Feedback on Gozag design

Saturday, 14th March 2015, 21:36 by scorpionwarrior

nicolae wrote:
On the other hand, "get exactly what you want all the time" is not a design goal of Crawl. It's why there's no wands of wishing.

I guess I'm ok with having sucky choices in the game but not if they're also really annoying to use.

Saturday, 14th March 2015, 21:51 by mps

True, randomness for its own sake is a design goal of DCSS. On the other hand, getting what you want whenever you want it wouldn't be what you get with Gozag. You'd just get something closer to what you want in exchange for money and not having another god, which seems in the spirit of trade-offs and player choices available in other aspects of crawl.

I find it odd that there's actually a design goal that gives people nowhere to stand in saying that such and such a thing is overly random, but whatever.

Sunday, 15th March 2015, 07:38 by gammafunk

There's no design goal that "gives people nowhere to stand in saying that such and such a thing is overly random." If you're referring to the philosophy section of the manual, then it states "However, this does not mean that wins are an arbitrary matter of luck: the skill of players will have the largest impact" among other statements that are against the idea of a game that is purely or overly random in terms of not requiring a sufficient level of player skill. That section does allow that unavoidable deaths might occur, but the idea there is that it's hard to make a randomized game that's fun and where the correct actions guarantee a win, so we try to make a game that's randomized, fun, yet where the correct actions make a win at least highly likely.

There certainly are things in crawl which are probably too random, but if we see something like that and can find a way to introduce meaningful decision-making and keep the good parts of that gameplay, we try to do this.

Sunday, 15th March 2015, 17:51 by mps

Yeah, I understand that the "randomness" design goal is somewhat qualified in the manual, but it's frequently trotted out in these discussions as "randomness as such." The discussion of vaults later in that section seems to show considerable confusion about the nature of randomness and how it can be used in game design.

Bringing this back to Gozag and potion petition, it appears to me that what's given is a number of independently randomly chosen options. If you argue that the player should be given more choice or that the random choices made by the game should not be independent, then you may run afoul of this design principle. There's no design goal that the player should be able to get what he wants, but there is a design goal of making things random, whether doing so makes sense or not. So on the margin, once a design like current Gozag is set, there's built-in opposition to making it more useful to players by making it less random or offering the player more choice. Even offering interesting trade-offs in prices and so on doesn't help against the charge that you're making things easier on the player by making things less random, even if, in fact, whether it's easier or not on the player isn't even decided -- no one said anything concrete about how to price things in the alternate scheme.

The design philosophy would be improved by some recognition that randomness is a subtle concept and that it must be controlled. Roguelike games are not primarily about randomness, this is just a way in which they differ from most other CRPGs. The key thing is the balance of control and randomness. Unfortunately, by enshrining randomness as such, the design philosophy supports positions that are very dubious -- high variance is good, making random choices independently is good, offering less choice among various random options is good, etc. because those things are "more random" than their alternatives.

Sunday, 15th March 2015, 19:24 by gammafunk

I would add "a design goal of making things random, whether doing so makes sense or not" to my list of things that are neither crawl design goals nor described as such in the manual. There are god abilities in crawl that are almost completely predictable (Hero, Finesse, Pain Mirror, Trog's Hand, Vitalize, Slimify, Divine Shield to name a few), there are some that are only random through the damage they deal, and there are some that are random in terms of both damage and the chosen effect. Gozag's potion petition is a random choice each time probably because dpeg felt that would make a frequently-used ability interesting, not because of a close reading of the nature of crawl randomness in the Philosophy section.

Dpeg can comment in better detail about why he made potion petition, and where he might like to change the ability, so I've told him about activity in this thread.

Sunday, 15th March 2015, 19:42 by mps

Discussion of game design generally occurs on the margin (that is, "going forward," given the current state of play what should be done now?). I don't say that I think dpeg designed potion petition with the goal of making it "random" -- I don't know and I don't care. What I say is that now that the initial decisions are made, it becomes more difficult to argue against that design because there's a design goal that is pro-randomness in an imprecise, as-written broad sense.

The point is, the response to altering the ability to give the player more control, where that control may come at a high price is: Giving the player "what he wants" is not a design goal of crawl. Unstated, but also true and relevant to the evocation of design principles, is that randomizing things is a design goal of crawl. Between two options, the current state of affairs where you get a (independently, randomly chosen) number of sets to choose from at different prices, and a new proposal, where you get one set to choose a subset of at various prices (where the price depends on the selection in a complicated way), the fact that player choice mitigates the randomness of the initial selection is as such a downside to this proposal -- it cuts against design goals in comparison to existing mechanics. That's the effect of the design philosophy on the margin.

Sunday, 15th March 2015, 20:35 by gammafunk

The Philosophy section is written for a broad audience and is not terribly precise because it's meant to be accessible. I think the development team just disagree's with the notion that Crawl's philosophy means randomness must be introduced in a specific way or at all cost, over better gameplay. We like randomness to be present when it improves replayability but consider proposals with less randomness if the latter introduces better tactical or strategic decision making.

Sunday, 15th March 2015, 21:14 by mps

On the other hand, you don't see anyone articulating such a perspective in the game design forums (*edit: except by you when the issue is brought up explicitly), dev team or otherwise. You do see people saying something like "randomness is good" pretty frequently though. On balance, the effect of this part of the game philosophy faq is to create a bias toward "randomness" in discussion of design where such a bias is possible, for example when an existing design uses randomization in a critical way and a proposed change would mitigate it.

It's good to hear that the dev team does not see this section of the faq as meaning exactly what I characterized it as saying, though I would've guessed that anyway. I think it is nevertheless true that the randomness section colors forum discussion along the lines I describe above.

Monday, 23rd March 2015, 01:16 by Shard1697

I don't like how once you have explored all shop-spawnable areas, shops you create will just plop down at your feet-it's weird how the ability gets more convenient once you run out of unexplored floors, instead of less. I really would prefer gozag if either

Shops could only be created on unexplored floors and killing multiple enemies in quick succession made them drop more gold, so that you were rewarded for "playing greedily" in order to get enough gold to make shops before you lost the opportunity for more, or
shops were just always placed at your feet.

Either way I feel like the "chaining enemy kills for more gold" would be really nice.

Thursday, 2nd April 2015, 20:24 by BobIsDead

Random Unwarranted Gozag Suggestions.

Replace "Call Merchant" with "Stock Shuffle".
Instead of creating a new shop, using Stock Shuffle will alter the inventory within a pre-existing shop. They'll still be the same type of item (weapons will change to other types of weapons, wands to other types of wands), but will be moderately weighted towards the player's needs.

Replace "Bribe Branch" with "Gold Fever".
The player uses some gold to create a temporary cloud of gold dust nearby. All human-intelligence enemies within range have a chance of becoming Fevered. When Fevered, they move directly towards the cloud of gold dust, ignoring the player along the way. There they fight with any other Fevered creatures within the cloud of gold dust.

Replace "Duplication" with "Gilding".
Instead of duplicating an item in one's inventory, items from one's inventory can be improved. Non-artefact weapons and armour can be gilded, expending gold to improve the item's base stats, leaving enchantments unaffected. For example, a gilded whip has higher accuracy and deals greater damage than a regular whip. Gilding a +2 whip of venom creates a +2 gilded whip of venom.

Thursday, 2nd April 2015, 21:22 by rchandra

Stock shuffle sounds really neat. I'm not sure if it's better as a replacement of Call merchant, or an addition (with Call Merchant no longer usable once you run out of floors). This also suggests that you not buy marginal scrolls/potions (say that 5th scroll of fear).

Gold Fever sounds more tactical and comprehensible than Bribe Branch so that's already a big improvement.

Gilding would be a one-time use like Duplication was? interesting, I'm actually more concerned about Gozag-scumming with that than I was with duplication. Maybe you'd have to pay a gold cost too, not sure how much.

Monday, 6th April 2015, 12:42 by BobIsDead

In my mind, at least initially, Gilding was a multiple time deal that cost gold. However, I started to err on it being a big one-time thing, when I realised that the alternative might make it into a glorified version of enchanting equipment. I know that mechanically it would be quite different, but when you get down to it, you'd be spending a resource to permanently improve a wearable/equippable item.

But, like you said, just making it a free one-off thing would probably open the door to a lot of scummy tactics, so I'm probably coming back round to my original perspective in light of that.

Monday, 13th April 2015, 23:49 by kvaak

crate wrote:
Spoiler: show
I disagree about the corpses -> gold mechanic being terrible (I like it as a player since pressing aad periodically is less work than pressing c on lots of corpses), but I agree that effectively every single other thing Gozag does needs lots of work.

Gold giving a tactical bonus is super weird and the way it's implemented has the additional problem of incentivising not picking up gold (until it stops giving the tactical bonus). I hope I do not have to elaborate on why this is awkward at best.

Potion petition is basically Nemelex except with only a single deck and every time you use it you triple draw (apparently Nemelex has only a single deck in new_nemelex branch but I touched on why I think that's not ideal from a design standpoint in the Nemelex topic). The original way it worked where you could "save" up a specific potion set to use later had the problem that it heavily encouraged setting up precisely that, but the new way where you must choose an effect immediately is both awkward in that you cannot cancel at all (every other similar ability can be canceled until you have made the final decision asked for; you can cancel decks by using esc instead of targeting, for example, at the cost of the card) and awkward as TDA suggests because you cannot see the cost before you attempt to use the ability.

Possibly the shop buying has changed since I played Gozag but if it hasn't: the price you pay to create a shop should probably be disconnected from the value of the shop's items. My general impression was that all this accomplished was making low-sum-of-value shops even more desirable than they already were (and potion and scroll shops in particular are already the most desirable shops in general, and also the least "valuable"). Other types of shops were dramatically too expensive to be worthwhile (you could get how many potion effects for that cost?) though this is an implementation thing.

Bribing seemed a complete waste of 3k gold to me when I tried it but I'll assume that it's been tweaked since then. I don't have problems with it in theory but it has to beat out 3k worth of potions pretty handily to be worth using.

Additionally there seems to be no real theme to this god. All other gods tend to have at least some loose flavour/gameplay theme that connects their abilities together: Fedhas has various tactical abilities (plus mushrooms which are a mix of tactical and strategic) that are mostly not accessible in other ways with a "nature god" flavour; Nemelex is the "effects god" as I discussed elsewhere; Makhleb gives you offensive abilities that fit "demonic" flavour; Dith has various somewhat-defensive effects (plus shadow mimic which still doesn't make sense to me but ok); even Q has elemental damage as a theme. Gozag is just "here's a collection of things completely unrelated to gold, oh and shops except you don't want to use the shops".

It's a shame that a year later and after Gozag, for some incomprehensible reason, made it into a stable version all of this still applies.

The joining fee is completely pointless and largely detrimental - it's perfectly realistic to run into a situation where you plan to join Gozag all along only to find out you can't. How DARE you pick up those aux armour pieces from an early shop! If people swapping to Gozag later to buy a bunch of shops is an issue, and frankly I'd argue it's not since anyone who attempts to do this has to farm so much it doesn't matter anyway, it's easily fixed by applying to joining fee ONLY if Gozag isn't your first god.

Potion petition? Way, way too expensive early to be of much use. As usual you don't even know what kind of offers you're going to get, or how much they cost. Oh and no porridge anymore as a cheap option. Having it was nice since you STILL can't quit the potion interface after you use potion petition until you buy something. Oh, and speaking of porridge I hope you dislike eating chunks because Gozag prevents doing just that. And potion petition no longer has porridge. Food shops are expensive, probably get placed somewhere you can't reach, come into play so late it probably doesn't make a difference anyway and only appear randomly.

Yeah, that's what call merchant is. You spend a ton of gold so you might get to pick a shop type you want. Then it gets placed somewhere you can't reach it. Clearing Lair? Better dump that shop inside Vaults! Oh and stuff inside is probably garbage, as is often the case with shops. Well it's essentially a god gift so no problem with that. Except other god gifts are free. With Gozag you have to spend what is essentially your piety.

Bribe branch might be a decent ability if it wasn't ludicrously expensive, didn't suddenly time out with no warning and worked somehow consistently (last time I used it in Zot it affected a total of zero draconians). And didn't have the "works in *that* branch but not *this* one as *that* one has bribable enemies and *this* one doesn't because reasons" thing going on.

Duplicate at the very least seems to be gone which is okay, it was a weird ability in the first place. Also I'm not entirely convinced the ability to (eventually) trivially ransack random shops is really desirable. No other god has such interaction with pre-existing features. Closest thing was probably threat-free holypan for followers of good gods and that's a thing of the past.

All in all I'm puzzled by the fact this god I've seen very little positive feedback on, who has remained essentially untouched for the last year or so (except for the starving part, dohoho) despite all the obvious complaints and flaws, who in pretty much every stage of the game is outshadowed by most other gods, who doesn't even add anything significantly interesting or unique to gameplay (spamming shops, sure, oka already floods you with crap and he does it for free in addition to being an extremely desirable deity), made it into a stable version. I didn't mind Gozag while he was in trunk since trunk is for experimenting but the fact he was included in 0.16 implies he's a finished and desirable addition. I couldn't disagree more.

At best Gozag gives you a shot at getting additional bling for your atheist-ish character. That's pretty much it. Sort of resembles Chei as a god of messing around, not winning. Except Chei actually has a solid theme, interesting abilities and a notable impact on your gameplay (+ he's actually a good pick for speedrunning). None of that applies to Gozag.

Oh, and since corpse gold seems to glitter for ages you'd better avoid picking up gold while following the gold god. Remember to disable autopickup too whenever potentially useful piles of gold are around!

Tuesday, 14th April 2015, 02:51 by Kismet

kvaak wrote:
crate wrote:
Spoiler: show
I disagree about the corpses -> gold mechanic being terrible (I like it as a player since pressing aad periodically is less work than pressing c on lots of corpses), but I agree that effectively every single other thing Gozag does needs lots of work.

Gold giving a tactical bonus is super weird and the way it's implemented has the additional problem of incentivising not picking up gold (until it stops giving the tactical bonus). I hope I do not have to elaborate on why this is awkward at best.

Potion petition is basically Nemelex except with only a single deck and every time you use it you triple draw (apparently Nemelex has only a single deck in new_nemelex branch but I touched on why I think that's not ideal from a design standpoint in the Nemelex topic). The original way it worked where you could "save" up a specific potion set to use later had the problem that it heavily encouraged setting up precisely that, but the new way where you must choose an effect immediately is both awkward in that you cannot cancel at all (every other similar ability can be canceled until you have made the final decision asked for; you can cancel decks by using esc instead of targeting, for example, at the cost of the card) and awkward as TDA suggests because you cannot see the cost before you attempt to use the ability.

Possibly the shop buying has changed since I played Gozag but if it hasn't: the price you pay to create a shop should probably be disconnected from the value of the shop's items. My general impression was that all this accomplished was making low-sum-of-value shops even more desirable than they already were (and potion and scroll shops in particular are already the most desirable shops in general, and also the least "valuable"). Other types of shops were dramatically too expensive to be worthwhile (you could get how many potion effects for that cost?) though this is an implementation thing.

Bribing seemed a complete waste of 3k gold to me when I tried it but I'll assume that it's been tweaked since then. I don't have problems with it in theory but it has to beat out 3k worth of potions pretty handily to be worth using.

Additionally there seems to be no real theme to this god. All other gods tend to have at least some loose flavour/gameplay theme that connects their abilities together: Fedhas has various tactical abilities (plus mushrooms which are a mix of tactical and strategic) that are mostly not accessible in other ways with a "nature god" flavour; Nemelex is the "effects god" as I discussed elsewhere; Makhleb gives you offensive abilities that fit "demonic" flavour; Dith has various somewhat-defensive effects (plus shadow mimic which still doesn't make sense to me but ok); even Q has elemental damage as a theme. Gozag is just "here's a collection of things completely unrelated to gold, oh and shops except you don't want to use the shops".

It's a shame that a year later and after Gozag, for some incomprehensible reason, made it into a stable version all of this still applies.

The joining fee is completely pointless and largely detrimental - it's perfectly realistic to run into a situation where you plan to join Gozag all along only to find out you can't. How DARE you pick up those aux armour pieces from an early shop! If people swapping to Gozag later to buy a bunch of shops is an issue, and frankly I'd argue it's not since anyone who attempts to do this has to farm so much it doesn't matter anyway, it's easily fixed by applying to joining fee ONLY if Gozag isn't your first god.

Potion petition? Way, way too expensive early to be of much use. As usual you don't even know what kind of offers you're going to get, or how much they cost. Oh and no porridge anymore as a cheap option. Having it was nice since you STILL can't quit the potion interface after you use potion petition until you buy something. Oh, and speaking of porridge I hope you dislike eating chunks because Gozag prevents doing just that. And potion petition no longer has porridge. Food shops are expensive, probably get placed somewhere you can't reach, come into play so late it probably doesn't make a difference anyway and only appear randomly.

Yeah, that's what call merchant is. You spend a ton of gold so you might get to pick a shop type you want. Then it gets placed somewhere you can't reach it. Clearing Lair? Better dump that shop inside Vaults! Oh and stuff inside is probably garbage, as is often the case with shops. Well it's essentially a god gift so no problem with that. Except other god gifts are free. With Gozag you have to spend what is essentially your piety.

Bribe branch might be a decent ability if it wasn't ludicrously expensive, didn't suddenly time out with no warning and worked somehow consistently (last time I used it in Zot it affected a total of zero draconians). And didn't have the "works in *that* branch but not *this* one as *that* one has bribable enemies and *this* one doesn't because reasons" thing going on.

Duplicate at the very least seems to be gone which is okay, it was a weird ability in the first place. Also I'm not entirely convinced the ability to (eventually) trivially ransack random shops is really desirable. No other god has such interaction with pre-existing features. Closest thing was probably threat-free holypan for followers of good gods and that's a thing of the past.

All in all I'm puzzled by the fact this god I've seen very little positive feedback on, who has remained essentially untouched for the last year or so (except for the starving part, dohoho) despite all the obvious complaints and flaws, who in pretty much every stage of the game is outshadowed by most other gods, who doesn't even add anything significantly interesting or unique to gameplay (spamming shops, sure, oka already floods you with crap and he does it for free in addition to being an extremely desirable deity), made it into a stable version. I didn't mind Gozag while he was in trunk since trunk is for experimenting but the fact he was included in 0.16 implies he's a finished and desirable addition. I couldn't disagree more.

At best Gozag gives you a shot at getting additional bling for your atheist-ish character. That's pretty much it. Sort of resembles Chei as a god of messing around, not winning. Except Chei actually has a solid theme, interesting abilities and a notable impact on your gameplay (+ he's actually a good pick for speedrunning). None of that applies to Gozag.

Oh, and since corpse gold seems to glitter for ages you'd better avoid picking up gold while following the gold god. Remember to disable autopickup too whenever potentially useful piles of gold are around!

Gozag has a niche. fun for spriggans and mummies

Tuesday, 14th April 2015, 19:06 by XuaXua

BobIsDead wrote:In my mind, at least initially, Gilding was a multiple time deal that cost gold.

I think it should be that. At least we'd have a use for gold, and I could possibly see the cost increase for a each new gilding.
I wonder if I'd be out of line if I suggested it should work on armour, as well as artefacts.

Make it a certain % improvement, rather than a fixed improvement.

And it should maintain after you leave Gozag. Gild your stuff, then ditch Gozag (and deal with the consequences(?)) for any other god except Zin who would disallow gilded equipment. Tactical choices.

Tuesday, 14th April 2015, 20:11 by kvaak

Kismet wrote:Gozag has a niche. fun for spriggans and mummies

That's pretty much what I said. Getting bling for my Op was kind of fun but it wasn't particularly effective, almost any other god would've been more useful. Sp/Mu have the advantage of not losing out in chunks but honestly that's the least of Gozag's numerous problems. Not to mention Sp is one of the better atheist races.

Oh, and I did win a Mu of Gozag. Not that it means a whole lot since that run had meleebug.

Tuesday, 14th April 2015, 21:13 by KittenInMyCerealz

kvaak wrote:
The joining fee is completely pointless and largely detrimental - it's perfectly realistic to run into a situation where you plan to join Gozag all along only to find out you can't.

At best Gozag gives you a shot at getting additional bling for your atheist-ish character. That's pretty much it. Sort of resembles Chei as a god of messing around, not winning. Except Chei actually has a solid theme, interesting abilities and a notable impact on your gameplay (+ he's actually a good pick for speedrunning). None of that applies to Gozag.

Oh, and since corpse gold seems to glitter for ages you'd better avoid picking up gold while following the gold god. Remember to disable autopickup too whenever potentially useful piles of gold are around!

Couldn't agree more.

The optimal play is to only pick up gold after clearing the whole level, or a whole branch, because monsters getting distracted by it. (also this is a mechanic very similar to Ru's and Ru's is done way better)

the potion petition doesn't fit the theme of a gold god at all.
You use gold to buy simple potion effects, directly from a god.
From what I've gathered, the devs oppose things that are direct copies of item-abilities when it comes to creating god-abilities, yet this does just that.
The same ability also overlaps with no other than his own ability create shops - you can buy potions from there as well.

Bribe branch would be interesting if it actually did, like, anything.
You cant use it mostly anywhere and where you can, it really doesn't do much
(lol spend 3k gold to make like 20 orcs in whole O neutral)

And this gods wrath just doesn't fit it's theme as well;
-Berserking/hasting enemies? how is that related to a merchant/gold god (also directly overlaps with Trog)
-Making you fail your potion quaffing? same as above
-Closing his shops? You've already bought everything you want from there before abandoning him anyways.

Sunday, 19th April 2015, 13:45 by XuaXua

According to the logs, a number of changes to Gozag went into Trunk, and it looks like (1) corpses drop gold more often, (2) undead may drop gold, (3) potion petition is less expensive overall.

My recommendation is to consider some of the more recent ideas from BobIsDead, but instead of replacing abilities, add them.

Wednesday, 22nd April 2015, 00:35 by Shard1697

I would follow Gozag now and again if he made shops appear where you're standing all the time instead of only once you've explored all areas that can have shops.

Wednesday, 22nd April 2015, 06:30 by chequers

I'm working on further Gozag improvements, specifically to Potion petition, which I think is the core of current G's gameplay. Here they are, I'd welcome comments (game balance here, technical on the PR): https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/11

Regarding BobIsDead's ideas, I don't plan to implement any. For one thing, I don't have the technical chops to do so! I think a lot of Gozag's problems can be solved by small tweaks, and that the basic God design is solid.

Wednesday, 22nd April 2015, 12:52 by 1010011010

I've played with Gozag a couple of time but never really used all abilities, but I don't see why potion petition exist? It seems to have two uses: a random buff for combat but also for some food, presumably because corpses are no longer a source for chunks. The first half doesn't really gel with the theme, why potions in particular, why not a shop that sells potions which can also be acquired via Gozag. The second reason is a tad inelegant, you gain nutrition at the expense of gold which you got from your god - why not just get passive nutrition from your god (e.g. something like Greed is Good - gain satiation when gaining new found gold proportional to the amount).

Wednesday, 22nd April 2015, 13:07 by Sar

1010011010 wrote:why potion petition exist

because 1 useful ability is better than 0

Wednesday, 22nd April 2015, 18:06 by Arrhythmia

1010011010 wrote:also for some food

it hasn't done this for a long, long time

Sunday, 26th April 2015, 12:47 by chequers

Does anyone call food merchants with Gozag? What circumstances do you do so?

I'm trying out some reworks of Gozag's call merchant that don't give you so much control over shop type, wondering if it'll be a problem.

Tuesday, 28th April 2015, 06:33 by The Ferret

chequers wrote:Does anyone call food merchants with Gozag? What circumstances do you do so?

I'm trying out some reworks of Gozag's call merchant that don't give you so much control over shop type, wondering if it'll be a problem.

I just called a food merchant because it was cheap and I was running out of food... and it spawned in the Vaults, and I don't have the requisite rune. It probably shouldn't spawn your shop somewhere you can't even access. (TBH I don't see why it can't just spawn at your current location. Personally, if I were in charge of Gozag, I'd try that - and if it does turn out to be overpowered, nerf it from there.)

Tuesday, 28th April 2015, 23:03 by Hirsch I

it is because shop diving is pretty interesting, and just "spend money, get something more or less like you want" is not.

Thursday, 30th April 2015, 07:27 by and into

Well, due to rune lock, spawning in the Vaults doesn't really provide an interesting decision for the character in question. "Should I dip down a few floors to see what the shop has, or explore more carefully?" can be a reasonably interesting choice—in at least certain situations, I would go for it. I would never rush through a branch end + rune vault in order to see the contents of a shop sooner, and I would be surprised if most players did not consider such behavior way too reckless, also.

Thursday, 30th April 2015, 14:59 by mps

Hirsch I wrote:it is because shop diving is pretty interesting, and just "spend money, get something more or less like you want" is not.

Yeah, creating far away shops you may never see or may die trying to reach would be a great effect for a scroll or even something you can pay for in stores you've found. On the other hand, not going Makhleb, for example, to get this effect seems not so interesting, since I would never do it.

Thursday, 30th April 2015, 15:20 by XuaXua

Sar wrote:
1010011010 wrote:why potion petition exist

because 1 useful ability is better than 0

For this message the author Sar has received thanks: 8
Arrhythmia, duvessa, Kismet, kvaak, nago, Rast, rockygargoyle, XuaXua

I'm thinking that, so far, Gozag only has ~2 useful abilities: (1) gold generation and (2) potion petition.

Perhaps some of the other aspects should be re-evaluated.

Thursday, 30th April 2015, 17:01 by dowan

How did Gozag get into stable anyway? Lava orcs were a way better design! So was that half finished smith god. Efreets were a lot more fun as well.

Hmm, I seem to have an affinity for fire themed stuff...

Thursday, 30th April 2015, 17:54 by Arrhythmia

XuaXua wrote:
Sar wrote:
1010011010 wrote:why potion petition exist

because 1 useful ability is better than 0

For this message the author Sar has received thanks: 8
Arrhythmia, duvessa, Kismet, kvaak, nago, Rast, rockygargoyle, XuaXua

I'm thinking that, so far, Gozag only has ~2 useful abilities: (1) gold generation and (2) potion petition.

Perhaps some of the other aspects should be re-evaluated.

saying gold generation is useful with gozag is akin to saying piety generation is useful with every other god

Thursday, 30th April 2015, 20:12 by XuaXua

Arrhythmia wrote:saying gold generation is useful with gozag is akin to saying piety generation is useful with every other god

I'm just sayin; there are times when I just don't have enough gold early on and I want that one expensive item to make Orc easier.

Thursday, 30th April 2015, 20:24 by dowan

Make orc easier? Easier than falling asleep on the tab key?

Thursday, 30th April 2015, 23:51 by kvaak

Arrhythmia wrote:saying gold generation is useful with gozag is akin to saying piety generation is useful with every other god

Other gods' piety doesn't allow you to ransack pre-existing dungeon features like gozag allows you to ransack non-gozag shops. Frankly I find this weird and probably bad.

Of course you could give zin a piety-costing "buy things from a shop" ability and it'd be pretty much the exact same thing.

dowan wrote:How did Gozag get into stable anyway? Lava orcs were a way better design! So was that half finished smith god. Efreets were a lot more fun as well.

Hmm, I seem to have an affinity for fire themed stuff...

Gozag is the pet project of a stubborn (but, unfortunately, influential) dev apparently oblivious/immune to criticism, constructive or otherwise. And yes LOs despite all their quirks were still nowhere near as dumb/broken as G.

Friday, 1st May 2015, 00:32 by Curio

I didn't liked Gozag from the looks of it, but then I thought to myself "Hey, at least try it before judging".
So I tried, and won with "easymode" MiFo just to try out Gozag.

Code:: Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.16.1 (tiles) character file. 2116627 Hadas the Conqueror (level 27, 273/273 HPs) Began as a Minotaur Fighter on Apr 24, 2015. Was an Initiate of Gozag. Escaped with the Orb ... and 4 runes on Apr 25, 2015! The game lasted 05:28:47 (86323 turns). Hadas the Conqueror (Minotaur Fighter) Turns: 86323, Time: 05:28:47 Health: 273/273 AC: 45 Str: 39 XL: 27 Magic: 26/26 EV: 29 Int: 10 God: Gozag Gold: 3072 SH: 21 Dex: 14 Spells: 0 memorised, 26 levels left rFire + + . SeeInvis + m - +9 double sword (freeze) rCold + + . Clarity . V - +10 plate armour {rF+} rNeg . . . SustAb . o - +5 shield "Shrienlimn" {Contam rPois rC+ SInv} rPois + Gourm . x - +2 hat {SInv} rElec + Spirit . u - +3 cloak of Flash {+Fly EV+4} rCorr + Warding . R - +0 pair of gloves "Meuhe" {rPois MR+ rCorr} rMut + Stasis . D - +2 pair of boots {run} MR ++++. q - amulet of resist mutation Stlth .......... Q - ring of the Mutiny {Contam rElec MR++ Str+9 Slay+3} b - ring "Siud" {rF+ rC+ MR- Str+3 Int+2 Stlth+} @: quick, incredibly resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely unstealthy A: retaliatory headbutt, horns 2 a: Potion Petition, Call Merchant, Bribe Branch, Renounce Religion, Evoke Flight 0: Orb of Zot }: 4/15 runes: barnacled, slimy, silver, gossamer You escaped. You worshipped Gozag. Gozag was noncommittal. You were not hungry. You visited 12 branches of the dungeon, and saw 65 of its levels. You also visited: Labyrinth, Ice Cave and Wizlab. You collected 33413 gold pieces. You spent 10905 gold pieces at shops. You paid 19436 gold pieces to Gozag. Inventory: Hand weapons m - a +9 double sword of freezing (weapon) Armour o - the +5 shield "Shrienlimn" (worn) {Contam rPois rC+ SInv} (You bought it in a shop on level 1 of the Vaults) It protects you from cold. It protects you from poison. It enhances your eyesight. It causes magical contamination when unequipped. u - the +3 cloak of Flash (worn) {+Fly EV+4} (You found it on level 6 of the Pits of Slime) It affects your evasion (+4). It lets you fly. x - a +2 hat of see invisible (worn) D - a +2 pair of boots of running (worn) R - the +0 pair of gloves "Meuhe" (worn) {rPois MR+ rCorr} (You bought it in a shop on level 3 of the Vaults) It protects you from poison. It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments. It protects you from acid and corrosion. V - a +10 plate armour of fire resistance (worn) Jewellery b - the ring "Siud" (left hand) {rF+ rC+ MR- Str+3 Int+2 Stlth+} (You bought it in a shop on level 5 of the Depths) [ring of protection from cold] It affects your strength (+3). It affects your intelligence (+2). It protects you from fire. It protects you from cold. It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments. It makes you more stealthy. q - an amulet of resist mutation (around neck) C - the amulet of the Four Winds {Clar rN+ MR+++} (You took it off a deep elf demonologist on level 3 of the Elven Halls) [amulet of clarity] It provides mental clarity. It protects you from negative energy. It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments. Q - the ring of the Mutiny (right hand) {Contam rElec MR++ Str+9 Slay+3} (You bought it in a shop on level 1 of the Elven Halls) [ring of slaying] It affects your strength (+9). It affects your accuracy and damage with ranged weapons and melee attacks (+3). It insulates you from electricity. It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments. It causes magical contamination when unequipped. Magical devices a - a wand of digging (1) l - a wand of cold (8) s - a wand of digging (22) t - a wand of invisibility (9) y - a wand of disintegration (13) F - a wand of teleportation (7) J - a wand of flame (18) S - a wand of paralysis (11) T - a wand of fire (5) Scrolls i - 6 scrolls of recharging j - 10 scrolls of blinking n - 14 scrolls of teleportation p - 3 scrolls of silence v - 2 scrolls of enchant armour A - 9 scrolls of identify E - 21 scrolls of remove curse I - 9 scrolls of fog L - 7 scrolls of magic mapping P - 3 scrolls of holy word W - 3 scrolls of fear Potions c - 2 potions of cure mutation f - a potion of cancellation g - 3 potions of might h - 15 potions of curing z - 6 potions of restore abilities B - 6 potions of agility M - 6 potions of haste O - 2 potions of resistance Z - a potion of invisibility Miscellaneous e - a lamp of fire K - a fan of gales Comestibles d - 31 bread rations r - a beef jerky Skills: O Level 27 Fighting O Level 27 Long Blades O Level 27 Armour O Level 27 Dodging - Level 15,0 Shields + Level 5,7 Evocations You had 26 spell levels left. You didn't know any spells. Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations Branches: Dungeon (15/15) Temple (1/1) D:7 Lair (8/8) D:10 Shoals (5/5) Lair:6 Spider (5/5) Lair:4 Slime (6/6) Lair:8 Orc (4/4) D:9 Elf (3/3) Orc:4 Vaults (5/5) D:14 Crypt (3/3) Vaults:2 Tomb (0/3) Crypt:3 Depths (5/5) D:15 Zot (5/5) Depths:5 Altars: Ashenzari Cheibriados Dithmenos Elyvilon Fedhas Gozag Kikubaaqudgha Makhleb Nemelex Xobeh Okawaru Qazlal Ru Sif Muna Trog Vehumet Xom Yredelemnul Zin The Shining One Beogh Jiyva Shops: D:8 [ D:9 % D:10 ( D:11 : D:12 ? D:13 = D:14 [ D:15 ( Orc:4 ![[: Elf:1 [(!=* Shoals:5 (( Vaults:1 [ Vaults:3 [! Vaults:4 }*}* Depths:1 ([ Depths:3 ( Depths:4 [* Depths:5 = Portals: Hell: Depths:1 Depths:2 Depths:3 Depths:4 Depths:5 Abyss: Depths:1 Depths:2 Depths:4 Pandemonium: Depths:3 Depths:5 Ziggurat: Depths:4 Annotations: Zot:5 1 exclusion Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations You reflexively headbutt those who attack you in melee. You have a pair of horns on your head. Message History You climb upwards. You sense a powerful magical force warping space. There is a stone staircase leading down here. A red devil comes into view. It is wielding a demon trident of freezing. An orc comes into view. It is wielding a club. The orc shouts! There is a stone staircase leading up here. You climb upwards. You sense a powerful magical force warping space. There is a stone staircase leading down here. There is an open door here. There is a stone staircase leading up here. You climb upwards. You sense a powerful magical force warping space. There is a stone staircase leading down here. Move the cursor to view the level map, or type ? for a list of commands. Returning to the game... There is an open door here. There is a staircase leading out of the dungeon here. You have escaped! .######.#....)....## ##.# .######.....#.#.##.###.### .............###.†..#..... .#######.##.#.#.###..#..## .# #.##.#..## #.##.(# .# #.#..#..# #.##..# .# ###'##### ##.##..# .### #...# #......# ...# #...# ######## .### ###...### .# #......@# .######.......#### .†.#.............### ### .#.'......?......'.# #.. .###.............#.# #.. .# ####....(..####.#####.. †# #.......# #........ .# ###...### #####.... .### #...# #..#? ...# #...# #..#? .### ###'## #.##? There were no monsters in sight! Vanquished Creatures the royal jelly (Slime:6) Dissolution (Slime:6) A seraph (D:9) Khufu (Crypt:1) 5 orbs of fire 6 ancient liches 2 greater mummies (Crypt:1) A pandemonium lord (Depths:5) Saint Roka (Orc:4) A caustic shrike (Depths:2) 5 Killer Klowns Mara (Vaults:4) 6 golden dragons A bone dragon (Crypt:3) 2 electric golems (Zot:5) 12 tentacled monstrosities 27 Orb Guardians 2 deep elf blademasters (Elf:3) 4 liches 5 titans A quicksilver dragon (shapeshifter) (Depths:3) Asterion (Elf:1) 2 quicksilver dragons (Vaults:5) A sphinx (shapeshifter) (Depths:3) 3 dire elephants 2 deep elf master archers (Elf:3) Polyphemus (Shoals:5) 26 acid blobs 5 ancient champions Rupert (Lair:5) 3 sphinxes 14 storm dragons 10 shadow dragons 2 draconian monks 7 tengu reavers Ilsuiw (Shoals:5) 14 azure jellies 2 revenants 10 fire giants 2 iron dragons (Vaults:5) 16 vault wardens 8 ghost moths 3 draconian scorchers 6 deep elf sorcerers Louise (Elf:1) 13 frost giants 2 angels 4 draconian knights An orc warlord (Vaults:4) A curse skull (Crypt:3) 18 ironheart preservers 9 emperor scorpions 4 draconian zealots A reaper (Crypt:2) 2 ghouls (Crypt:2) Jorgrun (Vaults:2) 7 draconian annihilators 4 draconian shifters 18 very ugly things 5 green draconians 2 salamander firebrands (Depths:3) 15 stone giants 8 grey draconians 11 war gargoyles 3 vampire knights (Crypt:3) 12 deep elf demonologists 2 draconian callers 4 black draconians A dire elephant (shapeshifter) (Vaults:4) 4 mottled draconians 9 deep elf annihilators 12 pale draconians 4 red draconians 6 white draconians 7 yellow draconians 12 purple draconians 11 ettins 3 deep elf death magi 5 eidola An ettin (shapeshifter) (Depths:3) Snorg (Lair:5) 2 merfolk impalers 2 merfolk javelineers 8 crystal guardians (Depths:3) 13 fire dragons A quicksilver dragon zombie (Crypt:1) 30 vault guards A blizzard demon (D:12) 4 deep elf high priests 9 death oozes 8 great orbs of eyes 19 yaktaur captains 5 jiangshi 6 death cobs A minotaur (Lab) A spriggan air mage (Depths:3) Harold (Lair:5) 12 ice dragons 6 hydras A catoblepas (shapeshifter) (Depths:3) Nessos (D:12) 7 rakshasas 9 statues (WizLab) A merfolk avatar (Shoals:2) A catoblepas (D:15) An alligator snapping turtle (Shoals:5) 3 satyrs 32 dancing weapons 8 deep troll shamans 4 merfolk aquamancers 6 centaur warriors 9 deep troll earth magi A tengu warrior (Depths:2) 5 vampire magi 14 ogre magi 2 shock serpents (shapeshifter) (Depths:3) A sun demon (Elf:3) 6 spriggan berserkers A titan zombie (D:15) 18 death yaks 7 orc high priests A storm dragon zombie (Crypt:3) 4 soul eaters 28 deep elf knights Erolcha (D:9) 35 skeletal warriors 2 hell beasts 29 deep trolls A shadow wraith (Vaults:5) 23 hell knights A golden dragon zombie (Depths:1) 5 wizards A ball lightning (Depths:3) 6 unseen horrors 2 iron trolls (Depths:2) A ghost moth zombie (Crypt:3) 8 giant orange brains A hill giant (shapeshifter) (Depths:3) 2 flayed ghosts A giant orange brain (shapeshifter) (Depths:3) 22 deep elf summoners 3 ice statues An ice devil (Depths:1) 8 sea snakes 2 obsidian statues (Depths:3) A shambling mangrove (D:10) 9 harpies 12 necromancers 15 ironbrand convokers A shadow dragon zombie (Crypt:3) A wolf spider zombie (Crypt:1) A lindwurm (Lair:5) 9 hill giants A sphinx zombie (Depths:1) 16 orb spiders 35 ugly things 2 water nymphs 16 orc knights 3 frost giant zombies (Depths:1) 2 stone giant zombies 17 deep elf conjurers 7 shining eyes 12 griffons 7 orc sorcerers 39 wolf spiders 5 cyclopes A griffon (shapeshifter) (Depths:3) A water nymph (shapeshifter) (Depths:3) 4 sixfirhies 4 fauns 2 rust devils (Depths:4) 2 frost giant skeletons 3 iron dragon skeletons 5 phantasmal warriors A cyclops (shapeshifter) (Depths:5) 14 manticores 24 moths of wrath 5 hornets Maurice (D:12) 8 sirens Joseph (D:9) 2 eyes of devastation 4 black mambas 6 smoke demons (Crypt:3) 21 vault sentinels 2 molten gargoyles (Depths:3) 3 torpor snails 15 spiny frogs A dire elephant skeleton (Crypt:3) An elephant (shapeshifter) (Vaults:5) 9 gargoyles 2 emperor scorpion zombies 20 elephants An orange demon (Depths:4) 16 demonic crawlers A mottled draconian zombie (Crypt:1) 3 elf zombies 3 fire drakes 57 yaktaurs An elf (shapeshifter) (Depths:5) 5 kobold demonologists 2 tengu conjurers 2 catoblepas zombies (Crypt:3) A komodo dragon (shapeshifter) (Depths:3) 8 large abominations 2 hellwings (Depths:5) 4 wind drakes 26 merfolk 2 spriggan druids (Lair:8) A hydra zombie (Crypt:3) 19 jumping spiders 7 deep elf priests 3 red devils 11 freezing wraiths 8 komodo dragons 2 blue devils 4 harpy zombies 2 minotaur zombies (Lab) A silent spectre (Crypt:2) Sonja (Shoals:1) 24 two-headed ogres A merfolk (shapeshifter) (Depths:3) 27 polar bears 24 blink frogs Prince Ribbit (D:4) A jumping spider (shapeshifter) (Elf:2) A raiju (shapeshifter) (D:14) The ghost of Siu the Poker, an average MfGl (D:4) 7 boulder beetles A deep troll zombie (Depths:1) A fire dragon zombie (Crypt:3) A raven (shapeshifter) (Vaults:3) 8 ravens 11 trolls 9 air elementals A griffon zombie (Shoals:1) 2 spriggan zombies (Depths:1) 6 snapping turtles A guardian serpent skeleton (Crypt:1) 2 ettin zombies A wandering mushroom (Lair:7) 2 centaur simulacra (D:14) 15 spriggans 134 slime creatures 10 wraiths An ettin skeleton (Crypt:3) 17 trapdoor spiders A fire dragon skeleton (Depths:1) 23 tarantellas 2 tarantellas (shapeshifter) (Depths:4) 51 redbacks A hippogriff (shapeshifter) (Vaults:3) 3 basilisks 5 shadows 2 ynoxinuls 14 water elementals 2 wyverns A flying skull (Crypt:1) 40 deep elf fighters 14 hippogriffs 8 vampires Eustachio (D:4) A black mamba skeleton (Crypt:3) 4 chaos spawn 8 golden eyes (Slime:6) 51 yaks 2 steam dragons (D:13) 7 fire elementals (Depths:3) A human simulacrum (Vaults:2) A hill giant skeleton (Depths:1) 13 vampire mosquitoes 4 hungry ghosts 34 wolves A mottled dragon (D:11) 49 deep elf magi 6 wargs Edmund (D:5) 3 insubstantial wisps (Depths:3) Menkaure (D:4) A soldier ant (D:13) A spiny frog zombie (Crypt:3) A mottled dragon (shapeshifter) (Depths:3) 17 water moccasins 7 hell hounds (Depths:4) 10 porcupines A sky beast (D:10) 78 orc warriors 8 wasps 6 eyes of draining 38 spiders A deep dwarf (shapeshifter) (Vaults:2) 4 black bears 2 manticore zombies 3 necrophages 2 phantoms 7 ice beasts 58 ogres An ogre (shapeshifter) (Depths:3) 4 boring beetles (shapeshifter) 7 boggarts An ettin simulacrum (Crypt:1) A centaur (shapeshifter) (Depths:3) 19 crocodiles 20 centaurs A hog zombie (Crypt:1) 2 boring beetles A fire crab zombie (Crypt:1) Sigmund (D:3) Duvessa (D:6) A boggart (shapeshifter) (Elf:1) 3 lost souls (Crypt:3) A vine stalker zombie (Crypt:1) A brain worm (Lair:7) A brain worm (shapeshifter) (Vaults:3) 2 elf skeletons 19 giant frogs 2 water moccasin zombies 5 big kobolds A gnoll sergeant (D:7) 7 earth elementals (Depths:3) 2 wyvern skeletons 12 scorpions A draconian skeleton (Crypt:2) A warg zombie (Crypt:2) 3 hippogriff zombies 11 killer bees 4 small abominations (Depths:4) 11 wights 4 electric eels Dowan (D:6) 11 crimson imps 3 goliath beetles (D:10) A gnoll shaman (D:3) 2 quasits 3 giant frog zombies 2 giant frog skeletons 33 jellies A centaur zombie (D:9) 10 hounds A human skeleton (Crypt:3) An iron imp (Zot:5) 52 orc wizards 37 orc priests 3 centaur skeletons 13 iguanas Natasha (thrice) (D:5) 12 worker ants 10 hell rats A killer bee zombie (D:10) 15 sheep A dwarf zombie (Crypt:1) Ijyb (D:3) A big kobold skeleton (Crypt:1) Terence (D:2) A mummy (Crypt:1) Robin (D:4) 36 river rats 19 adders 22 gnolls 3 white imps 3 shadow imps A giant mite (D:2) A goliath beetle zombie (Crypt:1) 4 worms 3 ufetubi An adder zombie (Crypt:2) 8 giant geckos 2 oozes 301 orcs 2 ball pythons 30 bats A bat skeleton (D:7) 45 goblins 29 hobgoblins 19 jackals 12 quokkas A ball python skeleton (Crypt:2) 3 giant cockroaches A giant gecko skeleton (D:6) 10 giant newts A hobgoblin zombie (Crypt:2) 3 jackal skeletons 53 kobolds 14 rats A rat skeleton (Crypt:2) 24 ballistomycetes 2 crawling corpses (Depths:1) 12 plants (D:8) 3420 creatures vanquished. Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills) A tengu reaver (Depths:1) A minotaur (Depths:1) A merfolk impaler (Shoals:5) 3 merfolk javelineers (Shoals:5) A hydra (Lair:6) A merfolk avatar (Shoals:3) 2 catoblepae 3 death yaks A hell knight (Depths:5) 6 sea snakes A necromancer (Depths:1) A harpy (shapeshifter) (Depths:1) A harpy (Shoals:5) A cyclops (Shoals:3) 4 griffons 4 manticores An orb spider (Spider:5) A faun (Shoals:3) 7 ugly things 4 sirens 3 water nymphs A frost giant skeleton (Depths:1) An elf zombie (Depths:1) A spriggan zombie (Depths:1) A spiny frog (Lair:6) A yaktaur zombie (Depths:1) 12 merfolk An ettin zombie (Depths:1) 8 snapping turtles A fire dragon skeleton (Depths:1) An ettin skeleton (Depths:1) 7 water elementals An elf skeleton (Depths:1) 6 centaurs A sheep (Shoals:3) A plant (Shoals:5) 92 creatures vanquished. Vanquished Creatures (others) A fire giant (Depths:2) A very ugly thing (Depths:3) 3 merfolk impalers A merfolk javelineer (Shoals:5) A merfolk avatar (Shoals:3) 4 merfolk aquamancers (Shoals:5) 8 ball lightnings (Depths:3) 2 ugly things (Depths:3) 2 necromancers (Elf:1) A moth of wrath (Zot:5) A salamander (shapeshifter) (Depths:3) A large abomination (Elf:1) 7 drowned souls A siren (Shoals:5) A gargoyle (Depths:3) 2 yaktaurs (Vaults:4) 7 merfolk A wind drake (Depths:3) 2 deep elf magi An air elemental (Depths:3) 8 water elementals 2 fire elementals (Depths:3) A deep elf fighter (Elf:2) A mottled dragon (shapeshifter) (Vaults:5) A spider (Elf:3) An orc warrior (Vaults:5) 2 boggarts 9 lost souls 2 ogres An elf skeleton (Depths:1) An elf zombie (Elf:1) A jelly (D:10) An orc wizard (Orc:4) A giant mite (Elf:3) 2 orcs (Vaults:5) 2 kobolds (D:8) A quokka (D:8) 4 giant spores 11 fungi 7 plants 107 creatures vanquished. Grand Total: 3619 creatures vanquished Notes Turn | Place | Note -------------------------------------------------------------- 0 | D:1 | Hadas, the Minotaur Fighter, began the quest for the Orb. 0 | D:1 | Reached XP level 1. HP: 19/19 MP: 1/1 105 | D:1 | Reached XP level 2. HP: 26/26 MP: 1/1 495 | D:1 | Reached skill level 4 in Long Blades 687 | D:2 | Reached XP level 3. HP: 26/31 MP: 2/2 1022 | D:2 | Reached skill level 5 in Long Blades 1257 | D:2 | Reached XP level 4. HP: 39/39 MP: 2/2 1570 | D:2 | Noticed Terence 1576 | D:2 | Killed Terence 1945 | D:3 | Noticed Sigmund 1955 | D:3 | Killed Sigmund 1955 | D:3 | Reached skill level 5 in Armour 1955 | D:3 | Reached XP level 5. HP: 18/45 MP: 2/2 2198 | D:3 | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet. 2288 | D:3 | Reached skill level 6 in Armour 2460 | D:3 | Noticed Ijyb 2471 | D:3 | Killed Ijyb 2474 | D:3 | Found a sacrificial altar of Ru. 2486 | D:3 | Reached XP level 6. HP: 31/51 MP: 3/3 2715 | D:3 | Reached skill level 7 in Armour 3121 | D:3 | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari. 3124 | D:3 | Found an iron altar of Okawaru. 3181 | D:3 | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados. 3325 | D:4 | Noticed Eustachio 3340 | D:4 | Reached skill level 5 in Shields 3378 | D:4 | Killed Eustachio 3378 | D:4 | Reached XP level 7. HP: 57/57 MP: 3/3 3753 | D:4 | Noticed Siu's ghost (average MfGl) 3766 | D:4 | Killed Siu's ghost 4023 | D:4 | Noticed Prince Ribbit 4027 | D:4 | Noticed Robin 4053 | D:4 | Killed Prince Ribbit 4053 | D:4 | Reached skill level 8 in Long Blades 4053 | D:4 | Reached XP level 8. HP: 61/64 MP: 3/3 4065 | D:4 | Killed Robin 4131 | D:4 | Noticed Menkaure 4146 | D:4 | Killed Menkaure 4146 | D:4 | Reached skill level 9 in Long Blades 4560 | D:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon 4902 | D:5 | Got a warped dagger 4951 | D:5 | Noticed Edmund 4964 | D:5 | Killed Edmund 4993 | D:5 | Noticed Natasha 4999 | D:5 | Killed Natasha 5029 | D:5 | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting 5126 | D:5 | Reached skill level 10 in Long Blades 5146 | D:5 | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin. 5207 | D:5 | Noticed Natasha 5211 | D:5 | Killed Natasha 5302 | D:5 | Noticed Natasha 5305 | D:5 | Killed Natasha 5365 | D:6 | Got a polished whip 5379 | D:6 | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul. 5381 | D:6 | Noticed Duvessa 5383 | D:6 | Noticed Dowan 5390 | D:6 | Killed Duvessa 5397 | D:6 | Killed Dowan 5987 | D:6 | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari. 6019 | D:6 | Reached XP level 9. HP: 69/78 MP: 4/4 6076 | D:6 | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog. 6507 | D:7 | Found a shadowy altar of Dithmenos. 6557 | D:7 | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple. 6636 | Temple | Entered the Ecumenical Temple 6665 | Temple | Became a worshipper of Gozag Ym Sagoz the Greedy 6955 | D:7 | Found an iron altar of Okawaru. 6988 | D:7 | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting 7493 | D:7 | Reached skill level 11 in Fighting 7819 | D:8 | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon. 7995 | D:8 | Found a shimmering altar of Xom. 8052 | D:8 | Reached XP level 10. HP: 95/95 MP: 4/4 8356 | D:8 | Found Bakluaph's Armour Emporium. 8944 | D:9 | Found Xemohus' Food Shoppe. 8950 | D:9 | Noticed Joseph 8961 | D:9 | Killed Joseph 9384 | D:9 | Reached skill level 10 in Shields 9643 | D:9 | Noticed Erolcha 9653 | D:9 | Paralysed by Erolcha for 4 turns 9659 | D:9 | Killed Erolcha 9798 | D:9 | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines. 10467 | D:10 | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon 10684 | D:10 | Noticed a shambling mangrove 10684 | D:10 | a giant spore changed into a shambling mangrove 10699 | D:10 | Killed a shambling mangrove 10699 | D:10 | Reached skill level 12 in Shields 11024 | D:10 | Reached XP level 11. HP: 99/102 MP: 4/4 11171 | D:8 | Bought a +1 swamp dragon armour for 798 gold pieces 11248 | D:10 | Found a staircase to the Lair. 11248 | D:10 | Noticed an elephant 11605 | D:9 | Killed an elephant 11605 | D:9 | Reached skill level 13 in Shields 11704 | D:10 | Noticed a hill giant 11711 | D:10 | Killed a hill giant 11777 | D:10 | Found Liarodgh's Weapon Boutique. 11834 | D:10 | Noticed a hill giant 11841 | D:10 | Killed a hill giant 11854 | D:10 | Reached skill level 14 in Shields 11919 | D:10 | Noticed a hill giant 11931 | D:10 | Killed a hill giant 12906 | Lair:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts 12986 | Lair:1 | Reached skill level 15 in Shields 13751 | Lair:2 | Found a labyrinth entrance. 13761 | Lab | Entered a labyrinth 14545 | Lab | Noticed a minotaur 14550 | Lab | Killed a minotaur 14591 | Lab | Got a translucent ivory ring 14591 | Lab | Got a vibrating platinum ring 14596 | Lab | Got an ancient hand axe 14679 | Lair:2 | Identified the +6 dagger "Embalmer" {venom, rC- Dex+6} (You found it on level 5 of the Dungeon) 14681 | Lair:2 | Identified the +8 whip "Gyedghynn" {slash, rN+ Int+5 Dex+4} (You found it on level 6 of the Dungeon) 14683 | Lair:2 | Identified the +3 hand axe "Widowmaker" {chop, rElec Dex+4} (You found it in a labyrinth) 14732 | Lair:2 | Reached XP level 12. HP: 110/110 MP: 5/5 14814 | D:10 | Bought the +8 long sword "Avvooc" {vamp, +Rage +Fly rF- rN+} for 904 gold pieces 14829 | D:10 | Identified the ring of Stievap {-Cast rElec rC+ MR+ Str+4 Dex-4} (You found it in a labyrinth) 14830 | D:10 | Identified the ring of Modesty {rElec rPois MR+ Str-5} (You found it in a labyrinth) 16334 | Lair:4 | Found a hole to the Spider Nest. 17547 | Lair:5 | Noticed Snorg 17568 | Lair:5 | Killed Snorg 17778 | Lair:5 | Noticed a four-headed hydra 17790 | Lair:5 | Killed a ten-headed hydra 17950 | Lair:5 | Reached skill level 15 in Fighting 18166 | Lair:5 | Reached XP level 13. HP: 127/127 MP: 5/5 18254 | Lair:5 | Noticed Rupert 18255 | Lair:5 | Noticed Harold 18278 | Lair:5 | Killed Rupert 18278 | Lair:5 | Reached skill level 16 in Fighting 18285 | Lair:5 | Killed Harold 19021 | Lair:6 | Found a staircase to the Shoals. 19149 | Lair:6 | Reached skill level 17 in Fighting 19315 | Lair:6 | Found a frozen archway. 19375 | IceCv | Entered an ice cave 19517 | IceCv | Reached skill level 18 in Fighting 20134 | IceCv | Noticed a frost giant 20170 | IceCv | Killed a frost giant 20170 | IceCv | Reached skill level 19 in Fighting 20312 | IceCv | Reached XP level 14. HP: 143/146 MP: 5/5 21310 | Lair:7 | Reached skill level 10 in Armour 22436 | Lair:8 | Entered Level 8 of the Lair of Beasts 22804 | Lair:8 | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits. 22805 | Lair:8 | Found a viscous altar of Jiyva. 23332 | Lair:8 | Got a spiked ring mail 23353 | Lair:8 | Got a citrine-encrusted chain mail 23367 | Lair:8 | Identified the +0 chain mail of Sikyno {rF- Regen+ MP-9 Str+3 Int+5} (You found it on level 8 of the Lair of Beasts) 23379 | Lair:8 | Identified the +2 ring mail of the Prince of Darkness {-Tele rF+ MP+9 Slay+3} (You found it on level 8 of the Lair of Beasts) 24589 | D:9 | Bought 4 fruits for 78 gold pieces 24589 | D:9 | Bought 2 fruits for 39 gold pieces 24589 | D:9 | Bought a beef jerky for 19 gold pieces 24589 | D:9 | Bought a beef jerky for 19 gold pieces 24589 | D:9 | Bought 3 fruits for 58 gold pieces 24762 | D:11 | Noticed a skeletal warrior 24766 | D:11 | Noticed a skeletal warrior 24766 | D:11 | Noticed a skeletal warrior 24766 | D:11 | Noticed a skeletal warrior 24767 | D:11 | Noticed a skeletal warrior 24775 | D:11 | Killed a skeletal warrior 24793 | D:10 | Killed a skeletal warrior 24793 | D:10 | Reached XP level 15. HP: 77/152 MP: 6/6 24947 | D:10 | Killed a skeletal warrior 24959 | D:10 | Killed a skeletal warrior 25236 | D:11 | Found Hewecom's Book Boutique. 25375 | D:11 | Reached skill level 15 in Armour 25628 | D:11 | Killed a skeletal warrior 25849 | D:12 | Found Strol's Magic Scroll Shop. 25952 | D:12 | Noticed Maurice 25961 | D:12 | Noticed Nessos 25974 | D:12 | Killed Nessos 26013 | D:12 | Killed Maurice 26846 | D:13 | Found Mof Unla's Jewellery Shop. 27504 | D:14 | Found Bomotoew's Armour Boutique. 27553 | D:14 | Found a gate to the Vaults. 27943 | D:15 | Entered Level 15 of the Dungeon 27943 | D:15 | Found Onu Theng's Antique Weapon Boutique. 27967 | D:15 | Found a staircase to the Depths. 29870 | D:14 | Bought a +2 pair of boots of stealth for 279 gold pieces 29956 | D:12 | Bought a scroll of enchant armour for 90 gold pieces 29956 | D:12 | Bought a scroll of enchant armour for 90 gold pieces 29956 | D:12 | Bought a scroll of magic mapping for 42 gold pieces 30150 | Orc:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Orcish Mines 30385 | Orc:1 | Found Koph's Food Emporium. 30665 | Orc:1 | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh. 31837 | Orc:4 | Entered Level 4 of the Orcish Mines 32447 | Orc:4 | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh. 32527 | Orc:4 | Reached XP level 16. HP: 95/160 MP: 6/6 32591 | Orc:4 | Found Haodil's Distillery. 32613 | Orc:4 | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 55 gold pieces 32613 | Orc:4 | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 55 gold pieces 32613 | Orc:4 | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 55 gold pieces 32619 | Orc:4 | Found Arurr's Armour Shoppe. 32642 | Orc:4 | Bought a +0 hat of see invisible for 176 gold pieces 32946 | Orc:4 | Noticed Saint Roka 32961 | Orc:4 | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh. 32990 | Orc:4 | Killed Saint Roka 32990 | Orc:4 | Reached skill level 15 in Long Blades 33440 | Orc:4 | Found a staircase to the Elven Halls. 33817 | Orc:4 | Found Pric's Book Shoppe. 33921 | Orc:4 | Found Xeablets' Antique Armour Emporium. 34240 | Orc:1 | Bought a bread ration for 55 gold pieces 34240 | Orc:1 | Bought a bread ration for 55 gold pieces 34240 | Orc:1 | Bought a meat ration for 55 gold pieces 34240 | Orc:1 | Bought a bread ration for 55 gold pieces 34240 | Orc:1 | Bought a meat ration for 55 gold pieces 34240 | Orc:1 | Bought a bread ration for 55 gold pieces 34240 | Orc:1 | Bought a meat ration for 55 gold pieces 34240 | Orc:1 | Bought a slice of pizza for 16 gold pieces 34240 | Orc:1 | Bought a meat ration for 55 gold pieces 34349 | Elf:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Elven Halls 34394 | Elf:1 | Noticed Louise 34422 | Elf:1 | Killed Louise 34782 | Elf:1 | Found Pynukk's Antique Weapon Emporium. 34786 | Elf:1 | Found Omoaniong's Armour Shoppe. 34821 | Elf:1 | Found Qiamifo's Distillery. 34823 | Elf:1 | Noticed Asterion 34839 | Elf:1 | Killed Asterion 34843 | Elf:1 | Bought a potion of heal wounds for 80 gold pieces 34843 | Elf:1 | Bought a potion of haste for 160 gold pieces 34926 | Elf:1 | Noticed a Brimstone Fiend 34932 | Elf:1 | Noticed a Shadow Fiend 34936 | Elf:1 | Noticed a Shadow Fiend 35251 | Elf:1 | Identified Uchat's Disquisition on Unholy Magic 35289 | Elf:1 | Found Lotaal's Jewellery Shoppe. 35305 | Elf:1 | Bought the ring of the Mutiny {Contam rElec MR++ Str+9 Slay+3} for 1452 gold pieces 35324 | Elf:1 | Found Guap's General Store. 35505 | Elf:1 | Identified the Almanac of Calling 36162 | Elf:2 | Found a huge runed gate. 36163 | Elf:2 | Found a huge runed gate. 36163 | Elf:2 | Found a huge runed gate. 36304 | Elf:2 | Reached XP level 17. HP: 160/168 MP: 6/6 37581 | Elf:2 | Reached skill level 20 in Long Blades 37607 | Elf:3 | Entered Level 3 of the Elven Halls 39675 | Elf:3 | Got a dazzling leather armour 39710 | Elf:3 | Identified the +0 leather armour of the Black Moon {-Tele Dex+9} (You took it off a deep elf demonologist on level 3 of the Elven Halls) 39737 | Elf:3 | Identified Clumia Rieb's Disquisition on the Supportive Mountains 39781 | Elf:3 | Identified a scroll of acquirement 39784 | Elf:3 | Got a bloodstained large shield 39795 | Elf:3 | Identified the +1 large shield of Midwinter {rF- Regen+ Str+4} (You acquired it on level 3 of the Elven Halls) 40239 | Spider:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Spider Nest 40442 | Spider:1 | Identified the Volume of Conjuration 40497 | Spider:1 | Reached XP level 18. HP: 176/176 MP: 7/7 41291 | Spider:1 | Reached skill level 21 in Armour 43132 | Spider:3 | Got a fine dagger 43133 | Spider:3 | Identified the +7 dagger of Fate {pierce, +Inv rF- rC- rN++ Dex+2} (You found it on level 3 of the Spider Nest) 43358 | Spider:4 | Reached skill level 22 in Armour 43909 | Spider:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Spider Nest 45428 | Spider:5 | Reached skill level 23 in Armour 46147 | Spider:5 | Got a gossamer rune of Zot 46565 | D:12 | Bought a scroll of brand weapon for 240 gold pieces 46740 | Shoals:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Shoals 46857 | Shoals:1 | Noticed Sonja 46863 | Shoals:1 | Killed Sonja 47223 | Shoals:1 | Reached XP level 19. HP: 183/183 MP: 7/7 47360 | Shoals:2 | Got a slimy robe 47416 | Shoals:2 | You fall through a shaft for 2 floors! 47696 | Shoals:2 | Got a brightly glowing leather armour 47712 | Shoals:2 | Identified the +2 leather armour of the Saviour {SInv} (You found it on level 2 of the Shoals) 47729 | Shoals:2 | Identified the +3 robe "Poawn" {MP+9 Dex+4} (You found it on level 2 of the Shoals) 49606 | Shoals:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Shoals 49907 | Shoals:5 | Noticed Polyphemus 49915 | Shoals:5 | Killed Polyphemus 50016 | Shoals:5 | Found Urghuj's Antique Weapon Emporium. 50075 | Shoals:5 | Noticed Ilsuiw 50117 | Shoals:5 | Killed Ilsuiw 50263 | Shoals:5 | Got a barnacled rune of Zot 50625 | Shoals:5 | Identified the Incunabulum of Hexes 50915 | Shoals:5 | Found Siag's Weapon Emporium. 51506 | Depths:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Depths 51521 | Depths:1 | Found a one-way gate to the infinite horrors of the Abyss. 51537 | Depths:1 | Found a gateway to Hell. 51783 | Depths:1 | Found Frowizim's Armour Emporium. 51975 | Depths:1 | Found Siussuh's Weapon Emporium. 52180 | Depths:1 | Identified the Volume of Evil 52405 | Depths:1 | Found a sparkling altar of Nemelex Xobeh. 52848 | Depths:1 | Bought a +2 pair of gloves of dexterity for 494 gold pieces 52973 | Depths:2 | Noticed a caustic shrike 52999 | Depths:2 | Killed a caustic shrike 52999 | Depths:2 | Reached XP level 20. HP: 95/202 MP: 7/7 53401 | Vaults:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Vaults 53407 | Vaults:1 | Found Soibipt's Antique Armour Boutique. 53412 | Vaults:1 | Bought a runed cloak for 162 gold pieces 53412 | Vaults:1 | Bought a smoking shield for 342 gold pieces 53422 | Vaults:1 | Identified the +5 shield "Shrienlimn" {Contam rPois rC+ SInv} (You bought it in a shop on level 1 of the Vaults) 53461 | Vaults:1 | Bought a runed cloak for 162 gold pieces 53814 | Vaults:1 | Bought a pair of runed gloves for 162 gold pieces 55120 | Vaults:2 | Reached skill level 24 in Fighting 55124 | Vaults:2 | Noticed Jorgrun 55151 | Vaults:2 | Killed Jorgrun 55276 | Vaults:2 | Found a staircase to the Crypt. 55737 | Vaults:3 | Found Pyruown's Antique Armour Shoppe. 55741 | Vaults:3 | Bought a pair of embroidered boots for 175 gold pieces 55741 | Vaults:3 | Bought a pair of shimmering gloves for 370 gold pieces 55758 | Vaults:3 | Identified the +0 pair of gloves "Meuhe" {rPois MR+ rCorr} (You bought it in a shop on level 3 of the Vaults) 55768 | Vaults:3 | Identified a +2 pair of boots of running (You bought it in a shop on level 3 of the Vaults) 56903 | Vaults:3 | Reached skill level 25 in Fighting 57332 | Vaults:3 | Identified the Compendium of Helpful Evil Magic 57412 | Vaults:3 | Reached XP level 21. HP: 218/218 MP: 8/8 57712 | Vaults:3 | Found Syva's Distillery. 57726 | Vaults:3 | Bought a potion of haste for 140 gold pieces 58118 | Vaults:4 | Reached skill level 1 in Dodging 58305 | Vaults:4 | Found Pnecw's General Store. 58311 | Vaults:4 | Found Tumueh's Gadget Boutique. 58344 | Vaults:4 | Found Kamusepeepn's General Store. 58350 | Vaults:4 | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging 58437 | Vaults:4 | Found a magical portal. 58444 | WizLab | Entered Iskenderun's Mystic Tower 58712 | WizLab | Reached skill level 26 in Fighting 59039 | WizLab | Got a dazzling rapier 59055 | WizLab | Identified Iskenderun's Collected Works on Floating Battle Magic 59059 | WizLab | Identified Iskenderun's Catalogue of Blows and Bruises (You found it in a wizard's laboratory) 59093 | WizLab | Identified the Almanac of Igneous Damage Dealing (You found it in a wizard's laboratory) 59535 | Vaults:4 | Noticed Mara 59544 | Vaults:4 | Noticed Hadas' illusion 59557 | Vaults:4 | Killed Mara 59709 | Vaults:4 | Bought a scroll of teleportation for 33 gold pieces 59709 | Vaults:4 | Bought a bread ration for 55 gold pieces 60034 | Vaults:4 | Identified the +5 rapier "Zugiurem" {pierce, +Inv rC++ Int+2 Dex-2} (You found it in a wizard's laboratory) 60040 | Vaults:4 | Found Rakovo's Gadget Shoppe. 60324 | Vaults:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Vaults 60407 | Vaults:5 | Reached skill level 27 in Fighting 60452 | Vaults:5 | Reached XP level 22. HP: 147/233 MP: 8/8 60894 | Vaults:5 | Lost intelligence. 62009 | Vaults:5 | Noticed an ancient lich 62029 | Vaults:5 | Killed an ancient lich 62177 | Vaults:5 | Got a silver rune of Zot 62410 | Vaults:5 | Reached XP level 23. HP: 240/240 MP: 8/8 62424 | Vaults:5 | Got a twitching silver ring 62509 | Vaults:5 | Identified the ring of Incredulity {rC+ Dex+4} (You took it off a vault guard on level 5 of the Vaults) 62624 | Vaults:5 | Reached skill level 27 in Armour 62661 | Vaults:5 | Gained mutation: You passively map a small area around you. [potion of beneficial mutation] 62836 | Vaults:5 | Got a brightly glowing marble ring 62881 | Vaults:5 | Identified the ring of the Lily {Ice rPois Str+2} (You took it off a vault guard on level 5 of the Vaults) 63131 | Vaults:5 | Reached skill level 10 in Dodging 64305 | Depths:2 | Lost intelligence. 65421 | Depths:3 | Found a one-way gate leading to the halls of Pandemonium. 65527 | Depths:3 | Identified the Tome of the Assistive Compass 65547 | Depths:3 | Identified a +2 pair of boots of running (You found it on level 3 of the Depths) 65619 | Depths:3 | Found Smicegesh's Antique Weapon Shoppe. 65774 | Depths:3 | Reached skill level 15 in Dodging 65991 | Depths:2 | Noticed a lich 65995 | Depths:2 | Killed a lich 66206 | Depths:2 | Reached XP level 24. HP: 244/249 MP: 9/9 66786 | Depths:4 | Found Thoro's Antique Armour Boutique. 66793 | Depths:4 | Bought a smelly chain mail for 408 gold pieces 66811 | Depths:4 | Identified the +6 chain mail "Obaozusm" {rPois rC- MR+ Dex+5} (You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Depths) 67151 | Depths:4 | Found a gateway to a ziggurat. 67632 | Depths:4 | Found a runed door. 68287 | Depths:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Depths 68363 | Depths:5 | Found Shru Hiu's Jewellery Shop. 68717 | Depths:5 | Bought the ring "Siud" {rF+ rC+ MR- Str+3 Int+2 Stlth+} for 1154 gold pieces 69294 | Depths:5 | Found a gate to the Realm of Zot. 69376 | Depths:5 | Got a bloodstained demon whip 69380 | Depths:5 | Identified the cursed +1 demon whip of the Wasp {vamp, rF+ Int-3 Dex+4} (You found it on level 5 of the Depths) 70010 | Slime:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Pits of Slime 70060 | Slime:1 | Found a viscous altar of Jiyva. 70288 | Slime:1 | Reached XP level 25. HP: 257/257 MP: 9/9 71768 | Slime:6 | Entered Level 6 of the Pits of Slime 71810 | Slime:6 | Noticed Dissolution 71829 | Slime:6 | Killed Dissolution 72127 | Slime:6 | Noticed the royal jelly 72136 | Slime:6 | Found a viscous altar of Jiyva. 72533 | Slime:6 | Killed the royal jelly 72910 | Slime:6 | Got an amber-encrusted scale mail 72937 | Slime:6 | Identified the Papyrus of Bewitchment 72940 | Slime:6 | Got a slimy rune of Zot 72958 | Slime:6 | Identified the +2 scale mail of Crex {Str+4} (You found it on level 6 of the Pits of Slime) 73011 | Slime:6 | Got a scorched iron ring 73041 | Slime:6 | Got a bronze plate armour 73052 | Slime:6 | Identified the -3 plate armour "Khes" {rElec rPois rF-} (You found it on level 6 of the Pits of Slime) 73060 | Slime:6 | Identified the ring "Qutu" {SustAb +Inv} (You found it on level 6 of the Pits of Slime) 74182 | Crypt:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Crypt 74472 | Crypt:1 | Noticed Khufu 75161 | Crypt:1 | Killed Khufu 75349 | Crypt:2 | Reached XP level 26. HP: 188/266 MP: 9/9 75866 | Crypt:3 | Entered Level 3 of the Crypt 76557 | Crypt:3 | Noticed an ancient lich 76562 | Crypt:3 | Gained mutation: Armour fits poorly on your strangely shaped body. [a cacodemon] 76564 | Crypt:3 | Killed an ancient lich 76870 | Crypt:3 | Got a shimmering golden ring 76870 | Crypt:3 | Got a warped lead ring 76882 | Crypt:3 | Identified the ring of Fyepui {rPois rN+} (You found it on level 3 of the Crypt) 76886 | Crypt:3 | Identified the ring "Koiduym" {Contam rPois rN+ MR+ Str+3 Dex+4} (You found it on level 3 of the Crypt) 77218 | Crypt:3 | Found a staircase to the Tomb. 77219 | Crypt:3 | Noticed an ancient lich 77253 | Crypt:3 | Killed an ancient lich 77302 | Crypt:3 | Noticed an ancient lich 78458 | Orc:4 | Bought 2 potions of haste for 220 gold pieces 78458 | Orc:4 | Bought a potion of curing for 33 gold pieces 78458 | Orc:4 | Bought a potion of haste for 110 gold pieces 78877 | Vaults:4 | Bought a phantom mirror for 540 gold pieces 78931 | Vaults:4 | Bought a phantom mirror for 600 gold pieces 78931 | Vaults:4 | Bought a phantom mirror for 600 gold pieces 79197 | Lair:2 | Lost mutation: Armour fits poorly on your strangely shaped body. [potion of cure mutation] 79197 | Lair:2 | Lost mutation: You passively map a small area around you. [potion of cure mutation] 79482 | Zot:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Realm of Zot 79506 | Zot:1 | Noticed an orb of fire 79527 | Zot:1 | Killed an orb of fire 79829 | Zot:1 | Got a bronze plate armour 80167 | Zot:1 | Identified the +9 plate armour "Cineol" {Contam +Inv rElec Str+3 SInv} (You found it on level 1 of the Realm of Zot) 81453 | Zot:2 | Reached XP level 27. HP: 273/273 MP: 10/10 82149 | Zot:2 | Reached skill level 27 in Long Blades 82550 | Zot:3 | Got a slimy scale mail 82551 | Zot:3 | Identified the +7 scale mail "Niereriedi" {Str+2} (You found it on level 3 of the Realm of Zot) 83767 | Zot:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Realm of Zot 84270 | Zot:5 | Noticed an ancient lich 84272 | Zot:5 | Noticed an orb of fire 84273 | Zot:5 | Noticed an orb of fire 84286 | Zot:5 | Killed an orb of fire 84288 | Zot:5 | Gained mutation: You are dopey. (Int -2) [an orb of fire] 84289 | Zot:5 | Gained mutation: Armour fits poorly on your strangely shaped body. [an orb of fire] 84302 | Zot:5 | Killed an ancient lich 84317 | Zot:5 | Killed an orb of fire 84503 | Zot:5 | Noticed an ancient lich 84512 | Zot:5 | Killed an ancient lich 84737 | Zot:5 | Noticed an orb of fire 84747 | Zot:5 | Gained mutation: You are frail (-10% HP). [an orb of fire] 84749 | Zot:5 | Gained mutation: You are clumsy. (Dex -2) [an orb of fire] 84752 | Zot:5 | Gained mutation: You have difficulty communicating with the divine. [an orb of fire] 84755 | Zot:5 | Killed an orb of fire 84775 | Zot:5 | Lost mutation: You are clumsy. (Dex -2) [potion of cure mutation] 84775 | Zot:5 | Lost mutation: You are dopey. (Int -2) [potion of cure mutation] 84775 | Zot:5 | Lost mutation: Armour fits poorly on your strangely shaped body. [potion of cure mutation] 84775 | Zot:5 | Lost mutation: You have difficulty communicating with the divine. [potion of cure mutation] 84775 | Zot:5 | Lost mutation: You are frail (-10% HP). [potion of cure mutation] 84783 | Zot:5 | Noticed an orb of fire 84808 | Zot:5 | Killed an orb of fire 84841 | Zot:5 | Noticed an ancient lich 84844 | Zot:5 | Killed an ancient lich 85260 | Zot:5 | Got the Orb of Zot 85444 | Depths:5 | Noticed Elujurabucw the pandemonium lord 85465 | Depths:5 | Killed Elujurabucw the pandemonium lord 85581 | Depths:3 | Reached skill level 27 in Dodging 85623 | Depths:2 | Reached skill level 1 in Evocations 85829 | D:9 | Noticed a seraph 85856 | D:9 | Noticed Ghyl the pandemonium lord 85857 | D:9 | Killed a seraph 85857 | D:9 | Reached skill level 5 in Evocations 86323 | D:$ | Escaped with the Orb! Action | 1- 3 | 4- 6 | 7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 | 19-21 | 22-24 | 25-27 || total -------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++------- Melee: Long sword | 60 | | 281 | 983 | 2489 | 1552 | 2431 | 2285 | 560 || 10641 Short sword | 2 | 212 | 138 | | | | | | || 352 Unarmed | | 6 | | | | | | | || 6 Dagger | | | | 27 | | | | | || 27 Triple sword | | | | | | 144 | | | || 144 Great sword | | | | | | 243 | | | || 243 Demon blade | | | | | | | | | 667 || 667 Double sword | | | | | | | | | 954 || 954 Invok: Call Merchant | | | | 1 | 5 | | 3 | 3 | || 12 Potion Petition | | | | | 1 | | | | || 1 Bribe Branch | | | | | | 1 | | | || 1 Abil: Evoke Berserk Rag | | | | | 1 | | | | || 1 Evoke Flight | | | | | | | | 1 | || 1 Evoke: Wand | | 1 | 6 | 22 | 37 | 24 | 6 | 20 | 16 || 132 Sack of spiders | | | | | | 5 | | | || 5 Lamp of fire | | | | | | 1 | | | || 1 Phial of floods | | | | | | 1 | | | || 1 Phantom mirror | | | | | | | | | 4 || 4 Use: Scroll | 6 | 2 | 6 | 13 | 11 | 16 | 14 | 19 | 24 || 111 Potion | | 2 | 2 | 6 | 16 | 12 | 3 | 7 | 19 || 67 Stab: Invisible | | 2 | 1 | | 5 | 8 | | | || 16 Distracted | | | | 2 | 11 | 16 | 19 | 7 | || 55 Fleeing | | | | | 2 | | | | || 2 Paralysed | | | | | | 1 | | | || 1 Petrified | | | | | | | | 1 | || 1 Held in net/web | | | | | | | | | 1 || 1 Eat: Chunk | 1 | 7 | 10 | | | | | | || 18 Fruit | | | 3 | 1 | 17 | 3 | 18 | 4 | 4 || 50 Beef jerky | | | 1 | | 2 | 2 | | 3 | || 8 Pizza | | | 1 | | 1 | 2 | | 1 | 1 || 6 Meat ration | | | 1 | 6 | 6 | 9 | 4 | 5 | 2 || 33 Royal jelly | | | | 3 | 1 | | | 1 | || 5 Bread ration | | | | | 1 | | 2 | 1 | 7 || 11

Well... Here's numbered list on abilities:
1) Passive "gold distraction" gimmick is barely noticeable and mostly irrelevant. also it step on a toes of a more thorough passive ability of a Ru.
2)I liked earning gold through Mida's touch, but the lack of chunks and ways to counter it (Food shops) seem clumsy.
3)I used potion petition once for free and that's it. I know it's only good ability, but my Minotaur was powerful enough/had enough consumables and this ability don't belong here thematically. Yup, it's a thing of preference. I can't wrap my head around this. Why god of gold and greed gives effects of a potions directly? This ability belongs in the arsenal of not-yet-existent Alchemy god.
4)Call Merchant. The only ability I liked. The Choice and Shop Diving aspects to be precise. Only thing I didn't like is a food shop as a crutch. (Corpse shop for a ghoul? Really? )
5)Bribe branch. Why in the hell would I want to spend gold to minimize my potential gold and XP gain in the branch? Thanks gozag, it didn't work half as advertised. Upon using this ability in Shoals I got: 2-3 friendly merfolks and dozen neutral merfolks on A:1, 4 allied merfolks total from a branch, and many-many dead merfolks off-screen(lost XP and gold).
Gozag had his impact - 2 artifact rings, gloves and shield were bought from his shops. But that's just not enough to justify deity.

Friday, 1st May 2015, 14:04 by XuaXua

I mean, I guess it's OK to have a "Gold God" even if he's kind of lousy, if only to curb additional Gold God proposals.

Friday, 1st May 2015, 15:35 by dowan

Or, in another manner of thinking, having this lousy gold god prevents us from having someone come up with an actually decent gold god, started from scratch.

Not to be mean, but the current Gozag design just seems irredeemably broken and unfun. And nobody felt any differently when it was in trunk, so it's kind of irritating that despite the fact that nobody liked it, it was shoved into stable anyway.

Forest was more well liked than gozag, as were lava orcs, efreet, and mountain dwarves for that matter...

Friday, 1st May 2015, 16:45 by and into

"Well liked" is not part of the major criteria for crawl design, though. The devs have made many changes to the game that were not popular at the time, but which in the fullness of time proved very salutary. I agree gozag needs more work, but I hardly think the idea is irredeemable, especially considering that there are enough strong gods in the game that there is room for more of a niche deity. (My main problem with gozag now is less about power level, than about lingering interface and enjoyment issues that I wished had been addressed before it made stable, but oh well.)

Anyway: cut out the dev bashing. [EDIT: In case it was unclear, I am referring to kvaak's post up-thread.]

If you are actually interested in seeing anything changed it is counterproductive. And if you just want to kvetch then there are innumerable other websites where you can do that.

Friday, 1st May 2015, 17:05 by KittenInMyCerealz

The problem is, Gozag currently fills no niche at all (if you dont count *have all the gold in the world*), has no solid theme, isn't really fun to play (at least for me), steps on other gods' toes and just seems unfinished product in every aspect. It's just bits and pieces of many possible other gods (gold, alchemy, unlimited piety/no piety decay etc) combined into this one crappy mess.
And for those reasons many think he doesn't belong in the game, as he currently stands.

Friday, 1st May 2015, 17:11 by dowan

I'm not trying to bash the dev who made it, I'm trying to bash the action of putting a clearly unfinished god into stable. When you are doing creative work, a lot of the time the final product isn't what you might have hoped, and that's normal. The important part is keeping the uniform standards that have produced such a tight and well made game, and not throwing those standards out the window for pet projects. He could have been carried over to the next trunk, rather than jammed into stable.

But, it is what it is at this point. What I'd like to see as a change is the removal of gozag from the next stable branch. He can always be re-implemented later on, but he's a waste of an altar vault at the moment.

Friday, 1st May 2015, 17:11 by mps

One thing about Gozag that is arguably useful is that his wrath seems pretty milquetoast. If you aren't using useless abilities, e.g. "buy shops," it's almost meaningless. You get a "free" set of potions (actually useful) for joining and you get a lot of extra gold. If you abandon when you're done with the orc shops, you might actually come out ahead and your position in the dungeon means you don't have to go far out of your way to join a real religion. The gold distraction thing is not entirely useless in early dungeon either.

I don't see any real potential for Gozag later in the game, though.

Friday, 1st May 2015, 18:38 by BobIsDead

Curio wrote:Why god of gold and greed gives effects of a potions directly? This ability belongs in the arsenal of not-yet-existent Alchemy god.

See, it's funny, ever since I first saw people complain about the potion thing not really fitting with the theme of a gold god, I thought that Gozag would work better reflavoured as an alchemy god. I mean, they've got the gold obsession down, as well as the potions. Now all we need is an ability that grants eternal youth. Though, given the average life expectancy of the ordinary player character, that doesn't seem like it'd have a huge effect.

Sunday, 3rd May 2015, 14:31 by XuaXua

BobIsDead wrote:Gozag would work better reflavoured as an alchemy god.

Innate bonuses to Transmutations spells (extended duration, +1 Skill aptitude), and access to the removed spells Evaporation and whichever one made potions (though corpse dropping would need rework; perhaps make the spell create gold when cast at range).

Monday, 4th May 2015, 07:07 by Curio

XuaXua wrote:
BobIsDead wrote:
Curio wrote:Gozag would work better reflavoured as an alchemy god.

Innate bonuses to Transmutations spells (extended duration, +1 Skill aptitude), and access to the removed spells Evaporation and whichever one made potions (though corpse dropping would need rework; perhaps make the spell create gold when cast at range).

I didn't said that. If there's gonna be Alchemy god - s/he must be created from scratch - not remade from this unfinished god.

Personally, I agree with Dowan - remove Gozag from stable and keep working on it in trunk. It is not refined and not yet worthy of this awesome game.

Monday, 4th May 2015, 17:22 by XuaXua

Curio wrote:I didn't said that.

Failed to unnest quotes. Fixed.

Tuesday, 5th May 2015, 18:21 by and into

dowan wrote:I'm not trying to bash the dev who made it, I'm trying to bash the action of putting a clearly unfinished god into stable. When you are doing creative work, a lot of the time the final product isn't what you might have hoped, and that's normal. The important part is keeping the uniform standards that have produced such a tight and well made game, and not throwing those standards out the window for pet projects. He could have been carried over to the next trunk, rather than jammed into stable.

But, it is what it is at this point. What I'd like to see as a change is the removal of gozag from the next stable branch. He can always be re-implemented later on, but he's a waste of an altar vault at the moment.

I edited my above post to clarify what I was referring to. I don't think your posts were out of line (and your explanation above is helpful in fleshing out why you think moving Gozag out of stable would be a good idea).

Tuesday, 5th May 2015, 20:19 by cacticus

Instead of bribing a whole branch, why not have as an ability the option to bribe a monster in sight?
OR instead of the create shop ability that nobody seems to like, the ability to call up a random shop immediately that only exists until you exit it? or call a temporary bazaar portal?
OR where god gifts would appear at your feet (Trog, Okarwu), Gozag instead offers an item directly for sale for a limited time. Kind like Vehumet's memorization offers? "Gozag offers you a [bla bla bla] for $xxx."

Wednesday, 6th May 2015, 00:58 by nordetsa

Wouldn't bribing monster on sight be not much different from Ely's pacification?

Wednesday, 6th May 2015, 05:55 by The Ferret

^

Not if it's different, such as making it a permanent ally.

OR where god gifts would appear at your feet (Trog, Okarwu), Gozag instead offers an item directly for sale for a limited time. Kind like Vehumet's memorization offers? "Gozag offers you a [bla bla bla] for $xxx."

That is also a good idea, though it doesn't solve the food problem (if it's acquirement from a random category, you can't guarantee that Gozag will offer you an affordable stack of food).

IMHO the conduct is silly no matter which way you spin it - no chunks, but you're granted the ability to buy all the permafood you want. It would be like if Ely/Zin/TSO's no-necromancy conduct came along with a new "Divine" spell school that contains all of the same effects as Necromancy, and Divine spell-like effects were granted with piety, but you have to run to some randomly selected area of the dungeon periodically to use them.

As it is Gozag doesn't even need a conduct to be balanced - much less a super-restrictive conduct that basically excludes whole categories of classes and races from worship (casters and carnivores). IMO "Midas touch" is a good example of putting flavor ahead of gameplay - no-chunks is an uninteresting conduct, makes for annoying, uninteresting, and mildly spoilery gameplay (if you're doing anything that causes hunger - casting, rods, etc. - you have to carefully estimate your food needs and order a food shop before you need it, which is neither fun nor immediately obvious). If corpses just came with gold, Gozag would likely still be underpowered, annoying, and make you wish you'd just played atheist.

As far as improving Gozag... there's lots of interesting suggestions for improvements in this thread.

The only times I've found myself happy I worshiped Gozag were when I knew a challenge was coming up ahead of time - a runed door, for example - and could Potion Petition several times in a row to get super-buffed and take on out-of-depth monsters. With careful play, the dungeon provides enough consumables that Potion Petition really doesn't add all that much.

Wednesday, 6th May 2015, 14:17 by nicolae

nordetsa wrote:Wouldn't bribing monster on sight be not much different from Ely's pacification?

One of the design ideas of Bribe Branch was intentionally to make it not target specific individual monsters to make it distinct from effects like Ely's pacification or enslavement. The fact that its mechanism of use is mostly unique is one of the better things about Bribe Branch, and it'd be a shame to lose that.

The Ferret wrote:Not if it's different, such as making it a permanent ally.

Crawl doesn't need more sources of permanent allies.