Acidic Dissolution Expansion


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Post Sunday, 25th May 2014, 00:40

Acidic Dissolution Expansion

I spent some time thinking about -of the ideas I've posted if I actually coded one in myself, what would it be. This post is that idea. It also expands on the whole distance I would go if I was making an expansion and might be larger than any other single addition to the game; save one of the more complex gods. As such; this might be the longest post in forum history.

A little bit about how things currently are:
Acid damage is split into two halves. Those are "Acid Impact" and "Acid Splash". Acid Impact is resisted by rCorr and AC; while acid splash is resisted by rCorr and the number of equipment slots you have filled (most notably cloaks, which block more than half the damage) and Level 3 of the Fur Mutation, while ignoring AC completely. Player acid is a rare effect, randomly coming from the rod of clouds and Makhleb invocations. More solidly appearing with Acidic Bite (Jiyva) and Oklob Plants (Fedhas). All enemy acid attacks are limited to acid branded melee, acidic flesh (retaliatory hit, similar to Minotaur headbutt; higher chance of corroding weapons than any other acid source) and Acid Spit (Bolt spell used by Acid Blobs, Oklobs and Yellow Draconians.) Though multiple ticks of rAcid are implemented; monster is currently completely irrelevant (any + is completely immune and only Yellow Draconians, Oklobs and the J genus have the intrinsic (+, +++ and +++ respectively)) and player is seldom used rCorr provides one tick, Yellow draconian-ness also adds a tick, those ticks stack well, but the portion of players that would have both is tiny.

Changes Summary:
  • Both enemy and player rAcid become more used.
  • Enemy Acid attacks become more common outside of Slime.
  • Player acid attacks become more common.

Full Text:

New Base:
  • Acid Impact and Acid Splash remain two separate hits.
  • Acid Splash no longer ignores AC. This made Acid Bolts (Oklob's and Acid Blobs) far too similar to hellfire, in having a 3d9 portion that completely ignored AC.
  • Additionally the peculiarity of being blocked by how many pieces of equipment you are wearing will be removed. Mostly because it was opaque and never realized by most players and it made it so Octopodes and Ogres were permanently somewhat weak to Acid Splash not because it was a horrible system.
  • In short, it's simplified to two hits; which check AC separately and have a chance to corrode, separately.

Player Resistance:

  • rAcid - (any number of ticks): 150% Damage [Gargoyle start with rAcid-, Statue Form and Lich Form apply rAcid- temporarily.]
  • rAcid (0): 100% Damage, default for most races.
  • rAcid + : 70% Damage (Yellow Draconians)
  • rAcid ++ : 45% Damage
  • rAcid +++: 20% Damage

Enemy Resistance:

  • rAcid-- [takes 150% damage]: Creatures made of metal or stones; Golems, Gargoyles, etc.
  • rAcid- [takes 125% damage]: Creatures made of exposed bone; Liches, Curse Skulls, Skeletons, etc.
  • rAcid (0) [takes 100% damage]: Most natural creatures. (Hydras, Nagas, Spiny Frogs, non-Yellow Draconians etc.) Zombies.
  • rAcid+ [takes 75% damage]: Most Demons (Including fiends)*. Insects (Spiders, Scorpions, Fire Crabs, etc.)
  • rAcid++ [takes 50% damage]: Yellow Draconians; Slimes; Creatures made of Ice (Simulacra, Ice Statues, etc.)
  • rAcid+++ [immune]: Creatures made of Crystal (Crystal Guardians, Wretched Stars, etc.); Insubstantial creatures (Wisps, Revenants, etc.)**; Jellies; Oklobs and other Acidic Creatures.
*Demon Exceptions: Iron Imp (-), Iron Devil (-), Hell Sentinel (0) and Reaper (0).
**Exception: Orbs of Fire only have rAcid+.

Enemy Corrosion:
On acid attacks hitting enemies; there is a chance to corrode the target's BASE ac. That is, the initial defense they spawn in with. This effect is permanent (like HD draining) and is most notable, when using a fast acid-coated weapon to decrease a powerful enemies' defenses in a hurry. Acid impact and acid splash have separate chances to corrode; impact always tries to corrode base AC; splash will corrode base on armourless enemies, but try to corrode the equipment of those using equips. Any successful corrosion to the base drops the AC value by 1d3. Corrosion chance is based on enemy's current AC (more AC, higher chance); HD (more HD, lower chance); and rAcid (higher chance for those weak to acid).

Player Corrosion:
Equipment corrosion is still a permanent; but the chances of it occurring are changed. Additionally, you may receive a (temporary) corroded debuff to your base AC (this is always a -3 on players). You are protected from ever having the debuff by a source of rCorr and protected by your equipment (which will corrode instead); but chance is never 0 without the rCorr intrinsic. Notably, however; where currently anything enchanted to +5 or higher becomes corrosion immune, making it completely non-noticeable to most games, the system is instead changed so that items become more likely to corrode the nicer they are. [Items will still not corrode past -5; new corrosion equation is: (Base Corrosion Chance) x (5+Enchantment Level)/14 x rCorr factor x Special Factors]
  • rCorr factor is 1 without the intrinsic and .15 with the intrinsic.
  • Corrosion resistant and Acid Coated items always receive .15.
  • Blessed weapons additionally receive a .5 without the intrinsic and a .1 with it.
  • Special factors include Ozo's Armour, which grants your body armour 0.5x.
  • The Shining One's divine shield gives your shield 0.2x
  • Zin's Vitalization gives a 0.2x for everything.

New Item Intrinsics:

  • Corrosion Resistant. Ego. Provides one level of Acid resistance. Protects itself from corrosion; but no other items. Available on all body armour except hats. Similar drop rate to rF+ and rC+. Corrosion Resistant items will not be eaten off the floor by J's.
  • Acid-Coated. Brand. +15% Acid Impact to initial hit; 2d9 Splash damage after the hit. Protects itself from corrosion; but no other items. Acid-Coated Weapons will not be eaten off the floor by J's.
  • Additionally rAcid+, rAcid++ and rAcid- will be added to the randArt trait pool. With rAcid- items being commonly cursed.

New Spells:
For now; I'm talking about only one player acid spell; but I will spell out the items that make the spellschool unique as if it grew to be a more common effect.

Acid Spell School Common Traits:
  • Acid spells cannot be aimed near the user. That is instead of a circle around the user; acid conjuration targeting looks like a donut.
  • Acid spells produce temporary acid pools.
  • Acid spells do relatively low direct damage, but try to strip away the targets defenses wholesale; doing the bulk of their special damage to AC; through other spells may remove other defenses.
  • For now Acid spells are high level Poison spells; but I am also open to it being part of the transmutation school.
  • Acid conjurations always have an 'impact' and a 'splash' portion to their damage.

Bolt of Vitriol - Player Version - (Conjurations/Poison - 7)
  • 2d(6+Spellpower/8): Impact
  • 3d(2 + Spellpower/ 20): Splash
  • Range 5-3. [At 100 spellpower it can only be aimed 5 spaces away and no closer; by 150 it expands in ward to a 3-5 space donut shape.]
  • Single Target/AoE.
  • Effect Hits a single target. (Cannot be a .) with impact and splash portions of the damage. 4-6 spaces around the original target receive splash damage. If a (.) receives a splash or any target hit dies an acid pool is spawned (always); otherwise a 25% chance of spawning a pool. If a wall is hit, it's temporarily turned into a slime wall. Always lowers the AC of targets hit, by Spellpoer/10%; with additional chances for normal corrosion.

Bolt of Vitriol - Enemy Version - (Conjurations/Poison - 7)
    2d(4+HD): Impact
  • 3d(2 + HD/4): Splash
  • Range: 3-6.
  • Single Target.
  • Effect: Hits the player (or allied target) for both halves of the damage. All adjacent spaces take splash damage. 50% chance to spawn an acid pool on all spaces hit with a creature in them. 100% chance to spawn a pool on the ground. Never spawns a pool under the player, when the player is the primary target. Allies get chance to get temporarily corroded based on their HD vs the enemies.

Throw Acid - Enemy-only Spell - [Serves as a weaker 'B.Vitriol'] (Conjurations/Poison -3)
  • 2d(2+HD/2): Impact
  • 1d(2 + HD/2): Splash
  • Range: 4-8.
  • Single Target.
  • Effect: Hits the player (or allied target) for both halves of the damage. 5 random adjacent squares take splash damage. 25% chance to spawn an acid pool on all spaces hit with a creature in them. 100% chance to spawn a pool on the ground. Never spawns a pool under the player, when the player is the primary target.

Acid Rain - Enemy-only Spell - (Conjurations/Poison/Air - 6)
  • AoE/Cloud
  • Spawns rain clouds which create Acid Pools after 5-20 aut. Used with similar AI to the Freezing Cloud spell on higher-leveled mages.

New Terrain Feature:

Acid Pool:
  • For now, I'm not recommending placing this in the general spawning for anywhere; except, perhaps vaults (not the branch).
  • Spawned by acid spells, with a duration, variable with spellpower. Say 35-100 aut.
  • Acid pools have similar effects to shallow water; though the effects are more severe (even slower and higher fumble chance).
  • They may corrode enemy's base AC every turn.
  • Players in them may suffer the corrosion debuff.
  • Direct damage from Acid Pools is negated by any level of rAcid; and is only d9 (for player and enemy).
  • Acid pools do not corrode equipment.
  • Animal intelligence and higher creatures without rAcid+ will avoid it with similar disdain to Poison Clouds.
  • Those with rAcid avoid it with similar disdain to Mephritic Clouds.
  • Flying creatures and players can avoid all effects.
  • Swimming creatures do not avoid anything.
  • Does not trigger Merfolk to change.

New Enemies:

Caustic Dragons (D) will appear in Vaults, Depths and Zot. Similar spawn frequency to Storm Dragons. For now, they do not have a hide drop; if/when they do the armour stats would be {11AC, 22ER, 90 aum, rCorr}.
  Code:
caustic dragon (D) | Spd: 12 | HD: 16 | HP: 99-141 | AC/EV: 15/11 | Dam: 25 (acid), 15(trample) | fly, !sil | Res: magic(106), fire, cold, acid+++, drown | XP: ~5864 | Sp: b.vitriol (2d20+3d6) | Sz: Huge | Int: animal.


Trench Ants and all their subspecies will have an encompass vault, with a high chance of appearing in Spider or Depths. The stronger variants will also appear roaming in both those areas, as well as the Vaults. Bands, lead by a queen may appear in the depths. Full List by HD.

Scout ants are fast, but fragile and also somewhat non-aggressive. They are batty; they try to get sentinel's mark on you and they self-enchant with fear if they drop below 50% HP.
  Code:
trench ant scout (a) | Spd: 24 | HD: 11 | HP: 26-40 | AC/EV: 3/14 | Dam: 4 (poison:24-48) | !sil, sense invisible | Res: magic(48), acid+ | Vul: poison | Sp: Sentinel's Mark | XP: 862 | Sz: small | Int: insect.

Basic Trench Ant is a little slower than you, but burrows like a boring beetle making it difficult to 'just run' from.
  Code:
trench ant (a) | Spd: 9 | HD: 12 | HP: 46-82 | AC/EV: 6/12 | Dam: 16 (poison:24-48), 4 (acid) | !sil, sense invisible | Res: magic(48), acid++ | Vul: poison | XP: 862 | Sz: small | Int: insect.
Death Ants are a subspecies of superior intellect (for an ant); trained to defend the colony from other insects. They are usually found away from the bulk of the ants, due to their ability to completely wipe them out in minutes.
  Code:
death ant (a) | Spd: 10 | HD: 15 | HP: 61-102 | AC/EV: 15/4 | Dam: 18 (strong poison:55-93) | !sil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(120), acid++, poison, neg+++ | XP: 2174 | Sp: poisonous cloud (3d10), corpse rot, acid rain | Sz: Large| Int: animal.
Fire ants are fast creature that likes to spam fireball. Any questions?
  Code:
fire ant (a) | Spd: 13 | HD: 16 | HP: 96-144 | AC/EV: 20/5 | Dam: 20 (fire:24-39) | !sil, spellcaster, sense invisible | Res: magic(88), fire+++, acid+ | Vul: poison | Chunks: poison | XP: 2337 | Sp: fireball (3d26) | Sz: Large | Int: insect.
The trench ant equivalent of soldiers. As hard-hitting and difficult to flee from as Acid Blobs.
  Code:
trench ant overseer (a) | Spd: 12 | HD: 17 | HP: 85-126 | AC/EV: 10/12 | Dam: 20(poison:38-76), 8 (acid) | !sil, sense invisible | Res: magic(76), acid+++ | Vul: poison | Chunks: poison | XP: 1600 | Sp: throw acid (2d10 + 1d11) | Sz: Medium | Int: insect
The queen. One placed by vaults. Also one placed when bands appear in the depths. Able to dig like her basic workers. Her summon creates more basic workers, but none of the special types.
  Code:
trench ant queen (a) | Spd: 9 | HD: 21 | HP: 94-135 | AC/EV: 18/6 | Dam: 40(strong poison:77-136), 12 (acid) | fly, !sil, doors, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: magic(140), acid+++ | Vul: poison | Chunks: poison | XP: ~4827 | Sp: sum.Ants, haste other, heal other (2d10), b.vitriol (2d25 + 3d7) | Sz: Large | Int: insect


Caustic Destroyers can spawn in the vestibule and throughout hell, but are more common in the Abyss and Pan (especially Mnoleg's Domain). They are the powerful acidic demons, which hound you throughout extended. Note: I considered changing Cacodemons to have b.Vitriol instead of b.Energy before introducing this; but I thought that making the worst mutagenic threat an acid threat, as well, might be too cruel. It's still a very similar demon, though it is faster and more fragile...and tries to trample you into acid pits.
  Code:
Caustic Destroyer (2) | Spd: 13 | HD: 14 | HP: 68-105 | AC/EV: 13/7 | Dam: 40 (acid), 8 (Trample) | demonic, doors, see invisible, lev, regen, eats items, !sil | Res: magic(168), fire, cold, poison, rot, acid+++, neg+++, torm | Vul: holy++, silver | XP: 2395 | Sp: b.vitriol (2d18 + 3d5), Acid Rain, confuse, blink | Sz: Large | Int: high.


Changes to Things Already in the Game:

  • Enchant {foo} Scrolls no longer have a failure chance. As keeping things at high levels is now balanced against corrosion, instead of against randomly failing scrolls.
  • Holy Wrath weapons protect themselves from corrosion, somewhat.
  • Ozocubu's Armour Spell and god powers can partially protect against corrosion.
  • Currently Slime-Pit-Exclusive enemies are brought into the depths and vaults in higher numbers. If this is too much of a Jiyva boost; his neutrality on random slimes may have a chance of failing outside of Slime.
  • Death Ooze switches to having both rot and corrosion portions to its attacks and will be found in the Crypt, with similar spawn frequency to Ghouls.
  • More powerful wizard enemies will have acid spells added to their possible spell pools. (Ogre Mage, Tengu Reaver, Lich, Wizard, Ancient Lich, Deep Elf Conjurer and Deep Elf Annihilator will be affected).
  • Summon Mushrooms (Curse Toe's Signature Spell) may call Death Ooze as well. Elevating their threat level significantly.
  • Oklob Saplings will make a return to the early dungeon.

There is probably something I didn't think of; but...there's the bulk of it. Thanks for reading.
Last edited by bcadren on Sunday, 25th May 2014, 02:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Sunday, 25th May 2014, 00:47

Re: Acidic Dissolution Expansion

bcarden wrote:Equipment corrosion is still a permanent

In current trunk acid damage gives you a temporary debuff to AC and permanent corrosion does not exist.
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Post Sunday, 25th May 2014, 01:14

Re: Acidic Dissolution Expansion

no thanks
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Post Sunday, 25th May 2014, 02:12

Re: Acidic Dissolution Expansion

bcadren wrote:I spent some time thinking about -of the ideas I've posted if I actually coded one in myself, what would it be.


Are you quite sure you've pinpointed about how much effort adding all these changes would be?
take it easy
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Post Sunday, 25th May 2014, 02:56

Re: Acidic Dissolution Expansion

Arrhythmia wrote:Are you quite sure you've pinpointed about how much effort adding all these changes would be?
If I had to take a stab. If I already knew my way around the code; 80-100 hours (about a week); then debug time for unexpected interactions. Since I don't; triple it 240-300 hours (three weeks)?
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}

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Post Sunday, 25th May 2014, 06:53

Re: Acidic Dissolution Expansion

I don't know anyone who spends 80-100 hours a week working on an open source game in their spare time.
Spoiler: show
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Post Sunday, 25th May 2014, 07:20

Re: Acidic Dissolution Expansion

Siegurt wrote:I don't know anyone who spends 80-100 hours a week working on an open source game in their spare time.
Given my post rate; how long do you think I spend now? Also; it woudln't be the first time; I've made games in a weekend before, with 60 or 48 hour deadlines to do everything for it.
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}
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Post Sunday, 25th May 2014, 12:47

Re: Acidic Dissolution Expansion

bcadren wrote:I've made games in a weekend before, with 60 or 48 hour deadlines to do everything for it.
Show us.

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Post Sunday, 25th May 2014, 14:05

Re: Acidic Dissolution Expansion

seattle washington. friends for life. mods hate on me and devs ignore my posts. creater of exoelfs and dc:pt

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Post Sunday, 25th May 2014, 14:23

Re: Acidic Dissolution Expansion

yep those are eight new monsters, fours spells, a revamp to a newly revamped mechanic, an overcomplication of an already overcomplicated damage type and a two new item brands all in the same suggestion alright.
yep.

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Post Sunday, 25th May 2014, 15:33

Re: Acidic Dissolution Expansion

Please keep in mind that this thread is in GDD, at least for the moment.

bcadren: There's a lot of stuff in the OP about how you would do things, but little as to why this would be worthwhile or what you think this would add. (All I got was "rAcid +(++) is implemented but not noteworthy or important" and "player acid is a rare effect," but why these are problems and how that long list of changes would help matters remain opaque.) This makes it difficult to give good feedback because it is hard to know what improvement you hope to effect with these additions and changes. Please expand a bit on why these changes would be good.

Anyway, for the time being I'd just say, if you want to actually code something, just start off by trying to make a new rod ("rod of vitriol" or whatnot) that shoots acid bolts, with damage and chance for/size of acid pools created by the acid bolt scaling up with evocations. Maybe instead of minus AC or armor damage (which would not affect, or not notably affect, a lot of enemies), just have the acid give a temporary "damage sensitivity" status that basically worked like reverse damage shaving, with resistance to this status based on HD vs. strength of acid bolt, as determined by evocations.

Both damage sensitivity status and the ability to create pools that nonflying dudes would not want to cross (or would cross, but take damage per turn doing so) could be cool on a rod.

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Post Sunday, 25th May 2014, 16:50

Re: Acidic Dissolution Expansion

bcadren wrote:Notably, however; where currently anything enchanted to +5 or higher becomes corrosion immune, making it completely non-noticeable to most games, the system is instead changed so that items become more likely to corrode the nicer they are.

this would just be retarded.

The acid pool spell would be awesome though, but probably quite op if it has a chance to corrode every turn.
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Post Sunday, 25th May 2014, 17:19

Re: Acidic Dissolution Expansion

Not the only game I've made and it was really REALLY pushing it for something to make in 48 hours. Don't particularly like you making fun of it. Standalone is a little better and even then I left it a little buggy. Didn't really realize how buggy it was for most people at the time, because 48 hours wasn't really enough time to test it on any machine, but my own, which was really top of the line. Also -dear god- do you not realize how much physics work went into getting it to play remotely like expected? Probably, even without fixing the bugginess, it'd do better with better tutorial levels instead of just the 3 I made after I got all the mechanics and art done; hell, none of the levels actually needed the Crampon tool.

Also, why do we get so many ad hominem arguments on here? Not only is it immature, but it detracts from real discussion and is rather alienating. And is about as relevant as me saying, I don't like the President of the US, because his face is ugly.
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Post Sunday, 25th May 2014, 17:28

Re: Acidic Dissolution Expansion

people are only attacking you over irrelevant things because you brought the irrelevant things up in the first place
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Post Sunday, 25th May 2014, 18:06

Re: Acidic Dissolution Expansion

and into wrote:Anyway, for the time being I'd just say, if you want to actually code something, just start off by trying to make a new rod ("rod of vitriol" or whatnot) that shoots acid bolts, with damage and chance for/size of acid pools created by the acid bolt scaling up with evocations. Maybe instead of minus AC or armor damage (which would not affect, or not notably affect, a lot of enemies), just have the acid give a temporary "damage sensitivity" status that basically worked like reverse damage shaving, with resistance to this status based on HD vs. strength of acid bolt, as determined by evocations.

Both damage sensitivity status and the ability to create pools that nonflying dudes would not want to cross (or would cross, but take damage per turn doing so) could be cool on a rod.
Not a bad idea to start. I have to say I originally imagined the -AC effect to be a useful counter-tool against enemies with high enough AC that you either can't hit them or have a hard time hitting them with normal damage when you meet them; emperor scorpions, hell sentinels, Hell Lords, Iron Golems, etc. Though I do suppose that is a really short list of monsters and being more generally useful might be better. But the exact opposite of damage shaving would be a little overpowered...and by a little I mean -way too- as doubling all damage all sources would well...make most fights trivial.

Side Note: I've never killed an emperor scorpion without resorting to an 'ignores AC' effect, like poison or Vampiric Draining. Taken out things with more AC later, but Emperor Scorpions are HUGE for when they spawn.

Edit: Idea slowly evolved out of the common suggestion that poison should expand into acid to have some late game use and my thoughts about how acid could actually be unique AND it felt like a logical expansion that 'effect' that bypasses AC on living creatures only should grow into effect that helps you bypass anything's AC, as a support spell to help get other things through. Additionally I feel that the enemy resistance tree should be put in, because the rareness of Acid resistance leads to silliness like 'The slime wall burns your fire vortex.' and Fedhas's oklobs being essentially hellfire support that even demons don't resist at all through the hells if you know what you are doing.
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Post Sunday, 25th May 2014, 18:43

Re: Acidic Dissolution Expansion

You Must Read This Before Posting in GDD wrote:V. Clearly state in your post the reasons for your proposal.

This thread is still yet to contain any actual reasoning.

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Post Monday, 26th May 2014, 02:41

Re: Acidic Dissolution Expansion

MarvinPA wrote:This thread is still yet to contain any actual reasoning.
Actually some was already in the post, but nonetheless; here goes:
  1. Why do I want to make acid enemy threats more common in the dungeon?
    • Right now, the Amulet of Resist Corrosion is mostly useless everywhere, except Slime. Even warding has some ancillary use most the time due to it's rN+. And I feel that the item needs to have as much utility as rMut, at least, or suffer deletion for being superfluous.
  2. Why should the enemy acid resist tree be expanded?
    • Currently nothing is weak to it and VERY few things resist it, making Fedhas Oklobs essentially a Bolt of Hellfire source for lategame players; which even bypasses rHellfire. This 3d9 (could be higher on high HD oklobs and player oklob HD raises with Invo Skill) that is never altered by much of anything can be almost too powerful, even for a god ability, especially given that, if you make 4-5 oklobs in a row, they can take out anything short of Antaeus in 10 or fewer turns. Making it vary some checks when Oklobs are and aren't useful. Other current player sources of acid aren't reliable enough to be notable for this fact, however.
  3. Why do I think splash damage should revert to checking AC instead of 'number of slot you currently have equipped'?
    • Though number of slot you have equipped as a damage check CAN work, it's never explained to the unspoiled player well enough for them to realize it is happening. Furthermore it leads to the weird situation where due to acid splash doing more damage when you are less equipped, removing a -3 pair of gloves causes you to take -more- damage (from oklobs and acid blobs), which is for all intents of the word bizarre and a weird choice to put on players.
  4. What's the logic behind the damage tree setup?
    • Mostly real-world logic, though it's certainly tweakable. What I definitely don't want is weirdnesses like vortices and ghosts taking as good of damage from acid as things which would have exposed flesh though. It just feels counter-intuitive to the unspoiled player.
  5. Why are gargoyles weak by default?
    • Logic is part of it as is mirroring the enemy version; but also, Gargoyles still feel like they need a bit of a nerf.
  6. Why the special effects of being unable to aim near yourself and removing enemy resistances?
    • Unable to aim near yourself is mostly arbitrary; though it's been said on multiple occasions that the bolt spells need to be differentiated more so the b.Vitriol will use an aiming mechanic nothing else does. Additionally, however, spells that you can't aim near yourself produce different positioning problems than any other spell does which could be interesting.
    • Removing enemy resistances comes out of the fact that spellschools that aren't earth start feeling a lot weaker in Hell, because a lot of things are omniresistant. Acid is to be resisted by fewer things, not do much direct damage, but help remove resistances; so if you are a fire elementalist in an area where everything has rF++ or higher, you could use an acid spell that strips fire resistance to continue going.
    • To balance against that being too powerful of an effect; Acid spells available to the player will be high-level poison only;so a lot of investment is involved.
  7. Why the 'scrolls always work' and 'corrosion affects highly enchanted things more' part?
    • I've never liked that using scrolls to enchant things very high is balanced against a -random- chance to fail. This is one of two alternative ways I'd propose seeing them balanced.
    • The other is after a point it just always takes either two I/II's or one III to enchant further, instead of random chance to work with one scroll or waste 3-4.
  8. New monster types?
    • Needed more variety than JUST moving slime pits creatures into main dungeon more. Also, on the ants, whole -bug- thing just drops after spiders, where bees and normal ants came before. Through some depths-bug would be nice
  9. God/Spell protections?
    • Sprinkled where both logic intuitive and appropriate. These are interactions that would affect a small percentage of characters but ARE intuitive to the unspoiled, without being so powerful to change the balance of the spells/effects or so weak to be completely forgettable.
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}

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TeshiAlair

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Post Monday, 26th May 2014, 08:18

Re: Acidic Dissolution Expansion

Note that the commit https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commit/e31251231736f9371999ccadea973b450281b6e3 removes permanent item corrosion in trunk (replacing it with temporary -AC and -dmg). I hope it will stay that way.

Adding acid spells as high level Poison spells is a good idea. I think forcing Bolt of Vitriol to be targetted away from the player is somewhat artifical. Simply give it a large (it's a level 7 spell...) unpredictable splash area and almost nobody will use it on monsters next to himself, but if you really have to use it, you can.

The monster additions are interesting, especially without permanent item damage (if they deal permanent item damage, they are annoying and have to be annihilated quickly -- losing a few charges from a strong wand or a good potion is better than losing a few enchantment points from armour).

Tomb Titivator

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Post Monday, 26th May 2014, 08:59

Re: Acidic Dissolution Expansion

bcadren wrote:
MarvinPA wrote:This thread is still yet to contain any actual reasoning.
Actually some was already in the post, but nonetheless; here goes:
  1. Why do I want to make acid enemy threats more common in the dungeon?
    • Right now, the Amulet of Resist Corrosion is mostly useless everywhere, except Slime. Even warding has some ancillary use most the time due to it's rN+. And I feel that the item needs to have as much utility as rMut, at least, or suffer deletion for being superfluous.
  2. Why should the enemy acid resist tree be expanded?
    • Currently nothing is weak to it and VERY few things resist it, making Fedhas Oklobs essentially a Bolt of Hellfire source for lategame players; which even bypasses rHellfire. This 3d9 (could be higher on high HD oklobs and player oklob HD raises with Invo Skill) that is never altered by much of anything can be almost too powerful, even for a god ability, especially given that, if you make 4-5 oklobs in a row, they can take out anything short of Antaeus in 10 or fewer turns. Making it vary some checks when Oklobs are and aren't useful. Other current player sources of acid aren't reliable enough to be notable for this fact, however.


These 2 points seem to be the only ones addressing WHY you want to add a complicated new acid system. As far as I can tell, the rest of the points explain the reasoning for various mechanics, but IMO that's only relevant once we've addressed the core reason of whether a new acid system is desirable in the first place.

For point 1, if the choice is remove rCorr or make acid more prevalent, I'd much rather remove rCorr. Making acid irresistible seems perfectly fine to me as long as acid attacks are limited to a few gimmick monsters (cf. giant eyeball paralysis).

For point 2, if you really feel that Fedhas Oklobs need a nerf, then just reduce fruit generation. Though IMO Oklobs aren't too strong, precisely because they are limited by fruit.

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Arrhythmia
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Post Monday, 26th May 2014, 16:46

Re: Acidic Dissolution Expansion

bcadren wrote:Why the 'scrolls always work' and 'corrosion affects highly enchanted things more' part?
  • I've never liked that using scrolls to enchant things very high is balanced against a -random- chance to fail. This is one of two alternative ways I'd propose seeing them balanced.
  • The other is after a point it just always takes either two I/II's or one III to enchant further, instead of random chance to work with one scroll or waste 3-4.


Enchant weapon scrolls are uncommon, but there are usually enough of them that (if you keep burning them on your main weapon) you'll end up with about +7 by the endgame. Allowing them to consistently +1 your weapon would give you too much power too fast; what I see in my games is something like

+4 by end of Lair
+5 by end of mines
+6 by end of Lair branches
+7 by the end of Depths and/or Vaults.

If every single one worked, having a +9 weapon as early as Lair/Mines end would give you too much power, too fast; the times I find +10 artifact weapons lying on the ground can attest to that, as can early equipment of slaying.

It forces the player to choose a weapon to invest in; if you got to have multiple +9 weapons of whatever you wanted you'd have a little too much flexibility, maybe.

Its also not gonna be easy to balance the appearance of corrosion enemies against the chance of finding EW scrolls. Its also not quite sensible to have a +9 weapon one turn and then...a +4 weapon a few turns later. Mid-late game encounters with Trench Ant packs would be super crappy. The current rate of power gain by EW scrolls is fine, I feel.
114491 | Pan | Entered the realm of Gloorx Vloq.
114491 | Pan | Noticed Gloorx Vloq
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