Sparkling fountain message timing


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Post Tuesday, 25th February 2014, 19:49

Sparkling fountain message timing

I would like it if sparkling fountains notified you that they were no longer sparkling on the turn the magic runs out. As is, the message "This fountain contains nothing but water" only appears if you try to quaff again -- but since the fountain's ineligible, this also automatically brings up the potion quaffing menu (and if you have a potion slotted to 'y' you may end up drinking it accidentally).
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 00:00

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

I propose removing sparkling/blood fountain quaffing instead
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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 01:12

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

yeah, what is the point of having it there?
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Vestibule Violator

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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 01:45

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

Blood fountains are for vamps in pan and abyss I think, but I don't see any reason to have them now.
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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 02:02

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

Hirsch I wrote:yeah, what is the point of having it there?


Fun. Don't freak out, it's a legit reason.
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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 02:27

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

it is the only reasonable reason to have anything in a game. unfortunately, it fails to accomplish that, as almost every player just ignores it. of course, leaving it here or not makes no difference, and I guess the devs could take them out or greatly change them without anyone noticing for a year.
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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 03:13

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

unmitigated fun does not belong in roguelikes. seconded proposal to remove
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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 03:39

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

Sparkling fountains are nothing more than a trap for unspoiled players, and blood fountains are the same as a bunch of blood potions that happen to be nailed to the floor. I don't find either of these things fun, and I think they'd be much better off being strictly decorative.

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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 04:55

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

I disagree that they're only a trap for unspoiled players -- this would be true if on the whole the fountains' effects were bad, but according to the wiki (I KNOW) the chances of good potions outweigh bad 3:2, so if you quaff at every opportunity it will work out in your favor in the long run -- though they remain very spoilery for sure. And I wouldn't object at all to their removal.

But my point was about an interface issue, and as long as they remain in the game it would be nice to have it fixed.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 05:25

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

tedric wrote:the chances of good potions outweigh bad 3:2, so if you quaff at every opportunity it will work out in your favor in the long run.

I disagree. most of the beneficial effects of the fountain are completely tactical, so, if you quaff it outside of combat (and I dont see any reason to quaff it during combat) the chance of a random mutation screwing you is much bigger than a the chance of you getting a beneficial mutation.
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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 05:38

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

  Code:
random_choose_weighted(467, NUM_POTIONS,
                                   48,  POT_DECAY,
                                   40,  POT_MUTATION,
                                   40,  POT_CURING,
                                   40,  POT_HEAL_WOUNDS,
                                   40,  POT_SPEED,
                                   40,  POT_MIGHT,
                                   40,  POT_AGILITY,
                                   40,  POT_BRILLIANCE,
                                   32,  POT_DEGENERATION,
                                   27,  POT_FLIGHT,
                                   27,  POT_POISON,
                                   27,  POT_SLOWING,
                                   27,  POT_PARALYSIS,
                                   27,  POT_CONFUSION,
                                   27,  POT_INVISIBILITY,
                                   20,  POT_MAGIC,
                                   20,  POT_RESTORE_ABILITIES,
                                   20,  POT_RESISTANCE,
                                   20,  POT_STRONG_POISON,
                                   20,  POT_BERSERK_RAGE,
                                   12,  POT_BENEFICIAL_MUTATION,
                                   0);

(NUM_POTIONS means nothing happens)

1.131% chance of something useful (beneficial mutation), 8.294% chance of something bad (mutation, decay), 90.575% chance of nothing (everything else*). Not only do you get a bad result 8 out of 9 times you get a result at all, it's a bad result that is very likely to be more detrimental than the good result is beneficial.

*okay, curing and heal wounds are useful if you happen to be running around with rot, which I suppose is fairly likely considering that you think it's a good idea to drink from sparkling fountains. Even then I can't imagine it would ever be a good idea though.
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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 06:11

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

What if sparkling fountains gave one beneficial temporary potion effect, then dried up?

There would be no incentive to 'scum' sparkling fountains as you couldn't take the effect to a different place in the dungeon before it wore off. You could use it on the same level/an adjacent level maybe, but only once, and I think that could be interesting if someone pulls use out of it.
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Blades Runner

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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 06:42

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

Regardless of whether they have a purpose or not, regardless of whether they are useful or not, I honestly don't see how removing them would improve the game in the slightest. I'm OK with removing certain fundamental aspects of the game to achieve better gameplay (e.g. Traps & Doors, Mountain Dwarves, etc.), but something as small and trivial as a sparkling/blood fountain should have no reason for concern.

They currently fulfill their role of providing aesthetics quite nicely. There is absolutely no reason why we should remove these fountains because of such petty reasons. What we should really be doing is removing the ability to quaff from fountains. Currently there is virtually no real reason to bother to quaff from a fountain, and it's not intuitive either. I didn't even know it was possible to quaff from a fountain until I tried quaffing a potion while standing over a fountain. So, we remove fountain quaffing, and we keep all the different kinds of fountains. This should solve the "problem" (it wasn't really a problem to begin with) while maintaining the integrity of vaults and retaining the aesthetic variety that sparkling/blood fountains provide.

EDIT: I misread the posts in this thread. I thought you guys were saying that we should remove sparkling and blood fountains. Well, regardless, I agree with all of you. Remove fountain quaffing.

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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 07:39

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

NOOOOOOO.

Sparkling fountain quaffing is one of my favorite things in crawl.

I'm dead serious.

If there is a fountain, I will quaff it.

Can we at least have them in vaults/altar vaults for quaffing purposes?
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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 08:11

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

In a hypothetical fountain revamp where quaffing from fountains was balanced/a meaningful choice, a hint that you could drink from them could be put in examining them, whenever you stand on top of them or both. Or even put one in the tutorial.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 09:38

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

I saw "quaff" so many times in this thread it stopped sounding like a real word. weird.
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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 10:26

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

I propose that we remove quaffing from fountains and replace it with quaffing fountains. Because aesthetic concerns are important too, and certain persons in this thread profess to enjoying the practice of quaffing fountains.

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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 12:31

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

Huh I thought sparkling fountains got removed like a long time ago. Somebody must have quaffed the ones in my games before I got there.

I suppose that would explain all the ghosts...

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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 15:16

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

Please don't remove them. Yes, they are goofy and awkward, but they serve two slightly practical uses;

1) Chance of temporary potion effects. I know sparkling fountains generate right before several vaults and end branches, like elf 3 and at least 1 ice cave. Like almost everything else in the game, it's a gamble, but it's nice to have the option.

2) Mutation gambling for low level characters. For funsies.

I think it would be dumb to remove something that has no effect on 90% of players. While that in itself is an argument, it's not like they provide gamebreaking effects to the players that do use them.

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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 15:47

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

They should be reworked if they're intended to fulfill a tactical function, though. At the moment they do seem to be largely a trap considering there's a high chance that they'll give you a strategic disadvantage.

Maybe "a potion bolted to the floor" (ie, it tells you what effect it's going to have) could be an interesting thing to use in portal vaults, though.

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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 16:18

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

Leafsnail wrote:
Maybe "a potion bolted to the floor" (ie, it tells you what effect it's going to have) could be an interesting thing to use in portal vaults, though.


I hope it comes with a straw, that'd be quite a task to drink.

Would be interesting to have something like an "urn of trapped magic" that you could smash and would release a random array of effects; potion effects, buffs, debuffs, summons, that kinda thing. This is in essence what sparkling fountains are trying to be right now, it's just that the negative effects from sparkling founts have the potential to be awful.

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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 16:21

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

I'm gonna go in the "sparkling fountains are a fun concept but need a rework in the execution" camp. Right now, drinking for a sparkling fountain is kind of like Quaff-IDing a potion, except it doesn't use up a potion. In combat, you probably only want to use it in emergencies, because the risk of a paralysis or confuse would usually outweigh the chance of something nice - I think in most situations where you could survive a paralysis, you could survive with no effect too. Outside of combat, it's basically a mutation roulette that usually does nothing. Neither of these effects are very interesting.

Personally, I think Sparkling Fountains have a lot of potential to be something fun and exciting to stumble upon. We just need to make them more likely to be useful. I think mainly, they should either be purely tactical, or purely strategic.

If they're purely tactical, I would make them very heavily weighted towards good effects, and possibly remove the particularly nasty tactical effects like paralysis. As I said, the problem with including extremely dangerous effects in there is that you usually have to be desperate to drink one. Most of the time, it would probably be safer to teleport or fight without the fountain or quaff a known potion than to quaff the fountain. Sure, we can always take the "it's just for fun, it doesn't need to be tactically useful" approach, but I'd say the fountain's more fun if it's more tactically interesting. There should be more cases where drinking from a fountain hoping for something that turns a fight around is better, or at least comparable to, trying to escape.

Personally, I think balancing that would be tough, and I'd rather see them changed to be purely strategic. Letting them stay as a mutation roulette, just increasing the odds of the mutation-related potions (maybe make it evenly divided between nothing, cure mutations, beneficial mutations, or random mutations) would be the simplest way to do this, and would still be fun, although I think a lot of people would rather avoid the risk. It would still be more fun for people who enjoy using the fountains as a mutation roulette, though, which I think outnumber the people who like to quaff them mid-fight hoping for a good tactical effect.

It's possible we could come up with more interesting effects, though. There are a lot of fun strategic effects out there, both good and bad, although not all fit with quaffing from a fountain. At the very least, we could include temporary-but-still-long-enough-to-be-somewhat-strategic effects like stat drain, rot, or opposite effects. But there might be other neat things too. Granting a Vehumet-style one-time random spell memorizaton would be interesting. Affecting the enchant level on your weapon or granting an item or permanent ally would also be neat if we could come up with a reasonable flavor explanation. Some tactical effects that could still be a risk outside of combat could also included as possible negatives, like teleportation (although, come to think of it, teleportation would just encourage clearing the whole level before drinking it, which isn't too interesting).

Either way, I think a dungeon feature you can find that you can use for neat effects is a cool concept. The fact that some people still quaff them for a mutation roulette just for fun even though they're usually useless and sometimes harmful kind of shows that. And I think there's a way to take that concept and make it more tactically or strategically compelling for the people who find the current fountains useless/too risky.
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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 22:56

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

Random idea for sparkling fountains of the tactical-effects-only-revamp variety: Make them identifiable by standing over them and using a scroll of identify (hint at by, for example, putting 'unidentified' at the start of the name). Since you get more scrolls of ID than you need in a game anyway, it's not a newbie trap.
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Barkeep

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Post Wednesday, 26th February 2014, 23:51

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

Maybe this is where we put "strategic consumables," something I always see dpeg mentioning off-handedly for future consideration. Make a few different sparkling fountains that act as recharge, weapon/armour enchantment, beneficial mutation, etc. Require an ID scroll to discover the "function" of a fountain. Obviously, you couldn't carry a fountain around with you, which is the main drawback for this idea, but it'd be an improvement over the current situation.

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Post Thursday, 27th February 2014, 04:45

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

archaeo wrote:Maybe this is where we put "strategic consumables," something I always see dpeg mentioning off-handedly for future consideration. Make a few different sparkling fountains that act as recharge, weapon/armour enchantment, beneficial mutation, etc. Require an ID scroll to discover the "function" of a fountain. Obviously, you couldn't carry a fountain around with you, which is the main drawback for this idea, but it'd be an improvement over the current situation.


I assume by this you mean the issue of tactical actions (read/quaff-IDing and item destruction) digging into your strategic resources instead of just your tactical ones?

In which case, I think you've got an excellent point.
----It's a big deal for you to lose ?blink to a fire attack, but it's a tactical escape resource that enemies are denying to you.
----Losing ?Enchant Armor to the same attack would be something you're upset about, as it is also a rare and valuable resource, but there's no reason for you to be carrying one around in the first place.
---------ergo, we shouldn't allow new players to make the mistake of carrying huge stacks of ?enchant and the only !Cmut they've ever found around.

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Post Thursday, 27th February 2014, 04:46

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

Speleothing wrote:
archaeo wrote:Maybe this is where we put "strategic consumables," something I always see dpeg mentioning off-handedly for future consideration. Make a few different sparkling fountains that act as recharge, weapon/armour enchantment, beneficial mutation, etc. Require an ID scroll to discover the "function" of a fountain. Obviously, you couldn't carry a fountain around with you, which is the main drawback for this idea, but it'd be an improvement over the current situation.


I assume by this you mean the issue of tactical actions (read/quaff-IDing and item destruction) digging into your strategic resources instead of just your tactical ones?

In which case, I think you've got an excellent point.
----It's a big deal for you to lose ?blink to a fire attack, but it's a tactical escape resource that enemies are denying to you.
----Losing ?Enchant Armor to the same attack would be something you're upset about, as it is also a rare and valuable resource, but there's no reason for you to be carrying one around in the first place.
---------ergo, we shouldn't allow new players to make the mistake of carrying huge stacks of ?enchant and the only !Cmut they've ever found around with them as they explore and fight.

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Post Wednesday, 5th March 2014, 16:33

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

Why remove quaffing from fountains? It doesn't get in the way of anything, and there is the 0.00001% chance one might come in handy, like if you're poisoned and low on HP, and get lucky and get heal/cure from the fountain...

I also like the idea of making sparkling fountains just give 1 beneficial potion effect when quaffed, but also allow monsters to quaff them.

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Post Wednesday, 5th March 2014, 16:48

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

damiac wrote:Why remove quaffing from fountains?

because
damiac wrote:there is the 0.00001% chance one might come in handy

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Post Wednesday, 19th March 2014, 07:06

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

Here's an idea: have sparkling fountains have the same effect set as potions, and are identifiable in the same way. The difference is that they may be used 3-10 times (for example), and only in that one location, whereas a potion is portable and can only be used once. Discovering a fountain of cure mutation for example can be super useful, and making the trip back to the fountain (which may be several levels away), and facing whatever perils exist in between, adds a fun strategic element that doesn't closely exist elsewhere in the game.

As far as identifiability, if I already have quaffed a cure poison potion for example, and the fountain is a cure poison fountain, it will already be identified to me as such. Otherwise, is will appear as the same color of liquid as the unidentified potion would be. If I have a black potion in my possession for example, and I come across a fountain of black water, I can choose to use a identifying scroll on the potion which will automatically identify the fountain as well. If I wasn't lucky enough to be carrying a black potion, and haven't already identified this potion effect, then I would have no way to identify the fountain without quaffing it, or continuing through the dungeon until I had found a potion of similar color I could use the identity scroll on.

To spice things up a little further, you could have a special color not used by potions (for example, sparkling pink water) that would mark an especially rare effect not found in any potion, some of which would be very positive, some of which may be a survivable (if your in good condition) negative (but nothing devastating). A player could easily notice when this is the case, but would have to decide whether the potential benefits are worth the risk at this time or not.

For example, the fountain may be golden water which would cure all negative effects/mutations/etc, and fully restore health and magic, but each time you drink from it, there's a 1/10 chance of a dragon spawning next to the fountain that will either kill you or chase you off (maybe it wouldn't leave the room where the fountain is).

There's a ton of potential here and I think it would be sad to just remove the "magic" from the fountains. I'm all for removing redundant elements from the game. I think that one of the most valuable and brilliant achievements of this game is how well boredom and repetition is avoided in it's design. But I think here is a chance to add further to the myriad of interesting strategies that can be employed in this game.

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Post Wednesday, 19th March 2014, 16:57

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

I like the "fountains of potion" idea, though we should probably figure out what effects to leave out so we avoid people dragging monsters all the way back to the fountain of whatever. Especially powerful effects (like the heal everything fountain) could only have one or maybe two charges in them, whereas something like cure poison would have several.
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Post Wednesday, 19th March 2014, 16:57

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

or you could just generate the potion instead of the fountain

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Post Wednesday, 19th March 2014, 19:22

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

Crazy idea- What if fountains had an aura of that potion. So poison fountains would poison everything near them, curing fountains would +regen everything near them, berserk would be just plain hilarious.
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Post Thursday, 20th March 2014, 12:06

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

Turn fountains to wishing wells: toss in some amount of money and have a small probability of getting acquirement effect. The more money you sacrifice (in one go), the bigger the chance.
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Post Thursday, 5th June 2014, 08:36

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

I may be just once voice in the wilderness on this, but I think removing the ability to quaff from sparkling fountains was a bad game decision.
1. It helps nobody.
2. It removes a potential source of fun.
3. Sparkling fountains are now pointless.
I loved quaffing sparkling fountains. I was happy every time I found one. I like random effects; I'm happy when they're good, and when they are bad I deal with it. The game is now a bit less fun for me. It seems to me the devs should be trying to make it more fun, not less. Removing fun things based on non-existent problems (no one was forced to quaff, it didn't disrupt game balance, etc) is bad.

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Post Thursday, 5th June 2014, 13:13

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

For the love of beogh, we don't need to get rid of everything that's slightly superfluous to hacking and blasting - some of us find the atmospheric/random stuff FUN. I enjoy fountains, they're a random source of fun/interest, and one of the last true gambles in DCSS. More than that, I've found fountains of blood plenty useful in the past.

Please don't get rid of it just because it doesn't fit into the view of making DCSS the leanest RL possible, they don't get in the way of anyone's enjoyment, they fill a role of a random dungeon gamble, and they offer a surprise to first time players.
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Post Thursday, 5th June 2014, 14:33

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

I completely agree, those fountains weren't hurting anyone who didn't ask for it. I think making them a 1 time quaff would have been a little better than requiring repeated quaffings though.

Quaff!

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Post Thursday, 5th June 2014, 15:10

Re: Sparkling fountain message timing

Also, it really isn't that much of a stretch of the imagination to think "oh a fountain I can drink from it?"

You can add a comment that you can drink to 'V'
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