Another take on werewolf

[Lyrick]

I got an idea after reading bcadren's Werewolf re-proposal (viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9007).

This is my first kinda legit idea proposal...hope its not too wordy.

Werewolf

Transforming kind of sucks because all those tasty weapon skills you trained go to waste when you can't wield one.
For these werewolves, that is no problem, because they have other skills in Wolf Form to replace their weapon skills, and their experience from Human Form weapons/armour applies to their Wolf Form skills.

Flavor: A race of strange lupine creatures that alternate between human and canine forms. They've learned to adapt to both and can easily transfer their experience between their alternate forms.

EXP gained from training Weapons, Armor, Shields, and Stealth also grant EXP for your Wolf Form skills, and vice versa.
I'm not sure how the UI would be implemented to accomodate 4 extra Wolf skills, we already have like 5 buttons there.

Example: Lets start out Wolfy the WwBe on Dlvl 1. He's in human form. We go to skills, and choose to train his Long Blades for Human, AND Clawing for Wolf. 100% of the exp gained goes to long blades, AND 100% of the exp gained will go to Clawing. Since he's in Human Form, the only skills that are actually effective are going to be his Human Form skills, but when he levels up and transforms into Wolf, he'll be using the Wolf Form skills instead (so he'll have some Clawing skill trained up).

Transformation will happen frequently enough; I'll follow bcadren and start with it being contingent on EXP/Level gain, maybe along the same guidelines as his. You will begin to feel "wolfy" or "humany" as you near the EXP threshold. Transformation is instant. It could also be on a turncount timer but that could result in scumming; if this gets anywhere someone could figure out an effective way to make it interesting and non scummy.

At some point (level 15? level 20?), perhaps the transformation could be a player ability like Vampires ("You've learned how to control your lycanthropic pulse.").

HUMAN FORM:

Fairly mundane. Uses all items and weapons normally.
Carnivore I (cause you got used to it from wolf form)


WOLF FORM:

Claws I (up to III if you train Clawing)
Fangs I (up to III if you train Stalking)
Talons I (up to III if you train Hunting)
Sense invisible (up to Acute Vision if you train Detecting, and Detect Items if you train it more)
Furry II
Carnivore III

Limited equipment (Jewellery only)

When in Wolf Form, uses Wolf physical skills. These are trained alongside the physical skills from human form.

Wolf form skills are (these need tweaking for balance)

Clawing: Improves your damage (same as UC for normal race) and upgrades claws. At max level, grants Claws III type bleeding.
Hunting: Improves your speed and talons. At max level, grants Fast Movement III while moving towards a monster and Fast Movement II otherwise.
Stalking: Improves your ability to move extremely silently and upgrades bite. Stabbing foes in Wolf Form is treated as between long blades and short blades.
Detecting: Improves your ability to smell out foes and items. At high levels, grants Ashenzari-type enemy detection with massive range, and also discovers the type of monster (eg. a giant, an insect, a large creature, a humanoid, a demon).


APTS:

Base stats: Assuming human is 8/8/8 (wiki is strange), then these guys would be 9/8/9.

+1 to random every 4th level

HP: +0
MP: +0
Exp: -1

HP and MP do not change for either form.

Fighting: +1
Dodging: +2 (wolf instinct)

::Human form skills::
Melee/Ranged Weapon skills: +0
UC: +1 (wolfish)
Armour: -1 (doesn't feel natural)
Shields: +0
Stealth: +3

::Wolf form skills::
Clawing: +1
Hunting: +2
Stalking: +3
Detecting: +3


Spellcasting: -1
Transmutations: +2
Other spell schools: +0

Invocations: +1
Evocations: +0

[reaver]

I still haven't seen anybody address this post of mine from the thread Bcadren just Necro'd**:

After some thought, I believe that the whole "involuntary switch between two forms" things fails as a concept, and this is why:

If the player prefers their current form to their future form, then the switch mechanic must be impossible to hasten.

If the player prefers their future form to their current form, then the switch mechanic must be impossible to delay.

Since there is no way to predict if a player will find their future form better or worse, both of these goals need to be handled by the same trigger.

These two goals fundamentally incompatible. While some triggers can't be hastened (XP, Piety gain) and one can't be delayed (Time*) there aren't any that can do both.

Sorry if that train of logic's a bit abstract and hard to follow, but basically I don't think there is a way to make this idea not scummy. It's just impossible to make something which forces the player to spend time in both forms.

*You can "hasten" time by pressing '5'. You get the advantages of the form change without having to fight enemies for it.

As it applies to this proposal: If I think my wolf form is significantly more powerful than my human form and a branch end is coming up, I might purposely avoid enemies so that I can spend more time in wolf form. This means skipping levels, dancing around enemies I could trivially kill, and leaving the branch half way through to do something else because of a form switch.

**Arrhythmia and TeshiAlair sort of did but both suggested moving to more tactical systems. Werewolf proposals seems to be defined by strategic form changes.

EDIT: Also, that's to completely ignore the massive overhead adding multiple skills just for one species would be, or any other problem with this proposal.

[Lyrick]

Ah. I hadn't read all that. I don't suppose involuntary switching is a viable path for race design, with those kinds of goals in mind.
I was hoping that with this version that wolf form would be just as capable as human form in combat, such that being in one or the other is not necessarily more preferable, but that they it'd be "fun" to have the sudden change of gameplay (sometimes in mid-battle even) and that being in one or the other would not prove to be a disadvantage. But finding great artifact armor/weapons would lean the player towards preferring human...so I do see the problems there. Could just be ability transform into wolf form. Might be stepping on felid territory a bit though?

[bcadren]

I don't anyone said the wolf form was weak. It's not quite a troll's UC; but semi-good magic apts. Somewhere between troll and Felid. It would be playable by itself, but not unique enough to float a race... The split is enough to float a race; but switching...need a good mechanic for that.

[TeshiAlair]

Here's an idea- WW's have a "stress" level as a human that goes up when you take damage and DOESNT go down over time. When stress hits max, you wolf out. Wolf mode reduces stress, but when it is at zero, you then choose to go back. So, going Wolf is involuntary, going human is voluntary. This requires you to try to plan when you want to go wolf, and pick your fights accordingly. At a certain level (let's say 15), you get semi-voluntary wolfing (say, a "calm down" ability with a massive cooldown), and at 20 you get full choosing. This is to (hopefully) reflect that early game, it isn't that harmful to occasionally wolf, mid game, you're going to be fairly reliant on your weapons, and late game having vision and higher speed is more strategic.

[Bloax]

What will prevent me from mashing . a bunch of times to artificially take damage from trivial foes just to be close to "wolfing out" if that's desirable - and consequently doing so to reset the "stress" meter if I don't want to "wolf out" at some point?

[TeshiAlair]

Perhaps there could be a per enemy cap, or only from hits that deal 25% or more of max hp. This way, playing the "ogre plz hit me" game IS a strategy, but "stand in the green rats" is not.

Also, intentionally letting something wolf you out should be acceptable strategy. Perhaps the wolf-side stress meter only goes down when you've dealt enough damage/gained enough exp.