Replace inner flame in AM book with pproj

[tabstorm]

Just a small suggestion. I think if any one spell should be in a book that an arcane marksman starts with, it is portal projectile. It's the most arcane marks-y spell there is in Crawl, I think. Obviously you are supposed to use inner flame on enemies and then enslave them and send them at other enemies, but I think this is a really gimmicky playstyle that (I imagine) is probably not used a ton in practice. I think it would be better to just replace Inner Flame with Portal Projectile in this book.

[wheals]

What I think I would prefer would be to make Warper a ranged start. It's in a kind of weird place as "gladiator with tloc spells, I guess?" and apport/blink/pproj in their starting book all have obvious ranged uses.

[tabstorm]

Maybe, warper is another somewhat awkward start that I don't really like playing since it has nothing going for it offensively except shroud. I guess it's good at running away from enemies, but at some point you need to get some XP from killing stuff. Characters centered on running away are no fun to me.

[TheDefiniteArticle]

Warper is my favorite background. But I won't complain if they suddenly have tomahawks instead of spitballs

a really gimmicky playstyle

So AM, basically.

[tabstorm]

Warper is my favorite background. But I won't complain if they suddenly have tomahawks instead of spitballs

a really gimmicky playstyle

So AM, basically.

Well, ideally it would be a little less gimmicky..

[spudwalt]

Mmm, I think Inner Flame works okay as an Arcane Marksman spell, since it's a thing you don't want to be standing next to when it goes off. But yeah, I kinda wish Portal Projectile was in the Arcane Marksman book; I was kinda surprised to find out it wasn't in the book when I was just starting out.

As for Warpers, they're a great background for nagas or when you want to try worshiping Cheibriados later.

[wizzzargh]

I think Enslavement is the real problem spell that doesn't really fit in AM. Inner Flame+ Portal Projectile would have more tactical decisions to make about who to target and when to set off the firebomb, whereas Inner Flame+Enslave can usually be used just as a (t)ell attack and walk away, since it's very easy to have one ally hold up multiple enemies and then detonate.

[tabstorm]

I think Enslavement is the real problem spell that doesn't really fit in AM. Inner Flame+ Portal Projectile would have more tactical decisions to make about who to target and when to set off the firebomb, whereas Inner Flame+Enslave can usually be used just as a (t)ell attack and walk away, since it's very easy to have one ally hold up multiple enemies and then detonate.

I think in practice it's very tricky/impractical to actually set up such a situation because enemies will try to close ground on you, and obviously if you inner flame them and they get next to you, you don't really want to kill them.

[Sar]

Doesn't AM book also have Fear?

[crate]

personally I'd prefer keeping the AM book a hexes book since that's what's fun

[damiac]

personally I'd prefer keeping the AM book a hexes book since that's what's fun

Personally I'd like to have AM's have a book that complements their ranged abilities, since that's what fun(for me). Fun being, you know, subjective.

Making warpers a ranged start might also make sense. AMs look like they're going to be ranged characters who use magic to help their ranged combat, but in practice they're just hexers with a ranged weapon. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's really not what I (and seemingly a lot of other people) expect out of them.

[Piginabag]

I hate both backgrounds, so I think AM and warper should just be merged so I can consolidate my disdain.

[TheDefiniteArticle]

AMs look like they're going to be ranged characters who use magic to help their ranged combat, but in practice they're just hexers with a ranged weapon.

I don't understand the difference.

[damiac]

As in, use their magic to make their ranged attacks more powerful or accurate or smite targetted or something.

Yeah, I guess any utility spell can be said to "help ranged combat" but I meant more specifically improving their ability to perform ranged attacks in some way. Temporary brands, portal projectile, some kind of slaying bonus, you know, things like that. Self buffs that aren't reliant on spellpower, vs hexes that one has to do instead of a ranged attack, and which are subject to spellpower.

[MiraclePrism]

I think Inner Flame would be a lot less awkward to use if it just semi-bypassed MR like ?immolation does, and maybe had a long duration also like ?immo. Currently, you may need multiple casts of IF to get past the MR check, and then you still need to kill the monster before it gets into melee range of you. There's rarely enough turns to do this, leading to the awkward behaviour where you dance around to put space between the two of you. Casting Slow or Enslavement makes it easier to avoid killing yourself, but then you need to pass two MR checks, possibly spending all your MP, for an effect approximated by a single fireball!

Maybe without the MR check, IF would actually see use by FEs too and not just AMs. It's not encroaching much on ?immo territory either, since "scroll of mass inner flame" is still a useful tool.

[MiraclePrism]

What I think I would prefer would be to make Warper a ranged start. It's in a kind of weird place as "gladiator with tloc spells, I guess?" and apport/blink/pproj in their starting book all have obvious ranged uses.

Warper as a ranged start makes so much sense that I don't know how it hasn't already happened. PProj in particular is almost useless without a ranged weapon. I guess you can corpseslap stuff with it?

I think turning Warper into a ranged start would also complement the other warrior-mages nicely, like so:

Skald: Melee start that uses spells to strengthen the player
Enchanter: Melee start that uses spells to weaken enemies
Warper: Ranged start that uses spells to strengthen the player
Arcane Marksman: Ranged start that uses spells to weaken enemies

[Siegurt]

Warpers do start with darts (Back when missiles had enchantments, they started with "good (+2?) darts") Back then they *were* intended as a "use magic to get good position for killing stuff at range". Of course darts pretty much suck outside after D:2, and warpers now get to choose their melee weapon, making them considerably more "melee oriented" than they used to be.

The fact is that there's not much spell-wise that's "buff ranged combat" (there's pProj, and Haste and... I think that's it? arguably blink maybe?), even the brand spells never worked on ranged weapons (Which I always felt like was a shame, since branded launchers have decent drawbacks)

I think of the two Warpers have the weaker start, but probably their starting spellbook has more long-term use, and AM have the stronger start weapon wise, but have a spell set that isn't quite as long-term useful.

What I'd really like to see is some more spells that could go in either or both starting spellbooks.

I suggested a necromancy spell which would probably be a good AM spell as well (Soul link: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12044&p=169477&hilit=+soul+link#p169477)

[Lasty]

an effect approximated by a single fireball!

The effect is considerably stronger than a single fireball. Fireballs don't leave flame clouds behind.

[XuaXua]

I think Inner Flame would be a lot less awkward to use {...} for an effect approximated by a single fireball!

And multiple tactical "conjure flame" casts. It's great for defense.

... dammit, should have read to the end of the thread before replying. Thanks, Lasty!

[Midpoint]

Um, am I the only person who generally doesn't bother with the enslavement part and just IFs a weak enemy first (e.g., orc next to the warrior I want to kill) and one shots that? Then you IF the warrior, or something else in the flames and continue the fun... fear folks through the flames... oh it is a nice spell when used properly and in combination. Stand behind your wall of flame clouds and peg the remnants. Good times.

That said, warper as a ranged start sounds pretty strong, possibly fun.

[headcrab0803]

Inner flame just needs to be castable on friendly skeletons and its all good
save my mad zombie bomber

[neil]

Inner Flame is now safe to use on allies. It still doesn't work on summons.

[XuaXua]

Inner Flame is now safe to use on allies. It still doesn't work on summons.

Since the player can see all inner-flamed entities, regardless of the source of the inner-flaming, that would imply all monsters would, too.

Given that all monsters would then be capable to identify the inner-flamed, shouldn't there be some adjustment to some intelligent-ranks of AI tactics to avoid close-combat with an inner-flamed target at certain levels of health/vulnerability?

[tabstorm]

Well, I think this is a good change, I still would like to have pproj in the starter book but it's not happening I guess.