Removal: Fish ponds

[Psiweapon]

Removal, or tweak.

Why? They're grindy.

Big fishes and sharks (no matter that they autobuff when smelling blood now) are trivially easy to kill in a riskless way, even when their damage output should be threatening.

The easiest way is to stand diagonally adjacent to them while out of the water, although any place where only one of them can melee you is enough. You attack them, if they give you a nasty bite, retreat one space and wait - since they can't attack you anymore, they won't even interrupt your 5-mashing. Rinse and repeat untill every fish in the pond is dead and your XP meter has raised by whatever amount.

Completely thoughtless if you happen to use polearms, but I do it with regular melee. Every. Single. Time.

Electric eels are very much okay because they're usually very effective area denial monsters, unless you happen to have rElec (but that's one of the things rElec is there for)

E: Typo. A "ting" is one of the blue orbs get-100-gain-a-life in Rayman.

[jejorda2]

They submerge if you hit them with a pole arm, and you can't hit them anymore. I think they should probably submerge unless more than one of them can hit you. Maybe if their AI is changed to never enter water that is adjacent to a space that is adjacent to only a single water space?

[cerebovssquire]

They submerge if you hit them with a pole arm, and you can't hit them anymore. I think they should probably submerge unless more than one of them can hit you. Maybe if their AI is changed to never enter water that is adjacent to a space that is adjacent to only a single water space?

That just reduces the frequency of times you can clear a pond without risk. It means that characters that can't take max-damage hits from two (or whatever number of) sharks/fishes without dying shouldn't attempt to clear the pond. But once you do have enough maxHP for that, the strategy Psiweapon describes still works.

Besides the big fish/shark ponds, the Kiku/Yred altar vault with big fish/goldfish zombies suffers from this problem.

[Psiweapon]

They submerge if you hit them with a pole arm, and you can't hit them anymore. I think they should probably submerge unless more than one of them can hit you. Maybe if their AI is changed to never enter water that is adjacent to a space that is adjacent to only a single water space?

I wasn't actually aware they were smarter against polearms, my bad (I don't use polearms frequently).

Your AI suggestion seemed good to me, but if it's as cerebovssquire says, it wouldn't solve anything, just making the grinding for XP available only to more powerful characters which in fact have less need of said sweet expees.

[Bloax]

If anything I'd like eels submerging if you're ~5 tiles way, because not only are they the only threatening water monster - but they're also really strong ones.
Which means that you'll have to use some long-range way of dealing with them, because the alternative is suffering lightning shocks equivalent to every step you take towards them. (And that's just for one eel!)

I would just like them to be a bit less punishing than that. (they're seriously assholes right now)

[Klown]

Remove submerging and let any remaining fish spray you with water for a little ranged damage.

[Psiweapon]

If anything I'd like eels submerging if you're ~5 tiles way, because not only are they the only threatening water monster - but they're also really strong ones.
Which means that you'll have to use some long-range way of dealing with them, because the alternative is suffering lightning shocks equivalent to every step you take towards them. (And that's just for one eel!)

I would just like them to be a bit less punishing than that. (they're seriously assholes right now)

Yes, yes they are and could use some toning down, but that still better than big fishes and sharks; because a high-damage area-denial monster at least forces you to take it into account and act accordingly in the sense that it poses a challenge (they also have flimsy HP), but a monster that's just a bag of XP waiting to be ripped isn't very entertaining unless you happen to like grinding.

[damiac]

Electric eels kinda fuck up autoexplore currently, if you can't really handle them when you happen across some. You often have to place quite a few exclusions to completely avoid them.

Having them submerge would just mean players would autoexplore into getting blasted by eels, who now get multiple shots on them as they try to walk away. I don't like autoexplore killing the player, otherwise optimal play is never to use autoexplore, therefore, tediousness.

Fish are just a waste of time, like Psiweapon said. Aside from stuff like sewers and shoals, they are just free xp, or at best, an opportunity to kill yourself in a really stupid way.

[duvessa]

Electric eels are very much okay because they're usually very effective area denial monsters, unless you happen to have rElec (but that's one of the tings rElec is there for)

I don't agree with this. Electric eels, krakens, lava snakes. etc. have exactly the same problem as other water/lava monsters, they just make the water/lava pool effectively a few squares bigger.

[Psiweapon]

Electric eels are very much okay because they're usually very effective area denial monsters, unless you happen to have rElec (but that's one of the tings rElec is there for)

I don't agree with this. Electric eels, krakens, lava snakes. etc. have exactly the same problem as other water/lava monsters, they just make the water/lava pool effectively a few squares bigger.

A boost to water/lava size the player can actually influence and from which items, XP, and dungeon features can be wrestled; which is a lot more than can be garnered from a real lava pool the same size as the effective size of the a boosted by creature water/lava pool. With water the difference isn't so big, but in the case of lava is quite large.

[reaver]

I removed melee-only, liquid-only monsters from the liquid spawn tables. This won't affect vaults and such, but if this change work swell a review of vaults which use these monsters will probably happen.

[TeshiAlair]

Idea- replace fish with Deep Ones, that spawn when you walk next to water/in water, but will follow you on land. This will actually make water more of the zoning obstacle it is meant to be.

[Lasty]

Idea- replace fish with Deep Ones, that spawn when you walk next to water/in water, but will follow you on land. This will actually make water more of the zoning obstacle it is meant to be.

But you can still autoexplore into them. If water is a zoning obstacle, it needs to stop autoexplore / self-exclude, which would be irritating and totally break Shoals.

Remove submerging and let any remaining fish spray you with water for a little ranged damage.

Have you ever been sprayed with water? "15 dead in yet another tragic squirt gun fight."

[dck]

high pressure water injection injury

[MiraclePrism]

Idea- replace fish with Deep Ones, that spawn when you walk next to water/in water, but will follow you on land. This will actually make water more of the zoning obstacle it is meant to be.

We had monster octopodes fulfilling this role for a short time and then they got removed again. I'm not really sure why.

[Bim]

Having some sort of area denial water monsters are good and can be interesting. Admittedly sharks on their own present very little danger, but getting stuck between them to one side and an enemy on another can make things interesting, this is especially true on the 'walkways' map with a single path and water at either side. This is especially the case earlier on when you're moving slowly through water.

As always, rather than removing them can't we make them better?
Scarier water monsters is one idea, or ones that are more intelligent and don't attack until you're in water or under attack from others (I don't know how well this can be done).

[Psiweapon]

Having some sort of area denial water monsters are good and can be interesting. Admittedly sharks on their own present very little danger, but getting stuck between them to one side and an enemy on another can make things interesting, this is especially true on the 'walkways' map with a single path and water at either side. This is especially the case earlier on when you're moving slowly through water.

As always, rather than removing them can't we make them better?
Scarier water monsters is one idea, or ones that are more intelligent and don't attack until you're in water or under attack from others (I don't know how well this can be done).

Of course that improvement > removal, but right now (in MY experience, though it seems to be shared), big fishes and sharks are just big grindbags.

Note that reaver has simply disabled them from spawning in random water pools, not annihilated them from existence, hopefully at some point in the future a better implementation will allow them to be re-introduced to the wild; or someone comes up with more interesting water monsters.

Bear in mind that as a player I do enjoy the big XP bags but since they bring to the table little else than a (nearly) riskless reward, I don't think they add much of value.

I'll miss them, actually.

[Bim]

Yeah, they're definitely XP bags in most situations, especially when they spawn later on. I'm sure it should be possible to create better water enemies.

I've been thinking about this, and I think a giant squid type monster would be good. With constriction to stop you moving away from the water it'd be a lot more dangerous, and it could have some pretty heavy attack and defense to make it a more significant later game challenge.

[Psiweapon]

Yeah, they're definitely XP bags in most situations, especially when they spawn later on. I'm sure it should be possible to create better water enemies.

I've been thinking about this, and I think a giant squid type monster would be good. With constriction to stop you moving away from the water it'd be a lot more dangerous, and it could have some pretty heavy attack and defense to make it a more significant later game challenge.

Mini-kraken?

[Bim]

Mini-kraken?

Sort of, I was just thinking something with snake-like constriction to stop you moving away and sort of doing a risk-free attack cycle. All sorts of other mechanics could be added like Barbs (like the manticore ones, which hurt you if you move) and ink which blinds(confuses? stuns?) you.

I just feel that water can and should be an interesting part of the game, and adding some challenging water monsters shouldn't be to difficult!

[Roderic]

Make unexpected floods for some areas triggered by a trap, where fishes and sharks are released in addition. Interesting challenge I think.

[WalrusMcFishSr]

Phial of Sharks
Sharknado

[PleasingFungus]

We had monster octopodes fulfilling this role for a short time and then they got removed again. I'm not really sure why.

"Monster octopodes" were dummy enemies added as part of adding the player race; someone didn't realize this and tried to use them as actual enemies, which didn't really work. Compare:

octopode (x) | Spd: 10 | HD: 6 | HP: 29-56 | AC/EV: 1/5 | Dam: 20, 4(constrict) | weapons, items, doors, amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: magic(8), drown | XP: 227 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal.
merfolk (m) | Spd: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 10 | HP: 44-65 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Dam: 22 | weapons, items, doors, amphibious | Res: magic(40), drown | Chunks: contam | XP: 301 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal.

They were harmless bags of XP. (Also, they provided hilarious numbers of hats.)

It's not as though Shoals had any shortage of aquatic enemies to begin with!

[dck]

Also hilarious numbers of D: 6 dtridents.
silly podes

[nagdon]

Letting more water monsters constrict / give held status (constriction without damage, like inept mimics) would be a good change, as it would block the hit and run tactic. Adding a weak mesmerizing monster could also work, but it would make Shoals less unique. Other suggestions:

• Venomspitter (probably needs a better name): A fish with a Sting-like poisonous spit attack and better defenses than electric eels. It should be harder to shut it down with wands from range, but closing in to meele it shouldn't be completely suicidal even without rPois. Meele-only water-only creatures can be dangerous if you want to kill a ranged attacker near them in meele; unfortunately the strong attack and poor defense of electric eels makes wands/javelins/other attacks from the edge of the LOS more effective than closing in to meele them.
• Bloodshark: A shark enchanted and warped by potent blood magic, it can draw out the blood of its injured enemies from afar. It has an ability dealing 0.1*(missing hp of the foe) negative energy damage to a targetted foe (so when you approach it at full hp, it can't damage you, but if you run away below 10% hp, then a single casting is enough to kill you if you don't have rN+). This could easily negate hit-and-run tactics, especially if it doesn't cast the spell in meele range (it is busy eating the character).
  

To handle autoexplore interaction better, perhaps there should be an option to place an exclusion on a whole pool, excluding every square having los to any water square in a connected component. This would also help with electric eels (ahthough placing 3-4 exclusions on the "corners" of the pool is not too hard).

[and into]

Mean posts and the replies deleted.

The immediate objective of this thread was more or less implemented by reaver (a GDD success story, hurrah!), but I'll leave the thread open for general discussion of water since that seems to be where the thread has gone. If people keep being snippy and/or the thread gets weird it will be put under the care of Monsieur Yiuf, or simply locked.

Thank you!

[Bim]

Letting more water monsters constrict / give held status (constriction without damage, like inept mimics) would be a good change, as it would block the hit and run tactic. Adding a weak mesmerizing monster could also work, but it would make Shoals less unique. Other suggestions:

• Venomspitter (probably needs a better name): A fish with a Sting-like poisonous spit attack and better defenses than electric eels. It should be harder to shut it down with wands from range, but closing in to meele it shouldn't be completely suicidal even without rPois. Meele-only water-only creatures can be dangerous if you want to kill a ranged attacker near them in meele; unfortunately the strong attack and poor defense of electric eels makes wands/javelins/other attacks from the edge of the LOS more effective than closing in to meele them.
• Bloodshark: A shark enchanted and warped by potent blood magic, it can draw out the blood of its injured enemies from afar. It has an ability dealing 0.1*(missing hp of the foe) negative energy damage to a targetted foe (so when you approach it at full hp, it can't damage you, but if you run away below 10% hp, then a single casting is enough to kill you if you don't have rN+). This could easily negate hit-and-run tactics, especially if it doesn't cast the spell in meele range (it is busy eating the character).
  

To handle autoexplore interaction better, perhaps there should be an option to place an exclusion on a whole pool, excluding every square having los to any water square in a connected component. This would also help with electric eels (ahthough placing 3-4 exclusions on the "corners" of the pool is not too hard).

Great ideas. Having a few more ranged water creatures is a good idea, although the bloodshark might be a bit brutal.
Those octopodes are rather flimsy and I agree that Shoals has tons of aquatic enemies, but I think that the Shoals could probably do with keeping it's unique monsters/merfolk other than the occasional vault. I think a sort of melee water creature with ogre/troll-type stats and constriction would prove a significant enough early-mid game challenge. As long as it ducked down as soon as it was under ranged fire it'd be a very tricky opponent to anything other than big melee characters, and add a serious tactical element for casters.

[Psiweapon]

Yeah, they're definitely XP bags in most situations, especially when they spawn later on. I'm sure it should be possible to create better water enemies.

I've been thinking about this, and I think a giant squid type monster would be good. With constriction to stop you moving away from the water it'd be a lot more dangerous, and it could have some pretty heavy attack and defense to make it a more significant later game challenge.

A monster that works in the same way as a kraken, but with much less HD (I'm thinking lair depth) and damage, and (say) two tentacles, could fulfill a role similar to Electric Eels but with physical damage, and prepare players for an eventual kraken / tentacled starspawn encounter.

The question about this is whether adding another tentacled monster is a good idea or not.

[Bim]

A monster that works in the same way as a kraken, but with much less HD (I'm thinking lair depth) and damage, and (say) two tentacles, could fulfill a role similar to Electric Eels but with physical damage, and prepare players for an eventual kraken / tentacled starspawn encounter.

The question about this is whether adding another tentacled monster is a good idea or not.

True. Although I don't think this should normally be considered, tentacle monsters are rather a rarity in RL games on the whole (I think) so I don't think having another one in (as we only have two types I think) would be seen as overkill.

[duvessa]

The point of removing some of the harmless water monsters was to get rid of some of the harmless water monsters. Proposing to add more harmless water monsters instead is not likely to get you anywhere.

[Bim]

Duvessa, tone it down a bit - there's no need to be snarky with every comment. The main complaint with water creatures is that you can attack and retreat at leisure and the proposal of both ranged and constricting monsters counters that directly.

If you think they're harmless, why not suggest some ideas of your own? Surely even though you are firmly in the 'reductionist' camp, you still want to see new monsters and challenges?

[Psiweapon]

The point of removing some of the harmless water monsters was to get rid of some of the harmless water monsters. Proposing to add more harmless water monsters instead is not likely to get you anywhere.

Oh, Your Highness, please forgive this humble servant for not asking for your permission before tossing entirely speculative and hypothetical ideas back and forth.

Back on topic and trying hard to extract the slightest bit of constructiveness from the elf's comments:

Big fishes and sharks are XP bags. Electric eels are decent monsters.What are the differences between them? Big fishes and sharks are melee-only. Electric eels are glass cannons: they're easy to kill but at least they can pelt you from afar with lightning bolts. We know that ranged attacks is a property that can make pond monsters meaningful. Is there any other? (right now I can't come up with one, anybody?

Another thing that comes to mind is synergy between monsters: If a torpor snail spawned sometimes with the electric eels, they would be 2x as deadly (but I'm not sure if torpor snails are appropriate)

[duvessa]

We know that ranged attacks is a property that can make pond monsters meaningful.

I have already stated that I do not believe this. And no, I cannot come up with something that makes water monsters meaningful, short of something like a water monster that instantly kills you as soon as it enters LOS, which is not particularly good design. With anything else you can just move away from the water. Electric eels and krakens just make you move slightly further away.

If you think they're harmless, why not suggest some ideas of your own?

My idea is to not add any new water monsters, because water monsters are awful for reasons that have been explained several times in this very thread.

Surely even though you are firmly in the 'reductionist' camp, you still want to see new monsters and challenges?

I think that Crawl has far too many monsters already, so adding more is very bad. I certainly do not want to see new monsters unless they are so exceptionally good that their goodness outweighs the bad effects of making Crawl's monster list even longer (or, alternatively, until enough monsters are removed that the number of monsters becomes reasonable - given that the number has actually increased around 30% or 40% since 0.5, I do not expect this to happen for a long, long time).

[Bim]

We know that ranged attacks is a property that can make pond monsters meaningful.

I have already stated that I do not believe this. And no, I cannot come up with something that makes water monsters meaningful, short of something like a water monster that instantly kills you as soon as it enters LOS, which is not particularly good design. With anything else you can just move away from the water. Electric eels and krakens just make you move slightly further away.

That's true unless you need to get across the water/where they are. I've had a few games where the lair entrance has been surrounded by water filled with electric eels - that was pretty difficult and I ended up needing to find rElec to do it - that's exactly the kinda strategic thing that I love. Similarly some maps have huge bits of water which make it pretty much unavoidable that you'll have to get near the water.

Admittedly, water monsters will be more avoidable than most and may not be as dangerous as most, but we do need monsters up and down the scale and I believe that they could be expanded to be reasonably interesting and make water a less trivial threat outside shoals.

Ideas so far:
-Barbs which hurt when moving
-Constriction to stop moving
-Poison (especially strong poison)
-Mesmerize (I'm only so so keen about this)
-tentacles

[khalil]

We know that ranged attacks is a property that can make pond monsters meaningful.

I have already stated that I do not believe this. And no, I cannot come up with something that makes water monsters meaningful, short of something like a water monster that instantly kills you as soon as it enters LOS, which is not particularly good design. With anything else you can just move away from the water. Electric eels and krakens just make you move slightly further away.

They don't in shoals, because the land is small enough that just about everywhere is within kracken range.
It does hold true for other areas though.

[Roderic]

The main concern here is the existence of areas of water, aka ponds, where you can safely melee a water critter, aka fish, from the shore. So you either change the critters or change the environment. In short, fishes are only a challenge if you are in their environment, otherwise you have the upper hand.

Besides my proposal above of flood traps, I'd like to suggest dungeon levels partially flooded like those subterranean caves with freatic water or city-like layouts where streets are rivers like in Venice, and you have some bridges.

If some change could be done to fishes, I'd like that some of them should be able to jump over the water to reach a flying player as if it were at the same ground level.

I'm getting addicted to River Monsters TV show so that I see very potential in fishes an such.

[nilsbloodaxe]

Duvessa, tone it down a bit - there's no need to be snarky with every comment. The main complaint with water creatures is that you can attack and retreat at leisure and the proposal of both ranged and constricting monsters counters that directly.

This is not snark, but trying to get back on topic. This was a thread about removing melee-only, liquid-only monsters from random liquid ponds, which has been accomplished. If you have a good idea for a water monster, start a new thread, this one seems finished.

If you think they're harmless, why not suggest some ideas of your own? Surely even though you are firmly in the 'reductionist' camp, you still want to see new monsters and challenges?

Wanting to eliminate bad mechanics and stupid monsters is not being "reductionist," it is wanting to eliminate bad elements from the game. Other elements should be added if they are good, not just because they are new.