Ogre aptitudes

[Bloax]

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 Og: Fighting: 3!, Short: -4*, Long: -3*, Axes: -3*, Maces: 3!, Polearms: 0, Staves: -1, Slings: -3, Bows: -3, Xbows: -3, Throw: 1, Armour: -2, Dodge: -1, Stealth: -1, Shields: -1, UC: -1, Splcast: 1, Conj: -3*, Hexes: -3, Charms: -3, Summ: -3*, Nec: -3*, Tloc: -3*, Tmut: -3, Fire: -3*, Ice: -3, Air: -3, Earth: -3*, Poison: -3*, Inv: 1, Evo: -1, Exp: 0, HP: 3!, MP: 0

Ogres are a pretty funny race, what with their huge fighting/maces apts and seemingly an above-average spellcasting apt.

The problem is just that you may find useful trinkets like this on D:6 -

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G - the cursed +9,+7 war axe of the Sky (weapon) {chop, rF+ Str-2 Dex+2}.

And actually think about whether or not it would be worthwhile to even bother training axes for a bit, even with the +4 crosstrain bonus the aptitude would still only be +1 - and your plan is to go big clubs regardless.

So my proposal is to simply nudge some aptitudes up a (big) notch:

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 Og: Fighting: 3!, Short: -4*, Long: 2, Axes: 2, Maces: 3!, Polearms: 2, Staves: -1, Slings: -3, Bows: -3, Xbows: -3, Throw: 1, Armour: -2, Dodge: -1, Stealth: -1, Shields: -1, UC: -1, Splcast: 1, Conj: -3*, Hexes: -3, Charms: -3, Summ: -3*, Nec: -3*, Tloc: -3*, Tmut: -3, Fire: -3*, Ice: -3, Air: -3, Earth: -3*, Poison: -3*, Inv: 1, Evo: -1, Exp: 0, HP: 3!, MP: 0

They would still be pigeonholed into going clubs, since giant clubs are really good and very abundant weapons - but this way they would still have the opportunity to have fun with other weapons if they happen to find something great.
I would like their spellcasting to be even higher - and their throwing being +2 (because there are races with +3 and +1, but none with +2), but those are minor issues compared to this grotesque weapon limitation they have.

[bcadren]

Fun fact: Old Ogre-Mages had +1 Spellcasting and 0's through all the spellschools...and 0's for all weapons, except Short (-1).

I'm actually for making them less extreme in general. There's just this vibe of 'big race is bad at everything except a couple specialties, you basically have to use.' +1 Spellcast is the one remnant of Ogre-Mages left in the normal Ogre and with spellcasting apts that are the worst in the game (except Hexes/Tmut/Ice/Air, which Trolls are -4 instead of -3 [SLIGHTLY worse to be worst in the game.])

As for the weapons (what you nudged) I'm for getting them up to 0 or +1. +2 is too similar to Minotargets, I think.

[I'm just saying I'd also be for nudging the spellschools (at least some of them) to -2 or -1. Good at casting, but bad at all schools is an interesting distinction, but I'm not sure it's one we really want.

[TeshiAlair]

Agreed, being terribad at everything isn't interesting. Being melee with no armour/mage with no armour or dodge or stealth is far more interesting.

[tasonir]

Yeah I'd like to see other weapon types reach roughly +1 or 0 range. Wouldn't mind spell schools at -2 either.

[and into]

In more than 95% of games Ogres would train M&F as their main weapon category, long term, even if all their weapon aptitudes were 0. This is because Ogres can use giant clubs and giant spiked clubs. In this case their aptitudes merely reflect what is already the best way to play Ogres in the vast majority of games. This will be the case so long as Ogres can use giant clubs and giant spiked clubs.

You could say the same for Trolls and give them better weapon aptitudes aside from UC, but it would still just be a pointless exercise in giving the illusion of choice rather than providing legitimate alternatives.

Ogres and Trolls are narrow in terms of their weapon choices. That's not a huge problem because weapon choice isn't a very exciting or major part of game play. However if devs feel that it is a problem the only way to solve it would be to tone down the awesomeness of Troll claws and block Ogre's access to giant clubs and giant spiked clubs, and then maybe look at their aptitudes and make some changes. Doing merely the latter is pointless, it would be like giving Trolls and Ogres a +1 stealth aptitude without changing their short blades apt and removing their stealth penalty.

[bcadren]

In more than 95% of games Ogres would train M&F as their main weapon category, long term, even if all their weapon aptitudes were 0. This is because Ogres can use giant clubs and giant spiked clubs. In this case their aptitudes merely reflect what is already the best way to play Ogres in the vast majority of games. This will be the case so long as Ogres can use giant clubs and giant spiked clubs.

I disagree. GSC may be more common than other max-power weapons; but it's base dam is only two points higher than Blessed Claymores and though they themselves are more common, finding a branded or artifact one without Trog, Oka or acquirement is almost unheard of. With better apts in other weapons, there's a better chance a ogre would go with a branded or artifact Claymore or Executioner's Axe. OR...choose to go weapon/shield with a DBlade. Even as is...Eveningstar + Shield or Demon Whip/Shield can be a superior choice to GSC.

[and into]

Yeah eveningstar and demon whip + shield can be good if/when they show up. You can use those with M&F, so that keeps your options open. And with scroll of brand weapon it is pretty common to create at least a vorpal gsc by some point in Vaults.

Basically, so long as Og has +3 M&F and access to the giant weapons, then in the vast majority of games you are going to go with M&F. Even if their other weapon apts were better. Of course an awesome artefact drop early on could push you in another direction, but that's about it, and that's true for all characters and is so rare that I don't think it is worth making design decisions solely around that possibility.

[Lasty]

GSC may be more common than other max-power weapons; but it's base dam is only two points higher than Blessed Claymores

What you're saying here is that the extremely common giant spiked club is only does 10% more damage than the highest-damaging other weapon, one that is extremely rare and only exists if you use the 6 * ability of one specific god, and which reaches min delay at two skill levels later?

Giant spiked clubs are abundant throughout in the game and reach min delay with a (relatively) low skill. They do insane damage. It's true that they pretty much do not exist in a branded form, but that's what scroll of brand weapon is for -- and you tend to find more scrolls of brand weapon than claymores.

[damiac]

I'd like to see ogre spellcasting pushed up to +2, and conj to -1. I think it fits better with the 'generalist' spellcasting that ogres currently have. I feel ogres are a bit... weak at the moment, even as glass cannons they're a little more glass than they are cannon. Admittedly it's thick glass. But they could use a little more cannon.

[tasonir]

Granted that buffing other weapon aptitudes won't be a huge deal, but improving their magic schools can be combined with GSC's to make more casty builds also viable. You'd still use your GSC for your melee option, but could more easily rely on magic and keep the club as a backup. I'm not sure I'd ever bother with this, because I love melee, but some more magicy players might

[Speleothing]

Ogres could use a +1 bump to all their spellcasting aps, seeing as they're supposedly somewhat competent at it.

Being a little better at weapons would be okay, as well, but like others have said, being able to access GSCs is a big plus for going M&F in every game. Though, they might be more willing to spend xp on other weapon skills if they weren't lighting it on fire to get basic low-level buffs castable.

[Bloax]

I can't remember where, but someone (was it minmay?) mentioned that their fast metabolism doesn't serve any purpose since they even have Saprovore to offset that, and thus it only results in additional annoyance in the form of "You are hungry!!!!!!!!" nagging messages.

Now, what I'm thinking here is flipping that "Fast metabolism: 1" to a "Slow metabolism: 1" - because ogres are big and fat, and thus they get hungry slower than others, simply because they have a larger storage of food than human-sized races. (And funnily enough it's actually the smaller organisms which tend to have the faster metabolisms.)

[damiac]

Ogres should have built in carnivore 1, drop fast metabolism (why is it even in the game?), leave saprovore, because, why not...

This will effectively make no difference, except a lot less 'cyey'.

[archaeo]

I do wonder what design goal the fast metabolism accomplishes. Like, on Ogre Mage (in Nostalgia), it makes a little sense, as it impacts your ability to cast spells. But on vanilla Ogres, it doesn't really seem to do anything other than make you eat chunks more (and probably make extended a little more annoying).

[damiac]

I'm pretty sure the 'design goal' was "Eh, they're big... they should probably have to eat more".

In other words, driven by flavor rather than gameplay. A lot about ogres seems that way. They've got interesting potential as a 'Glass cannon GSC machine with conjurations backup' but I think giving them a little more conjurations apt would go a long way toward making that more playable.

Alternatively, allowing them to wield a 2 hander and shield (except GSCs) would make weapon choice less of a no brainer, as well as give them better defenses.

I don't see any reason to improve their other weapon apts, but I really don't care at all either way. To me, ogres should be smashing things with clubs, but I don't really care what other people want to do with their ogres.