Barkeep
Posts: 1788
Joined: Saturday, 29th June 2013, 16:52
Re: Nemelex changes/removal
</offtopic>
Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.
Barkeep
Posts: 1788
Joined: Saturday, 29th June 2013, 16:52
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 4055
Joined: Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 19:49
What exactly do you mean by having a 'strategic impact'? Why is it bad?
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 5832
Joined: Thursday, 10th February 2011, 18:30
Snake Sneak
Posts: 120
Joined: Monday, 21st February 2011, 02:43
Location: Tennessee
Vaults Vanquisher
Posts: 508
Joined: Tuesday, 1st November 2011, 00:36
Shoals Surfer
Posts: 252
Joined: Sunday, 19th May 2013, 21:30
reaver wrote:No, we don't care.
Dungeon Master
Posts: 762
Joined: Thursday, 25th April 2013, 02:43
Dungeon Master
Posts: 762
Joined: Thursday, 25th April 2013, 02:43
Crypt Cleanser
Posts: 746
Joined: Thursday, 5th December 2013, 04:01
Barkeep
Posts: 1788
Joined: Saturday, 29th June 2013, 16:52
Dungeon Master
Posts: 762
Joined: Thursday, 25th April 2013, 02:43
Quazifuji wrote:By combining all nem cards into a single deck, do you mean shuffling all decks of the same type together like other people have mentioned, or making it so there is only a single type of deck that Nemelex gives that has all types of cards?
Lair Larrikin
Posts: 15
Joined: Tuesday, 13th March 2012, 01:08
Spider Stomper
Posts: 208
Joined: Thursday, 12th September 2013, 15:02
Location: France
Dungeon Master
Posts: 762
Joined: Thursday, 25th April 2013, 02:43
tompliss wrote:I tried the Nemelex sprint branch on CSZO, and got to the end of its Orc lane with no piety from Nemelex but got a deck of war from killing bears (so I don't think they dropped it). Is the piety multiplier missing ?
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 5832
Joined: Thursday, 10th February 2011, 18:30
reaver wrote:Nemelex now gifts exclusively decks of war, which contain most of his old cards. He no longer gifts any wonders cards. This is the change which I feel the most might need to tweaked.Quazifuji wrote:By combining all nem cards into a single deck, do you mean shuffling all decks of the same type together like other people have mentioned, or making it so there is only a single type of deck that Nemelex gives that has all types of cards?
I linked the commit log which has pretty good explanations. I won't be around to further clarify for a day or so.
Swamp Slogger
Posts: 146
Joined: Saturday, 24th March 2012, 02:07
reaver wrote:Nemelex now gifts exclusively decks of war, which contain most of his old cards. He no longer gifts any wonders cards. This is the change which I feel the most might need to tweaked.Quazifuji wrote:By combining all nem cards into a single deck, do you mean shuffling all decks of the same type together like other people have mentioned, or making it so there is only a single type of deck that Nemelex gives that has all types of cards?
Tomb Titivator
Posts: 895
Joined: Saturday, 15th June 2013, 23:54
Tartarus Sorceror
Posts: 1888
Joined: Saturday, 9th July 2011, 20:57
Klown wrote:Hi~
Is Nemelex now staying for good since he got 'fixed' or is removal still an option?
Barkeep
Posts: 3890
Joined: Wednesday, 14th August 2013, 23:25
Location: USA
When replying to a thread:
- Bear in mind that balance is easy to adjust after testing. Making claims about arbitrary numbers in a proposal is likely to be unhelpful - instead think about whether the underlying mechanics would be good or not.
- Provide constructive criticism. Brief posts with no justification behind them (things like "this is obviously a bad idea", "this would be useless", "this would be overpowered") are likely to be removed.
- A negative environment breeds further negativity. Aggressive posts will be strongly moderated - it's possible to criticise an idea while still being respectful. Have empathy, especially for new members, and give people the benefit of the doubt. If you find yourself becoming overly emotional or negative, close the tab and come back later.
- If you feel that a post is offensive or breaks the rules in some other way, send a private message to the poster or to a moderator, or use the report button to bring it to a moderator's attention, instead of starting an argument in the thread.
Temple Termagant
Posts: 6
Joined: Tuesday, 3rd December 2013, 21:56
Pandemonium Purger
Posts: 1298
Joined: Wednesday, 11th April 2012, 02:42
Location: Sydney, Australia
Degeneration - I liked this card, it is easy to understand and the effect has the potential to be both useful and dangerous. However this card shares the same problems as other sources of polymorph - that certain enemies such as worms and slugs will turn into enemies that are dramatically more dangerous.
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 4055
Joined: Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 19:49
Dungeon Master
Posts: 1613
Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 21:54
crate wrote:Degeneration card does have a problem, but it's not the one mentioned above. The problem with degen card is it works on plants and fungi and such ... I should not have to explain how turning plants into oklobs is not a card effect that should happen. It turning weak monsters into strong ones is fine, Nemelex isn't supposed to be strictly-good effects (and it is a very powerful card effect anyway).
Swamp Slogger
Posts: 163
Joined: Wednesday, 29th December 2010, 22:32
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 4055
Joined: Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 19:49
Most of them are useful ONLY if you go directly into melee combat, and even then they have a pretty good chance of being mediocre (Helm), useless (Blade, most of the time), or actively harmful (Metamorphosis most of the time).
Barkeep
Posts: 1788
Joined: Saturday, 29th June 2013, 16:52
Swamp Slogger
Posts: 163
Joined: Wednesday, 29th December 2010, 22:32
crate wrote:Most of them are useful ONLY if you go directly into melee combat, and even then they have a pretty good chance of being mediocre (Helm), useless (Blade, most of the time), or actively harmful (Metamorphosis most of the time).
Helm card is actually super good so I don't know what you're talking about there. You get a level 5 spell, a level 2 spell, a level 4 spell (except two of these are actually usually better than the spell, and the shield isn't really cshield but let's pretend it is) and a potion of resistance all at once if you're lucky (from legendary decks). If you're as unlucky as possible you get "only" a level 2 spell and a potion of resistance. It's one of the absolute best cards Nemelex offers imo.
Blade card and metamorphosis card are, by my count, the only ones that "force" you into melee (and even then the different forms change your defenses also, so you can argue about metamorphosis card; yes metamorphosis card is weak but not everything should be a winner all the time). (You could count battlelust but power 2 gives agility.) Besides, old Nemelex had the "problem" of "forcing" you to be at range for spark card and flame card! So why is that acceptable but the opposite isn't?
crate wrote:I'm pretty sure that these changes are not intended to keep Nemelex at the same power level, and in fact are not terribly concerned with doing so. The main idea is to make Nemelex less cumbersome to worship, and from playing the new_nemelex branch it definitely succeeds on that front, and splitting escape off from war solves the biggest problem I had with the branch (at the cost of, yes, making Nemelex slightly more cumbersome again. But two decks is a dramatic improvement from four). He still seemed pretty powerful to me in new_nemelex and was still quite enjoyable.
Vaults Vanquisher
Posts: 508
Joined: Tuesday, 1st November 2011, 00:36
crate wrote:Degeneration card does have a problem, but it's not the one mentioned above. The problem with degen card is it works on plants and fungi and such ... I should not have to explain how turning plants into oklobs is not a card effect that should happen. It turning weak monsters into strong ones is fine, Nemelex isn't supposed to be strictly-good effects (and it is a very powerful card effect anyway).
archaeo wrote:Either design a fun micromanagement scheme (good luck)
Barkeep
Posts: 1788
Joined: Saturday, 29th June 2013, 16:52
Leafsnail wrote:Deckbuilding!
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 4055
Joined: Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 19:49
Leafsnail wrote:It's not a problem if monsters sometimes get better, but it is a problem if certain particular monsters get better based on a non-transparent system. To accurately judge how good an idea it is to polymorph something you need to know its HD (a hidden property) and also the threat level of all the monsters in the same genus (or whatever it respects) with similar HDs, that seems bad to me.
A lot of people who greatly valued Decks of Destruction and Summoning previously will be discouraged from worshipping new Nemelex at all, because suddenly their decks are diluted by a bunch of new cards that do little or nothing for their build.
I still feel as though the current design simply creates a replicated experience (you have escape abilities and killdudes abilities), but instead of simply charging your character directly to use those abilities, you are charged to micromanage those abilities.
Barkeep
Posts: 1788
Joined: Saturday, 29th June 2013, 16:52
crate wrote:I literally have no idea what you mean here. What does "replicated experience" mean? The same (from a player perspective?) as the old Nemelex? It does not solve all the problems with Nemelex but it eliminates one of the big ones (sacrifices) and reduces the other one (inventory management--with only two decks you never really have to carry more than 4 decks at a time (ornate + legendary of each type; plain is pretty worthless if you have better decks), whereas before you were encouraged to carry up to 8). As I stated earlier, I do not think that the broad design of Nemelex was in need of changes, so what's the complaint here?
What does "charging your character directly to use those abilities" mean? Do you mean the deck system existing at all?
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 4055
Joined: Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 19:49
If we consider the gods at their most reductive level (abilities either do damage or prevent you from taking damage) Nemelex gives you access to a much greater range of these tools than any other god, such that, when used optimally, Nemelex will do what any other god will do
Barkeep
Posts: 1788
Joined: Saturday, 29th June 2013, 16:52
crate wrote:So you disagree with the entire premise of an "effects god" like I laid out in my first post in this topic?
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 4055
Joined: Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 19:49
Vaults Vanquisher
Posts: 508
Joined: Tuesday, 1st November 2011, 00:36
crate wrote:If the polymorph system in crawl fits whatever you want it to be, then is a card that polymorphs everything in LOS a bad card? If the answer is no, then your complaint is not about the card at all.
crate wrote:One option is to put all cards into one deck. This is good because it reduces the interface problems significantly; the problem is now every single Nemelex effect is in the same deck. I argued earlier why I think this is less good than multiple decks ... it's serviceable if you intend triple draw to be the main method of using cards, but single-draw is really really bad with a single deck unless you dramatically narrow the breadth of Nemelex's effects. The plus is you do improve Nemelex's interface.
If you keep multiple "virtual decks", well then you hit interface problems in another way: it's still at least three keypresses to use an ability, so you don't get a benefit there (a, [ability letter], [deck letter], then possibly [further choice]). You lose the ability to single-draw decks N times with N+2 keypresses (1 to wield, N to draw, 1 to rewield weapon). You have screen-space problems (see Gozag potion petition, which has this also) and doing something like changing the entire screen (like Stack Five does now) is not acceptable since then you cannot see the viewport while you are making your choice of deck/ability/whatever. Additionally, how do you view what cards are in a "deck"? This also takes a lot more coding work than just changing what decks/cards Nemelex gifts. If you can overcome these problems, then probably this is a good solution, but these problems are real things.
Dungeon Dilettante
Posts: 3
Joined: Sunday, 1st June 2014, 22:59
Return to Game Design Discussion
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 25 guests