Demigod Revamp (GASP!)


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Temple Termagant

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Post Friday, 18th July 2014, 03:22

Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

Now, I know it has been attempt and mulled over countless times, but I'd like to open my idea to criticism, notwithstanding failed others.

What if Demigod weren't a race? What if it were handled like a "god"? It If you want to start as a Demigod, then you will start as a Demigod Human. (Please, read on!)

Currently, Demigods are essentially the Human stats, aptitudes, and attribute progression as a Human only -1 to most aptitudes, double the attribute progression, and IIRC almost double the starting stats.

What if any race (or most) could be a Demigod? Here is how I envision it:

There's a 25% chance that an expiring "divine portal" occurs D:1-5. When you pray at it, there's a divine being that asks if you want to accept your divine heritage. "You acknowledge your divine heritage." Here's what happens if you do:

    You must abandon any god you've chosen and the ability to follow any thereafter.
    You lose 1-2 XL. (coin flip)
    +2 to Str, Int, Dex
    Gain a random attribute every 2nd XL, weighted by starting attribute distribution, so that casters are more likely to gain Int, and so on.
    All aptitudes -1
    Gain an additional 10% MP
    Gain an additional 10% HP
    No Piety, since you answer only to yourself! (Thanks, klink)
Back to my earlier comment about Humans, if you want to start as a Demigod, you will be a Human Demigod, exactly as the Demigod race is currently defined.

Please criticize as harshly yet as constructively as possible. I hope to at least play with an experimental branch!
Last edited by Ogre on Friday, 18th July 2014, 16:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Temple Termagant

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Post Friday, 18th July 2014, 04:34

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

EDIT: (this part of my post was me being dumb)

Would this decision come with a piety equivalent when you begin your path to becoming a fully realized demigod, or would this be a no piety religion?
Last edited by klink on Friday, 18th July 2014, 04:40, edited 3 times in total.

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Post Friday, 18th July 2014, 04:35

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

klink wrote:Why limit a Demigod "god" to just humans? Why not allow other races as well with this approach?


Read the post again.
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Temple Termagant

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Post Friday, 18th July 2014, 04:36

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

Oh damn it I missed that part of the sentence. My incomplete speed reading training has killed me again.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Friday, 18th July 2014, 05:03

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

That's an interesting idea.

I was thinking about this the other night, and I liked the idea of gaining some divine-flavored mutations, a-la a holy Ds. Wings, for instance, holy aura perhaps, so that by the time you're max level, you're some sort of divine being.

There has to be something "holy" flavored about them IMO. I see "demigod" and I picture "God-lite."
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Post Friday, 18th July 2014, 07:47

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

I don't have time the track down all the particulars, but practically this exact suggestion has been suggested before and shot down for a variety of reasons IIRC. (Two particular issues I see: often Dg is something you want to choose at the beginning of the game, and Dg having an easy time early on is one of their defining traits.)

If you haven't played many Dg games I would recommend playing some Dg games before recommending any changes.
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Post Friday, 18th July 2014, 08:58

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

and Dg having an easy time early on is one of their defining traits.)


Subsequent and meaningful changes in each DCSS version may make not so relevant the easier start that Dg provides compared to other races, but I cannot tell if this is true or not in the most recent versions since I don't roll Dg usually. Particularly I did not experience that easier start compared to other combos.
Last edited by Roderic on Friday, 18th July 2014, 09:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Friday, 18th July 2014, 08:58

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

Giving up 1-2 XL in the D: 1-5 range sounds like something completely crazy which I don't know why anyone would consider doing. Tying that to also giving up choice of god is just kind of out there.

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Post Friday, 18th July 2014, 09:38

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

I'm still not sure why Dg should be removed and replaced with a god (that doesn't even sound very good).

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Post Friday, 18th July 2014, 16:32

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

What about myyyy suggestiooooooooon?

Temple Termagant

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Post Friday, 18th July 2014, 16:58

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

klink wrote:EDIT: (this part of my post was me being dumb)

Would this decision come with a piety equivalent when you begin your path to becoming a fully realized demigod, or would this be a no piety religion?

I edited the OP to include that it has no piety. You answer to no one but yourself!

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Post Friday, 18th July 2014, 17:40

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

The real proposal here is for a god who does nothing but passively increasing some stats, with no piety. That's a pretty boring god.

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Post Friday, 18th July 2014, 18:29

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

Actually the proposal here is IMO replaces

a lackluster race with no god

with

a lackluster god for almost all races, without spending neither a god slot nor a race slot.
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Post Friday, 18th July 2014, 18:48

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

Current Dg is pretty interesting by the way.

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Post Friday, 18th July 2014, 18:50

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

is a human worshipping cheibriados without the great abilities and no slowpoke movement really that interesting
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Post Friday, 18th July 2014, 18:56

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

and also bigger HP and MP but slower leveling oh wait it's not really the same thing whoops

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Post Friday, 18th July 2014, 19:09

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

Bloax wrote:is a human worshipping cheibriados without the great abilities and no slowpoke movement really that interesting


Let's not turn this into another shitty Chei thread, please.
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Post Friday, 18th July 2014, 19:15

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

basil wrote:
Bloax wrote:is a human worshipping cheibriados without the great abilities and no slowpoke movement really that interesting


Let's not turn this into another shitty Chei thread, please.

I think this has to do more with the proposal being like Chei in that it grants you stat increases, but without the god abilities and slow movement.
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Post Friday, 18th July 2014, 20:59

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

basil wrote:
Bloax wrote:is a human worshipping cheibriados without the great abilities and no slowpoke movement really that interesting


Let's not turn this into another shitty Chei thread, please.


Yes, let's please keep this a shitty Dg thread.

Spoiler: show
just like demigods are already
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Post Friday, 18th July 2014, 21:00

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

demigods are not a thread

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Post Friday, 18th July 2014, 21:45

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

To try to bring things back on topic somewhat:

Let's put aside the questionable ideas that are dispensable or easily changed (e.g., why only 25% chance for this, when currently demigod is always a possible option; why make player give up one or possibly two char levels at a point when those are pretty important; etc.) and try to get down to the fundamental idea.

Basically what OP suggests could be looked at as a kind of religious choice (in that it is mutually exclusive with other ones) that adds a bit of customization to your species choice.

Now one problem is that part of what's neat about demigods (and species choice in general) is that you don't get to look and see what things are like on the first few floors and what the RNG gives you before choosing. Rather, you have to make use of what drops in light of a choice you already made, which is more interesting. So that's one mark against the idea of switching demigods from species to a religion.

In terms of what it adds... Well, it is basically a pretty clunky way to give a very minor amount of customization to each species (tweak the aptitudes and HP/MP a little bit, and get a significant stat boost). But I don't think doing that to any current species really adds a new niche in terms of actual game play, and even if it were the case that taking a current species and giving it -1 apts and better stats and HP/MP would create a viable new species choice, then wouldn't it make more sense to just make that a species choice from the get go and let it worship whatever god it wants?

So at heart I think this would just be a rather inelegant feature that would not add much and would eliminate a pretty interesting species.

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Post Saturday, 19th July 2014, 04:26

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

All these DG ideas to have more to do with the DEMIGOD flavor than with the godless conduct / HP+MP+Skills growth curve that define the race.

The primary problem with Demigods is that the racial flavor is weird and would benefit from a reskinning.

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Post Monday, 21st July 2014, 15:53

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

Here's my suggestion:

When you get to the temple, you get a message saying "You are the unholy love child of <god1> and <god2>!" And then you get three random abilities from those two gods.
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Post Monday, 21st July 2014, 16:48

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

and into wrote:I think this would just be a rather inelegant feature that would not add much and would eliminate a pretty interesting species.


It would create a challenge race and Demigods would conceptually still exists because Humans who could pick the "Demigod religion" as a starting choice would also still exist.

The primary thing this would change is starting equipment, since with a Demigod, attributes are really a negligible factor after a few levels.
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Post Monday, 21st July 2014, 18:59

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

XuaXua wrote:The primary thing this would change is starting equipment, since with a Demigod, attributes are really a negligible factor after a few levels.

I was going to lock the thread for 'asked and answered' but... I'm just checking here. Are you trying to say dg stats are negligible because good stats aren't important? Because stats are really pretty strong now.
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Post Monday, 21st July 2014, 19:00

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

lobf wrote:What about myyyy suggestiooooooooon?

Please don't do this; your post got read even if no one replied. See the forum rules.
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Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 03:27

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

njvack wrote:
XuaXua wrote:The primary thing this would change is starting equipment, since with a Demigod, attributes are really a negligible factor after a few levels.

I was going to lock the thread for 'asked and answered' but... I'm just checking here. Are you trying to say dg stats are negligible because good stats aren't important? Because stats are really pretty strong now.


No, I'm stating that the variance in starting attributes that "current" demigod gets from selecting a class is negligible because demigods will even that out over time because demigod.

With that idea in place, the only benefit I can see that a "current" demigod gets from being a race and not a class is selectable starting equipment and minor preallocated skill points.
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Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 12:39

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

XuaXua wrote:With that idea in place, the only benefit I can see that a "current" demigod gets from being a race and not a class is selectable starting equipment and minor preallocated skill points.

Yes, that's what backgrounds do. As such, it's the only benefit to making anything a species and not a background -- aside from averting the confusing of having some species be species and others be backgrounds.
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Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 18:10

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

Lasty wrote:
XuaXua wrote:With that idea in place, the only benefit I can see that a "current" demigod gets from being a race and not a class is selectable starting equipment and minor preallocated skill points.

Yes, that's what backgrounds do. As such, it's the only benefit to making anything a species and not a background -- aside from averting the confusing of having some species be species and others be backgrounds.


Transforming the "current implementation"* of Demigod into a background actually opens up more choices of starting character for the player.

Consider that all backgrounds (except Demigod, if it were a background) are as homogenous and interchangeable over time for all races as starting attributes are for Demigods.

The benefit to the player would be that, as a Spriggan/Centaur/Troll Demigod, they'd get access to enhanced HP/MP/Attributes on level-up, and also have their racially-inherent Abilities they'd have, and have access to racially-enhanced skill aptitudes, but with the Demigod -1 penalty, and level slower with a -2 Demigod penalty than their racially-enhanced normal rate.

The only true issue to making Demigod a background would be the question of "what would we offer as a "background" from a "starting attribute/starting equipment/starting skill allocation" standpoint. The answer to that would be one of either (a) you get the same value for all 3 attributes + wanderer equipment, or (b) you get presented with a second menu to choose starting background that excludes the religious-based backgrounds.

I don't see what the big broo-hah-hah is over this, it's fairly simple in concept and applicability. And yes, it 100% abstracts out to a diety choice, albiet one you can only start the game with, not one you can acquire.

* - where current implementation of Demigod (1) cannot follow a god, (2) levels slower, has 1 less skill aptitude in all skills than a human, has +10% HP/L, +20% MP/Lenhancer gets enhanced attributes on level-up, (3)
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Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 18:18

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

XuaXua wrote:Consider that all backgrounds (except Demigod, if it were a background) are as homogenous and interchangeable over time

I'm pretty sure that is working as intended. Consider that Wz and Fi/Be used to get some bonus mana and HP, respectively; now they just get slightly more Spellcasting/Fighting.
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Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 18:19

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

Sar wrote:
XuaXua wrote:Consider that all backgrounds (except Demigod, if it were a background) are as homogenous and interchangeable over time

I'm pretty sure that is working as intended.

And at no point did I say change that, for backgrounds that aren't Demigod, if Demigod were to be treated as a background.
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Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 18:20

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

Well if Demigod were a background, it would differ from other backgrounds; in fact, it would work more as a race. Hmmm.
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Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 18:33

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

Sar wrote:Well if Demigod were a background, it would differ from other backgrounds; in fact, it would work more as a race. Hmmm.


If you prefer to to go that route, then it would work better as a racial enhancer to any given race.

If you selected "Demigod", you would then be re-presented with the species list (excluding Demigod) to choose a species.
Then when selecting backgrounds, the divine options would be excluded, as well as any inapplicable to the given selected species.
Existing "Demigod" would persist if one selected "Human".
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Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 18:38

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

That reminds me of proposals to make Ds/Mu/Vp/Gh work similarly. They were all shot down; I think if you search the forums you can find the reasons why.
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Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 18:49

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

Sar wrote:That reminds me of proposals to make Ds/Mu/Vp/Gh work similarly. They were all shot down; I think if you search the forums you can find the reasons why.


I can both see why someone would request that, since Demonspawn Centaur, Mummy Spriggan, Vampire Kobold and Ghoul Troll would all outwardly appear to be cool things with double-enhancers, but I can also see where that would fail if the in-game concept of "Demonspawn/Mummy/Vampire/Ghoul" were genericized.

TANGENT: By "genericized", take (for example) the concept of vampires from the new TV show "The Strain"; it introduces a biologically-altering Vampire concept, where the end result is all "vampires" created by it will end up biologically similar. In this sense, Spriggan/Troll/Human/Centaur infected as a "Strain" vampire would all end up as "Strain" vampires, losing any Spriggan-ness,Troll-ness,Humanity/Centaurity they had previously (probably to the point of shedding 2 extra legs in the case of Centaurs); becoming a "generic" vampire, if you would.

I can see that same genericizm working similarly for Ghouls and Mummies and even the mutating Demonspawn, who all get altered abilities to compensate for whatever they were in their prior lives.

Certainly the current implementation of Demigod would also fall in that same generic mode, but it doesn't have to be. One perspective is that Demigod doesn't have to be implemented that way; unlike those other 4, Demigod is a simple enough divergence (it really only alters attributes, aptitudes and diety choice) that it is almost a shame it isn't implemented in the fashion the OP and I have described (barring the OP's use of a "divine portal" concept, which I think has merit as a separate idea).
Last edited by XuaXua on Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 18:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 18:52

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

I think what I want to convey is that current Crawl development trend is to value opaqueness and uniformity. Having one background that doesn't act as any background in the game and effectively sort of doubles the amount of races goes directly against it.

Of course I am not a developer and can't speak for them. Just how I see it.

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Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 19:19

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

Sar wrote:I think what I want to convey is that current Crawl development trend is to value opaqueness and uniformity.

I can't decide if this is a poke at the devteam or if you meant to type "transparency" but your brain mixed up the words.

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Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 19:24

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

Whoops, it's the second thing.

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Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 19:28

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

It begins.
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Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 20:01

Re: Demigod Revamp (GASP!)

Opaqueness, or lack of transparency, by translation: number hiding, which makes sense in that context. I didn't read that as a criticism.
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