Please, sir, I want a pre-expiration warning for Stoneskin

[tedric]

Is there a reason not to have one? I can't imagine one, especially when similar spells like Ozo's do.

I do have "force_more_message += Your skin feels tender" in my rcfile but that's not a complete solution and is unfriendly to newbies and the less technically-minded.

Imaginary hugs/trophies/cupcakes of gratitude in advance.

[TheArcanist]

I'm sorry to hijack the thread like this, but this sort of issue is exactly why I think the buff spells in general need a serious rework. Once you have it at below 10% miscast and no hunger, there's no reason to not have Repel Missiles/Stoneskin/Ect. up all the time - the only barrier is their relatively trivial mana cost and the time it takes to stop and reapply them while travelling. It's optimal, but tedious and uninteresting - exactly the sort of thing Crawl's design philosophy is supposedly against.

The change to Repel/Deflect Missiles is a huge step in the right direction, but I'm not sure if it was the correct way to handle this particular design problem - we need to really ask ourselves if charms/buffs need or deserve this treatment at all. In essence, it just turns these spells into slotless items, and I'm not convinced that's a very interesting choice design-wise.

[Kismet]

What if stoneskin was removed, and training earth magic gave you an ac bonus? This would be a good idea because it's cool that your affinity for rocks makes your very skin rockier.

[Klown]

+1 inconsistencies like this are just weird. ozo tells you, stone doesn't. TSO says 'omg don't do that', Dithmenos watches with a grin as you activate that wand of fireball, then summons hellshadows against you the moment after.

I'm sorry to hijack the thread like this, but this sort of issue is exactly why I think the buff spells in general need a serious rework. Once you have it at below 10% miscast and no hunger, there's no reason to not have Repel Missiles/Stoneskin/Ect. up all the time - the only barrier is their relatively trivial mana cost and the time it takes to stop and reapply them while travelling. It's optimal, but tedious and uninteresting - exactly the sort of thing Crawl's design philosophy is supposedly against.

The change to Repel/Deflect Missiles is a huge step in the right direction, but I'm not sure if it was the correct way to handle this particular design problem - we need to really ask ourselves if charms/buffs need or deserve this treatment at all. In essence, it just turns these spells into slotless items, and I'm not convinced that's a very interesting choice design-wise.

How could they actually be reworked to avoid this issue?
Seems like it would be un-fixable unless a significant change occurred, things like...
Making them passive 'always-on' like Te/Ga flying, but that would require some odd 'drawback' like MP rot (28 MP now 26 until you turn off that level 2 spell).
or
Removing Charms, which is probably unthinkable to many.

[Sandman25]

I have
runrest_stop_message += Your skin feels tender
force_more_message += your skin feels tender
The former helps with autoexplore and autotravel.

[tedric]

I'm sorry to hijack the thread like this

I suppose I'll forgive you as long as someone fixes the issue in my OP. Reworking the buffs is fine and dandy, but in the meantime this is just a stupid interface screw.

I have
runrest_stop_message += Your skin feels tender
force_more_message += your skin feels tender
The former helps with autoexplore and autotravel.

I forgot I could have it interrupt autotravel too! Sweet.

What if stoneskin was removed, and training earth magic gave you an ac bonus? This would be a good idea because it's cool that your affinity for rocks makes your very skin rockier.

Actually that's kind of a neat idea, and it could be applied to all the spell schools to replace many buffs.

Earth = AC
Air = rMsl/dMsl
Poison = lower damage from poison, maybe up to the full benefits of rPois at high skill level
Necro = HP regen
Ice = more AC, but meltable
Fire = ???
etc.

[crate]

imo make hexes skill give MR but only if you're wielding spear of the botono

[TheArcanist]

Honestly, I think the only real, long-term solution to this problem is to just chuck out the entire Charms school. As much as I enjoy their spells from a min-maxing player's standpoint, there are only two that come even close to being an interesting strategic or tactical choice - Haste and Regeneration - and that's because Haste has the contamination drawback while Regeneration does literally nothing unless you're injured, and thus there's no point to keeping it up when you're autoexploring/in transit between floors. The rest are just buffs you throw on for no tangible downside except enduring having to stop every time that -More- alert pops up - useful, but hardly what I'd call fun.

Many of the effects the Charms school gives, however, fill useful design niches, so I'd compensate for their loss by adding their effects back into the game by adding 'charms evokers'. These would function like the elemental evokers in that they'd hold one charge of their respective spell at any one time, with power determined by evocations, and would require XP gain to recharge. It may be necessary to strongly buff some of these effects to make them worth the inventory space/evocations XP/whatever else. The benefit of this is threefold: first, it would solve the problem of spam and tedium by tying the effect to a single-charge evoker, second, it would provide interesting tactical choices through that limited resource scope, and third, it would have parity with an evocations system already in place, thus largely removing the necessity to explain the difference to current and new players how this new system works.

[Leafsnail]

Honestly, I think the only real, long-term solution to this problem is to just chuck out the entire Charms school. As much as I enjoy their spells from a min-maxing player's standpoint, there are only two that come even close to being an interesting strategic or tactical choice - Haste and Regeneration - and that's because Haste has the contamination drawback while Regeneration does literally nothing unless you're injured, and thus there's no point to keeping it up when you're autoexploring/in transit between floors. The rest are just buffs you throw on for no tangible downside except enduring having to stop every time that -More- alert pops up - useful, but hardly what I'd call fun.

What about new Swiftness and Death's Door?

I think the Repel Missiles model would work assuming one of the suggestions for preventing use of it at very low spell success/armour switching is implemented.

[damiac]

I think haste would be a lot more interesting if instead of a timeout function like it has with contam, it had something like the post berserk drawbacks. So casting haste isn't just a question of "Do I want to be 33% better now, or will I need to be 33% better shortly in the future?"

I'd prefer if haste instead gave you a weakened status after it was over, reducing your effectiveness by 33% (or more), and preventing haste, but not applying slow, because that's already berserk's deal, and we don't really want to nerf a level 6 spell into uselessness. Then haste becomes an actual tactical choice, can I haste up and take care of this situation, or will it run out and leave me weak in a bad situation?

[Sjohara]

How could they actually be reworked to avoid this issue?
Seems like it would be un-fixable unless a significant change occurred, things like...
Making them passive 'always-on' like Te/Ga flying, but that would require some odd 'drawback' like MP rot (28 MP now 26 until you turn off that level 2 spell).
or
Removing Charms, which is probably unthinkable to many.

It wouldn't be that hard to reform Stoneskin/Ozocubu's Armor/Condensation Shield/Phase Shift/whatever to work somewhat similarly to Repel Missiles. Chance to expire after every hit taken/avoided, expires only after X total damage is mitigated, duration doesn't tick down if there are no monsters in sight, duration doesn't start ticking down until you're attacked for the first time since casting, etc. For the not-purely-chance-based options, you could even have the spell automatically refresh at sufficiently low tension if you wanted to get really fancy (manually recasting once after each battle isn't that big of a deal, though).

[DracheReborn]

Many of the effects the Charms school gives, however, fill useful design niches, so I'd compensate for their loss by adding their effects back into the game by adding 'charms evokers'. These would function like the elemental evokers in that they'd hold one charge of their respective spell at any one time, with power determined by evocations, and would require XP gain to recharge. It may be necessary to strongly buff some of these effects to make them worth the inventory space/evocations XP/whatever else. The benefit of this is threefold: first, it would solve the problem of spam and tedium by tying the effect to a single-charge evoker, second, it would provide interesting tactical choices through that limited resource scope, and third, it would have parity with an evocations system already in place, thus largely removing the necessity to explain the difference to current and new players how this new system works.

My own preferred idea is to turn Charms into item egos, esp. amulet and aux armour. They'd be always on but limited by available slots. Amulet of Air would be an example of how this would work.

[johlstei]

I would love it if stoneskin were a permanent toggle until a better way to reform is thought of. Right now it is effectively permanent if you are patient enough to recast it all the time(I am and I hate it). Can we acknowledge that and let the interface be fixed prior to addressing concerns? We ought not to let great be the enemy of good.

If the armour swap thing is considered a big deal, maybe make it go away when you take off your armour? I think it's not a huge problem because the AC bonus means you probably will get more earth magic anyway.

[tasonir]

I hope this isn't considered offtopic, but can anyone explain to me why if statue form expires, it automatically cancels stoneskin regardless of the duration of stoneskin? It's just rubbing it in your face that you have to cast much more, and could even be significantly dangerous if you let statue form expire mid-battle.

#MakeFormsPermenant

[Velikolepni]

The change to Repel/Deflect Missiles is a huge step in the right direction, but I'm not sure if it was the correct way to handle this particular design problem - we need to really ask ourselves if charms/buffs need or deserve this treatment at all. In essence, it just turns these spells into slotless items, and I'm not convinced that's a very interesting choice design-wise.

Well, they are not fully slotless, since one pays for them with spell slots and xp.

[TheArcanist]

The change to Repel/Deflect Missiles is a huge step in the right direction, but I'm not sure if it was the correct way to handle this particular design problem - we need to really ask ourselves if charms/buffs need or deserve this treatment at all. In essence, it just turns these spells into slotless items, and I'm not convinced that's a very interesting choice design-wise.

Well, they are not fully slotless, since one pays for them with spell slots and xp.

Well, let's consider the opportunity cost of learning these spells. Yes, spell levels, and yes, some meager amount of XP, but if your build is primarily focused on killing dudes without magic you aren't using the slots for anything else, and thus it isn't a very interesting choice - the answer is obvious, of course you should take them. If your build is focused on killing dudes with magic, you're probably worshipping Sif or Vehumet, in which case you have a way to easily handle spell slots(Sif) or you have a glut of free XP to play with(Vehumet). Again, in a practical sense, the 'choice' is a no-brainer.

This is my issue with the Repel/Deflect Missiles treatment - while it solves the tedium problem, it does nothing to make the spells any more interesting as tactical or strategic choices.

[Leafsnail]

If learning the spells is a no-brainer then that just suggests to me that their levels should be raised, to make the XP cost non-trivial.

[Hurkyl]

Again, in a practical sense, the 'choice' is a no-brainer.

But not really all that different from how, say, training Armour to get a "free" increase in AC is a 'no-brainer'.

This is my issue with the Repel/Deflect Missiles treatment - while it solves the tedium problem, it does nothing to make the spells any more interesting as tactical or strategic choices.

I understand the desire for the game to have exciting and interesting decisions -- but paying for a useful effect in player boredom is not such a thing.

Making this improvement of eliminating the tedium does not preclude the possibility of an even better change in the future.

[Bim]

The only way I see this working is permanent buffs - it's the single most needed thing for DCSS. Everyone moans about all the other 'tedious' aspects, but having to continually do z-b, z-d every 20 turns is much, much more annoying.