on what's most likely to make them win, rather than as a character choice) but I think those represent a very small minority of players.

[TeshiAlair]

I for one find myself going "I'll go X unless I find an early altar to Y"

I think the 1-9 altar range really adds something to the game.

[duvessa]

If you want to make gods more balanced with each other, making some gods randomly unavailable seems like a pretty terrible way to accomplish that. It's like if you nerfed trolls by making 33% of them lose their claws at XL7. Of course, currently gods in crawl, like species, are deliberately unbalanced, and there are other reasons you might want to make some gods unavailable, but trying to justify it by talking about balance and optimal play makes you sound like you're unwilling to admit that you just think it would be cool, and are grasping at any straw you can to justify it in game design terms.

[Siegurt]

My initial suggestion wasn't an attempt to make the gods more balanced with one another, but rather to force you to think about how to respond to available choices, rather than always having the optimal god for whatever sort of thing you've decided to do available.

Really even if a random 1/3 of the gods weren't available on a particular game, it's not like there would be *no* god available that you could use, and use effectively. You might have to choose Sif or Kiku over an unavailable Veh, you might have to choose Oka over an unavailable Trog etc.

[partial]

altars randomly not spawning sounds annoying more than anything else

[Sprucery]

Really even if a random 1/3 of the gods weren't available on a particular game, it's not like there would be *no* god available that you could use, and use effectively.

But if I wanted to play a god I haven't won with yet, and none of those gods would be available, I'd feel gutted.

You might have to choose Sif or Kiku over an unavailable Veh, you might have to choose Oka over an unavailable Trog etc.

And if my last two wins were with Sif and Kiku and I now wanted to do Veh, how was gameplay improved by Veh not being available?

I think the current situation is good. Early altars give you interesting options, and if you really want to choose a certain temple god you may have to wait.

[Roderic]

Would be interesting to have more minor gods instead of temple gods in the future? I'm not sure what to say on this