[Orc Priest Smiting] Beogh is a P-word


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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 6th April 2011, 13:45

[Orc Priest Smiting] Beogh is a P-word

I've had it with orc priests.

No, actually, I've had it with Beogh.

What the HECK must orc priests do desecrating the body or sacrificing to please Beogh that he goes out of his busy diety way to rain down pure death upon any adventurer? Even the most minor of orc priests can simply ask for AND RECEIVE instant death on a target (seemingly as much as they want, but I'm sure there is a delay/piety mechanic in place to restrict this, right?)

Sure, orc priests are a threat and run away if you have 20 hit points, but let's be honest here. Beogh is a GAAAAHHHHD. He's really THAT concerned that of the bajillions of orc priests out there, Joe Orc Priest needs him to lean out of his barka lounger, taking him away from Days of Our Lives, and press his mighty soiled thumb down upon any unbeliever Joe cries about? Why does Joe Orc Priest need that potentially en-magic'd mace he's carrying? And for that argument, why does Joe Orc Priest even bother with armor?

Joe Orc Priest: "Waaah, I need a smite, kill that adventurer for me. Oh, and while you're at it Beogh, why don't you defile the body yourself? I'm-a go eat this bacon and sausage."
"Yes, massa," cries Beogh the enslavened god.

Heck, what's Joe Orc Priest doing running around with three armed standard orcs and optional orc (wizard|warrior|companion priest)(s)? What does he need them for when he has Beogh to do all his work?

Seriously.

TOO LONG; DON'T READ:
Revise Orc Priest smiting ability. Transform it to reduce a target to 1-15% of total health (reducing target to, at best for the orc priest, 1 HP) and make the orc priest have to finish the job manually. Consider a re-smite when target reaches 8%+ health (or optionally an amount greater than one hit by the orc weapon). This makes them dangerous to all adventurers of all levels, but not insta-death to any. Percentages are your friends.
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Post Wednesday, 6th April 2011, 13:57

Re: [Orc Priest Smiting] Beogh is a P-word

Are you complaining about HOPr play, or getting killed by orc priests? You're incoherent enough I can't actually tell. :/

If you meant the former: good HOPr play is to basically ignore smite. You want to get your piety up ASAP, so you can start collecting followers when you find them. Smite burns way to much piety to use regularly, and even using it occasionally can make the difference between converting that first orc band or having to put them down / getting splatted. So you should pretty much only use it in emergencies.

Basically, HOPr DNE Orc Priest. You can't play like they do.

If you meant the later: everyone gets killed by orc priests, and we all hate 'em. I don't see a reason to change them though,
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Post Wednesday, 6th April 2011, 14:09

Re: [Orc Priest Smiting] Beogh is a P-word

mageykun wrote:Are you complaining about HOPr play, or getting killed by orc priests? You're incoherent enough I can't actually tell. :/


Read the "Too Long; Don't Read" if you don't want the story.

mageykun wrote:If you meant the later: everyone gets killed by orc priests, and we all hate 'em. I don't see a reason to change them though,


I do. Beogh is a god, not a slave.

Also, came back here to try and ninja-edit the OP to revise the "reduce it to, at best, 1 HP" to "reduce it to, at best, X HP where X equals the target's experience level". This would give higher level characters a better chance while still uber-buffing orc priests against them damage-wise.
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Post Wednesday, 6th April 2011, 14:51

Re: [Orc Priest Smiting] Beogh is a P-word

In terms of flavor, Beogh is no more of a pansy god (in the sense of "Here, let me do everything for you") than Trog, who sends nigh-unstoppable killing machines to do all your dirty work for you, get hit with all your curses, etc. You have to look at it from the gods' perspective: Killing 1 or 2 adventurers for your servants is small potatoes, everything in the dungeon ranging from rats to orb guardians is out to kill and maim with varying levels of effectiveness. Dealing one killing blow to one hero isn't that big an issue.

In terms of balance, Orc Priests are basically pushovers unless you get totally surrounded by tougher orcs and smited 2-3 times a turn. A lot less than that can kill you a lot easier, at around the same time. I would much prefer to be 2-deep on the Seas of Orc than to run into a single damned Warlord on O:3 or O:4.
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Post Wednesday, 6th April 2011, 15:12

Re: [Orc Priest Smiting] Beogh is a P-word

Smiting is a standard ability used by many priest monsters and also demons. There's no way we're special-casing it for orc priests. If you have a hard time with them, ask for help on the advice forum instead of asking for a nerf here.
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Post Wednesday, 6th April 2011, 15:21

Re: [Orc Priest Smiting] Beogh is a P-word

Regarding Trog, yes he sends a berserked minion, but said minion still has to defeat the target and is not 100% controllable.

Regarding the nerf, I'm not asking for a nerf, I'm suggesting a redesign that makes Orc Priests less deadly to weak characters and much more dangerous to strong characters as follows:

1) I'm not certain how existing orc priest smite mechanics work, so I request someone to please pitch that up as a comparison (please list damage, chance/rational of use, chance of success, variables surrounding success/usage).

2) What I suggest is that smite requests not cause instant death, but instead create enough damage to immediately reduce the target character to a very low percentage of his total health, somewhere between 15% and 1%.

- This makes the smite quite dangerous to higher level target characters who might be reduced to 1 HP; to fix this, the minimum HP a target character could be reduced to by smite could equal the target character's experience level; smite could only reduce a level 10 character down to 10 hit points at most.

- Potential damage applied could be adjusted based on the target character's worship of certain other gods.

- This also frees up orc priests who would otherwise spam smite to further reduce a character (smite cannot reduce the target character below XP level of hit points) to instead pursue other combat options.

Conceptually, the request I'm making fits with the idea that the priest is often found armed with heavier weapons and armor than standard orcs (he needs them to "finish the job"), doesn't make them an "oh shit there's an awake and aware orc prie... insta-dead" monster to early characters, and gives his orc pals that usually are found with him something to do. It also makes him quite scary, but again not insta-deadly, to high level characters.

This section is the discussion area for game design. I'm asking to discuss game design. Yes, I'm having a hard time with orc priests, but I see a way to make them fairer to play against and yet even deadlier through re-design. I don't see anything wrong with what I'm posting.
Last edited by XuaXua on Wednesday, 6th April 2011, 15:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Wednesday, 6th April 2011, 15:30

Re: [Orc Priest Smiting] Beogh is a P-word

minmay wrote:You realize this would make orc priests the most dangerous monster in the entire game by a huge margin, right?


They aren't already?

My ideas don't have to be used outright.

This is a thread in a design discussion forum. Suggest alternatives / adjust my suggestion.

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Post Wednesday, 6th April 2011, 15:33

Re: [Orc Priest Smiting] Beogh is a P-word

XuaXua wrote:1) I'm not certain how existing orc priest smite mechanics work, so I request someone to please pitch that up as a comparison (please list damage, chance/rational of use, chance of success, variables surrounding success/usage).

Ask the bots. Smite does 7-17 damage. They use the ability like any other monster select a spell or an ability to use. It's mostly random. Surrounding conditions don't affect the choice of spell/ability. The monster only consider "can I cast it?" and "would it be useful?".

XuaXua wrote:2) What I suggest is that smite requests not cause instant death, but instead create enough damage to immediately reduce the target character to a very low percentage of his total health, somewhere between 15% and 1%.

We have late game opponents who reduce your health to 50% and it's already considered one of the most dangerous thing in the game. You're proposing to give a much more powerful ability to a HD:3 monster.
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Post Wednesday, 6th April 2011, 15:38

Re: [Orc Priest Smiting] Beogh is a P-word

galehar wrote:
XuaXua wrote:1) I'm not certain how existing orc priest smite mechanics work, so I request someone to please pitch that up as a comparison (please list damage, chance/rational of use, chance of success, variables surrounding success/usage).

Ask the bots.


Thanks; I keep forgetting they know more than they let on.

XuaXua wrote:2) What I suggest is that smite requests not cause instant death, but instead create enough damage to immediately reduce the target character to a very low percentage of his total health, somewhere between 15% and 1%.

We have late game opponents who reduce your health to 50% and it's already considered one of the most dangerous thing in the game. You're proposing to give a much more powerful ability to a HD:3 monster.[/quote]

A HD:3 monster that can currently take out XL:4 player characters with a single unblockable whack.

My suggestion comes from a place where I feel something is currently broken and obviously isn't not the best thing ever, but that "thank" from JJ early in this thread life makes me think others may believe the same thing I do.

Can each smite request then call down 20-25% damage, and total smite damage over time can only reduce down to an XL value and not cause death?
edit: Diet Torment?

I'm also trying to understand, conceptually, why Beogh would be such a pushover to his priests. How many virgins do they sacrifice to him daily to meet his quota?
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Post Wednesday, 6th April 2011, 15:44

Re: [Orc Priest Smiting] Beogh is a P-word

XuaXua wrote:A HD:3 monster that can currently take out XL:4 player characters with a single unblockable whack.

My suggestion comes from a place where I feel something is currently broken and obviously isn't not the best thing ever, but that "thank" from JJ early in this thread life makes me think others may believe the same thing I do.

Can each smite request then call down 20-25% damage, and total smite damage over time can only reduce down to an XL value and not cause death?

I'm also trying to understand, conceptually, why Beogh would be such a pushover to his priests. How many virgins do they sacrifice to him daily to meet his quota?

A human at XL:4 and no fighting has 26 HP, so can survive at least one smite. But anyway, orc priests are dangerous but interesting monsters. Manipulate your LOS to avoid them (fog, evaporate, corners). And please, stop this non-sense with Beogh. They are priest monsters, so they use a divine ability. What's wrong?
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Post Wednesday, 6th April 2011, 15:46

Re: [Orc Priest Smiting] Beogh is a P-word

You have lost all credibility to me by suggesting this is a good idea.

1) Orc priests are not the most dangerous monsters in the game. Many others are more dangerous. Orc wizards, for one.

2) The ability you are suggesting is ridiculously overpowered for such an early monster. This ability would make orc priests much stronger than they are now.

3) Beogh's strength as a player should not be a single ridiculously overpowered ability but should be about the ally play (as it is now).
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Post Wednesday, 6th April 2011, 15:47

Re: [Orc Priest Smiting] Beogh is a P-word

galehar wrote: And please, stop this non-sense with Beogh. They are priest monsters, so they use a divine ability. What's wrong?


:)

My answer to that can be summed up with the Futurama episode "Godfellas". :)
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Post Wednesday, 6th April 2011, 15:48

Re: [Orc Priest Smiting] Beogh is a P-word

casmith789 wrote:3) Beogh's strength as a player should not be a single ridiculously overpowered ability but should be about the ally play (as it is now).


I have no idea where everyone keeps getting the idea that I'm discussing the playable Hill Orc character.
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Post Wednesday, 6th April 2011, 16:00

Re: [Orc Priest Smiting] Beogh is a P-word

Agreed. I don't like this proposal. This proposal would turn priests into mini-Tormentors on D:4 that potentially spawn in groups, and rarely without orc wizards (ranged attacks) nearby. Also, unless Smite is changed universally to hit for 15% HP, they will need to be special-cased. If Smite universally hits for 15% HP, you will die more often, since these monsters all smite.

Sure, it is extremely annoying to die to an orc priest smiting you in the early-mid dungeon, but it can be avoided and worked around. I think this proposal would let orc priests kill you all the way through the game.

(I'm not trying to hate on you, I just don't think it is a good solution)


Also, people think you are talking about a PC because you keep referring to Beogh, who only noticeably interacts with players, but only theoretically or vaguely interacts with NPC orcs as the generic "divine providence," even though he is the god of orcs. The smite messages don't read, "The orc priest calls for Beogh to smite you. Beogh smites you!" even if it is implied thematically.
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Post Wednesday, 6th April 2011, 16:04

Re: [Orc Priest Smiting] Beogh is a P-word

dolphin wrote:Also, unless Smite is changed universally to hit for 15% HP, they will need to be special-cased. If Smite universally hits for 15% HP, you will die more often, since these monsters all smite.

...

(I'm not trying to hate on you, I just don't think it is a good solution)


Thanks, there are enough (a couple) being overtly rude earlier that I'm grateful you didn't add to it.

What I was working towards was that a religious smite wouldn't cause a death, but just create X% damage. Considering multiple smites of X% damage, it would only ever be able to reduce a target to Y amount, where Y is possibly a value equal to experience level. At this moment in time, in-game, there is zero reason why an orc priest shouldn't smite-spam any target to death. This change would give them a reason to smite-spam, and then come in for a physical kill.
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