Jiyva mutations should be permanent


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Dungeon Dilettante

Posts: 2

Joined: Thursday, 19th June 2014, 02:14

Post Thursday, 19th June 2014, 02:57

Jiyva mutations should be permanent

To answer your question of 'Why?' I would have to say: Because quite simply right now Jiyva is too much of a "dice god" on regards to mutations. I mean, what is the point of having special god mutations if they are just as likely to be removed as they are to be gained? Sure that makes sense if we are talking about Xom whom mutates followers for the fun of it, but (as I see it) Jiyva is not so much about chaos as he is about slimes and consumption. To make another point on lore: Dissolution is not running around as much as he is oozing through the place, correct?

It is also makes sense mechanically, however. For example I have had great success with a monk character because Jiyva's statistic-shuffling made him practically untouchable . And the mutations were a massive help when they were gained - for example, even the most dangerous blademaster becomes a punchbag when you can grab disarm him, and when you are being barraged by multiple archers, the small jelly attachment comes in really handy... For as long as it lasts, that is.

With this in mind, I think Jiyva's mutations should be permanent. A few ways of incorporating this into the game could be:

1. Making special Jiyva's mutations simply permanent. Once you gain them, they do not abandon you (unless piety gets too low or you abandon Jiyva).

Pros:
+Faithful followers get a considerable avantage over time.
+Decent reason to worship Jiyva earlier on
Cons:
-Could make such followers a bit too overpowered. Eyeballs 3 with Translucent Skin 3 is a particularly deadly combination I got to experience (for a little bit, that is).

2. Making Jiyva biased towards rewaring "normal" mutations rather than Jiyva's own special mutations, whilst making the later permanent.

Pros:
+As per the above, however chance compensates for powerful mutations.
Cons:
-Depending on when you convert, it could be technically possible to never get a single Jiyva mutation, negating the original point of making the special mutations permanent.

3. Give Jiyva a passive chance to reward followers with his special mutations based on how pious they are. A new convert or low-rank worshipper will likely never get these special mutations, whilst an Arch-Jelly or Royal Jelly is guaranteed to get most, if not all, of them without much ado in a short time span.

Pros:
+Solves both of the above whilst giving a good reason to reach the "Royal Jelly" level (in addition to current passives, as well).
Cons:
-New converts or low-rank followers will not benefit as much from Jiyva mutations as before.

4. Allow players to sacrifice artifacts of their choosing to Jiyva, in exchange for a permanent Jiyva mutation. Slimes currently do not target artifacts at all, granting players an elegant option to do away with otherwise deemed useless artifacts in the dungeon.

Pros:
+Will solve the issue of a fully-Jiyva-mutated character being overpowered, as such characters will likely become rarer.
+Sacrifices are guaranteed to generate good Jiyva mutations only, as opposed to the god's grace which can grant a "normal" mutation instead.
Cons:
-Will likely reduce the overall amount of Jiyva mutations in a game to be far fewer than possible otherwise. Currently, it is theorically possible to maximize all Jiyva mutations (if only for a short time). In such a scenario, you would be entirely dependant on the total amount of artifacts in your game.
-What if you never sacrifice a single artifact, for whatever reason?

Please do note that I am not saying Jiyva's mutations are overpowered, I just think all of them combined could be rather poweful, even to relatively new characters. It is also that I really liked them, but since Jiyva is just as likely to give you a mutation as he is to give you nothing or a good mutation (and in turn, you have to roll on which mutation you get) I see these special mutations as wasted potential.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8733

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Thursday, 19th June 2014, 04:26

Re: Jiyva mutations should be permanent

Leader_Phoenix wrote:Jiyva is not so much about chaos as he is about slimes and consumption
Jiyva is explicitly a chaotic god.

Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Thursday, 19th June 2014, 04:57

Re: Jiyva mutations should be permanent

http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commit;h=9a36eb589b74d9cb2f2b5f8f1c254ca98840e758
  Code:
Make Jiyva less likely to remove slime mutations

From my last time playing with Jiyva, seemed noticeable - you always have a bunch of green muts, though the set shifts around.

Dungeon Dilettante

Posts: 2

Joined: Thursday, 19th June 2014, 02:14

Post Thursday, 19th June 2014, 06:07

Re: Jiyva mutations should be permanent

duvessa wrote:
Leader_Phoenix wrote:Jiyva is not so much about chaos as he is about slimes and consumption
Jiyva is explicitly a chaotic god.

Sure, but he is something besides "raw chaos". That is Xom's domain, while Jiyva's is entropy. In my games however the two behave pretty much as the same in regards to mutations - except Jiyva has a large choice in regards to the mutations he can use.
Sar wrote:http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commit;h=9a36eb589b74d9cb2f2b5f8f1c254ca98840e758
  Code:
Make Jiyva less likely to remove slime mutations

From my last time playing with Jiyva, seemed noticeable - you always have a bunch of green muts, though the set shifts around.
Of course. But from what I am talking about is... Well, as I told duvessa. Maybe it is just that the random number generator hates me - but in my games Jiyva's mutation gift/removal is just as likely to give me a mutation as to remove it, and most often this prevents me from making a strategy out of it. Making the "slime" mutations permanent would things less to chance and more to planning.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5303

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Thursday, 19th June 2014, 18:09

Re: Jiyva mutations should be permanent

Minor detail: but I believe Lugonu is the chaos god, Xom is simply "do whatever the hell I feel like I'm insane also cats" which is chaotic, but not chaos.

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