Brainstorm: a better ranged combat

[PleasingFungus]

Also during this piece of the game, a patch was pushed that increased sling accuracy by not requiring ranged attacks to pass two separate attack tests.

This didn't happen, actually. There was some confusion over whether there were two separate attack tests, but in the end it appeared that there were not; no change was made.

[Lasty]

Oops, my mistake. In that case lemme add that sling accuracy is remarkably bad for most of the game, but the damage is high enough that it still works out to being quite strong.

[Bloax]

Well slings are exceptional in the fact that they have plenty of ammo early in the game in the form of stones (and thus wasting ammo isn't really a concern), and I can tell you that crossbows are no exception to this accuracy problem. (Except they aren't swimming in ammo!)

[tasonir]

Damage/accuracy/delay (assuming sling bullets for slings):
Hunting sling: 9/2/12
Greatsling: 12/-1/14
Hand crossbow: 11/5/15
Arbalest: 18/2/19
Triple crossbow: 23/0/23
Shortbow: 8/1/13
Longbow: 15/0/17

Crossbows are now special-cased to have a minimum delay of 10.

I really, really want to try a 23 damage crossbow game now. I understand they're rare, and require 26 skill to get to the min of 10, but damned if a ranged GSC+1 isn't appealing as an endgame. You'll probably fire a lot more from hand crossbows/arbalests, but hey. It's kobold hunter time again

[MDK]

Can I question the wisdom of special-casing crossbow min delay? Across a lot of weapons once you get to min delay on a lighter weapon you're at less than or equal to 1 delay on a stronger weapon. That is, one weapon bridges well to the next.

Examples: scimitar min delay gets you to greatsword 1 delay; min-delay greatsword gets you to claymore 1 delay. Axes do the same thing (hand axe ->broad axe->battleaxe->exec axe), maces/flails do the same thing (flail->great mace), polearms do the same thing (spear->halberd->glaive->bardiche).

Obviously, there are exceptions (short blades bridge really well and dire flails are excellent, lajatangs essentially are quarterstaves with blades). Even across new-ranged, bows bridge and slings work like short blades. Why are crossbows special-cased?

[scorpionwarrior]

Have you tried new crossbows yet? It's really nice not having to spam ranged attack ~15 times before melee enemies get up in your face. More damage and more delay is exactly what ranged combat needed imo.

[crate]

I agree that xbow min delay special casing is weird and personally I don't think it should exist, but my criticisms are purely design-oriented there.

Caring about the actual number of your attack delay on ranged weapons makes no sense. From a player perspective, all you care about is damage/delay--or damage per turn. (Of course, this also suggests that simply changing xbow stats a bit and removing the special-cased delay is reasonably easy and not very disruptive.)

[damiac]

Can I question the wisdom of special-casing crossbow min delay? Across a lot of weapons once you get to min delay on a lighter weapon you're at less than or equal to 1 delay on a stronger weapon. That is, one weapon bridges well to the next.

Examples: scimitar min delay gets you to greatsword 1 delay; min-delay greatsword gets you to claymore 1 delay. Axes do the same thing (hand axe ->broad axe->battleaxe->exec axe), maces/flails do the same thing (flail->great mace), polearms do the same thing (spear->halberd->glaive->bardiche).

Obviously, there are exceptions (short blades bridge really well and dire flails are excellent, lajatangs essentially are quarterstaves with blades). Even across new-ranged, bows bridge and slings work like short blades. Why are crossbows special-cased?

But... who cares about weapon progression? Nobody sticks with a hand axe until min delay, then switches to a broad axe until min delay, then battleaxe, then exec axe. So while I suppose the pattern is pleasing in a way, it has about 0 impact on game play.

Having just played a bow using centaur through the game, my main complaint about ranged is that it somehow feels simultaneously brokenly OP and too weak at the same time. I think a good way to improve this would be Increasing damage(Maybe 1.5X the current power), and making ranged weapons slower(2X current delay), so they end up with a lower DPS(Or DPA i guess), but each shot counts more, so they feel much more powerful. That might also help with the targeting tedium associated, as you'd be firing fewer shots per combat.

[Patashu]

The problem with that is that firing an arrow then, say, being crystal speared twice before you can react sounds awful.

[scorpionwarrior]

The problem with that is that firing an arrow then, say, being crystal speared twice before you can react sounds awful.

Why would you be using ranged weapons against a crystal spear dude if you weren't at mindelay or very near mindelay? I dont understand unless you're talking about energy randomisation

[Sar]

Energy randomization exists for movement purposes only.

[neil]

The problem with that is that firing an arrow then, say, being crystal speared twice before you can react sounds awful.

Why would you be using ranged weapons against a crystal spear dude if you weren't at mindelay or very near mindelay? I dont understand unless you're talking about energy randomisation

damiac proposed making the mindelay either 1.2 or 1.25 for shortbows and either 1.4 or 1.65 for longbows, which would allow normal-speed monsters to get multiple attacks in one player shot.

[Klown]

Hunting Sling 1-ups the shortbow in every way?

[damiac]

The problem with that is that firing an arrow then, say, being crystal speared twice before you can react sounds awful.

That's a very good point... I guess doubling the delay won't work then, otherwise people just wouldn't use ranged weapons in dangerous situations like that.

[kroki]

Does armour weight affect ranged combat in any way? Is there a penalty for shooting in melee range?

Asking cause with 12 skill in bows and a +4 short bow I barely hit anything pre lair and if by some miracle I do it's for shit damage. +0 blowgun with 0 skill is more effective at the moment.

[Lasty]

Armour weight and range don't matter for ranged combat any more than for melee combat. For some reason, accuracy on ranged weapons does seem to be pretty bad, but I'm surprised that you're having trouble with a +4 bow. I recently had a game where I did d6 through d8 without any trouble with a -1 bow grafted to my hands with 0 skill -- until I ran out of arrows. Oh, and I was under Dith penance too. Don't ask.

Blowguns with poison needles are generally better than almost any other option for D1 through D10 or so in my experience. After that other things start catching up a bit.

Edited per duvessa's correction below.

[duvessa]

Accuracy on ranged weapons seems bad now because it is basically the same as accuracy on melee weapons, which is bad compared to accuracy on old ranged weapons or accuracy on spells.
Armour penalties do apply to ranged combat now, same as for melee (throwing also gets the unarmed penalties).