Minor Auto-targeting Fix Request: Conjure Flame


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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Friday, 13th June 2014, 04:47

Minor Auto-targeting Fix Request: Conjure Flame

The Conjure Flame spell auto-targets on creatures, when it cannot be placed on a creature, and the game will be the first to tell you if you try it. Instead of auto-targeting creatures, can Conure Flame be made to target what is not a creature, wall, or cloud? Apportation auto-targets items, so let Conjure Flame auto-target the nearest space that will not fail its own prerequisites test.

Makes sense to me.

Thanks for watching.

[Edit: expanded title]

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 13th June 2014, 05:07

Re: Minor Auto-targeting Fix Request: Conjure Flame

My sentiments from this thread are unchanged:
minmay wrote:Have you tried using LRD in 0.12? It's awful. The targeter tries to pick a wall that's next to a monster, and it's not very predictable. So every time you cast the spell, you have to look at where the automatic targeter decided to put it, then move it over to where you actually wanted it. The need to wait for additional input before you can actually pick your target makes using the spell take several times as long compared to the old targeting, where it picked the closest monster - you nearly always knew which location it would pick, and could move the cursor where you wanted it without having to look first. Usually, there was no need to wait for additional input at all - you didn't need any redraws at all between pressing z and the next turn, because you knew where the cursor would start without even having to think.

LRD automatically targeting walls was the worst interface change the game has ever had that I can remember. I'm astonished people want to see more of it. I can only guess that none of the people involved actually use these spells in practice. Avoiding deep water/lava with ranged combat would be okay (as long as it didn't end up targeting a different monster than expected), but anything fancier is going to double the real-time it takes to win an archer.

In most cases, you instantly know what square the "closest monster" targeter will pick, you don't actually have to look. Which means you can press the keys to retarget it without looking. So unless you are unable to tell at a glance which monster is closest (and I find that quite hard to believe), automatically targeting monsters for spells like LRD and conjure flame only requires a few extra keypresses which you don't actually have to think about. In both of these cases, it's usually just one or two keypresses, too.
By contrast, the "improved" targeting that LRD currently has is much more difficult to predict and often requires more keypresses. I would not want the same thing for conjure flame. Or anything else in the game.

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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Friday, 13th June 2014, 06:45

Re: Minor Auto-targeting Fix Request: Conjure Flame

Well, then it should only target the self initially, then. But I am only suggesting that the initial auto-target be placed adjacent to the character upon a square that is not a creature, wall or cloud. I am not suggesting any attempt at elegant AI. It just makes no sense to me that it automatically targets something that it can't be placed upon.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 13th June 2014, 07:01

Re: Minor Auto-targeting Fix Request: Conjure Flame

Always-target-self is actually an improvement over the LRD targeter.

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duvessa

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Friday, 13th June 2014, 07:25

Re: Minor Auto-targeting Fix Request: Conjure Flame

Aule wrote:It just makes no sense to me that it automatically targets something that it can't be placed upon.

The idea behind it is that you usually want to place the flame next to a monster. If it appears on the nearest monster it's usually 1 extra keypress. Like duvessa said, making that 1 extra keypress takes very little time because usually you know exactly where the target will appear. If the target appeared on self, it's a little bit worse because it would need to be moved more times on average (because often you're not placing a flame next to yourself). The target appearing next to a monster is pretty bad because you don't know exactly where it will appear, and it takes more time to confirm that it's in the right place than to make the extra keypress had it appeared on the monster.

And yeah please improve LRD targeting.

Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Friday, 13th June 2014, 08:58

Re: Minor Auto-targeting Fix Request: Conjure Flame

My tactics are probably horrible, but I always place the flame cloud next to myself first. If it fails, I have another chance to place it there. By the time I can cast conjure flame reliably enough to cast it beside a monster, I can cast fireball and just kill that monster at range.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 13th June 2014, 13:17

Re: Minor Auto-targeting Fix Request: Conjure Flame

jejorda2 wrote:My tactics are probably horrible, but I always place the flame cloud next to myself first. If it fails, I have another chance to place it there. By the time I can cast conjure flame reliably enough to cast it beside a monster, I can cast fireball and just kill that monster at range.


If you are talking about corridor, place it near monster. Some monsters are stupid enough to move into the flame so you can put another flame next turn and monster will step into it again. It works with hydra, for example.
If you get a miscast, you still can put the flame at another tile (it does not matter where you were trying to place flame if you got a miscast anyway, right?) so there is no disadvantage in the strategy.

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Friday, 13th June 2014, 16:55

Re: Minor Auto-targeting Fix Request: Conjure Flame

Not only do they have a chance of stepping into the flame, but casting Mephitic Cloud can also confuse them and increase that chance. You can't place a flame on a cloud, but you can cast the cloud over flame.

Also, in regards to the OP, I have changed my mind and now agree that targeting a creature is probably the best inference that can be made reliably.

Dungeon Master

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Post Friday, 13th June 2014, 17:33

Re: Minor Auto-targeting Fix Request: Conjure Flame

When monsters are weak or at low hp, they may not voluntarily walk into damaging clouds unless they're already inside a dangerous cloud. As such, after convincing a yak to walk through clouds for a couple turns, if that yak leaves the clouds, they may choose not to re-enter a new one. However, mephitic cloud counts as a dangerous cloud, so casting a mephitic cloud on a damaged monster can convince it to walk back into flame clouds, even if the mephitic cloud fails to confuse the monster.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 13th June 2014, 18:04

Re: Minor Auto-targeting Fix Request: Conjure Flame

Aule wrote:Not only do they have a chance of stepping into the flame, but casting Mephitic Cloud can also confuse them and increase that chance. You can't place a flame on a cloud, but you can cast the cloud over flame.


Or cast Ignite Poison.
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