Demigod Reform


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 12:51

Demigod Reform

Demigods are supposed to be half gods, or sons of gods retaining supernatural skills and power. Better than a human in everyway. The current ones don't have this feeling.
If a Crawl Dg and Hu were in a barracks training swords, the Human would master them first. Then mock the demigod for being a son of a god who can't even beat a simple human. This proposal is about making Dg more realistic, and more fun to play, albeit very simple. Better than humans in every way, but can't worship a God. UP? OP? Doesn't matter because Crawl's species are skill levels.

Innate Abilities
  Code:
STR: 10
INT: 10
DEx: 10
Can't worship Gods


Level Bonuses
  Code:
+1 to a random stat every 3 levels
10% more HP
10% more MP
+4 magic resistance per level


Skill Aptitudes
  Code:
Fighting: 1
Short Blades: 1
Long Blades: 1
Axes: 1
Maces & Flails: 1
Maces & Flails: 1
Polearms: 1
Staves: 1
Unarmed Combat: 1
Throwing: 1
Slings: 1
Bows: 1
Crossbows: 1
Armour: 1
Dodging: 1
Stealth: 2
Shields: 1
Fire Magic: 1
Ice Magic: 1
Air Magic: 1
Earth Magic: 1
Poison Magic: 1
Spellcasting: 0
Conjurations: 1
Hexes: 1
Charms: 1
Summonings: 1
Necromancy: 1
Translocations: 1
Transmutation: 1
Invocations: N/A
Evocations: 2
Experience: 2


Strong, more intelligent, more dextrous, faster leveling in general, faster skill raising. But no OP Gods.

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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 13:54

Re: Demigod Reform

I believe Demigods currently have "base" stats of 11 or 12 (not 10), which are then modified according to your background. Demigods definitely get +1 random stat every 2 levels, not every 3 levels, and also have +1 HP and +2 MP, not +1 in each.

Anyway, slow development both in level *and* in skills, no god, and high stats are what currently defines demigods, and I think that's good. Removing any one of those things while keeping the others makes Demigods less distinct, not more.

It seems like "Species/background choice is DCSS's difficulty setting" is already in danger of quickly becoming a GDD cliche, and I'd like to nip that in the bud. Like most cliches, it is not untrue, but has a high danger of being misused as a hasty generalization even where it might not be inappropriate.

In terms of game play, species/background selection allows you to choose, alongside a great many other things, the relative average difficulty curve you can expect to experience. In terms of design, however, distinctiveness (not difficulty) is the name of the game when it comes to species and backgrounds.

(Note: Not trying to put you down individually, Klown, I've just noticed the "species lets you set difficulty" concept being used, in my view, incorrectly, several times recently.)

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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 13:56

Re: Demigod Reform

I changed those based on humans 'slightly 1-up'ing' them in every regard equally.

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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 14:01

Re: Demigod Reform

Klown wrote:I changed those based on humans 'slightly 1-up'ing' them in every regard equally.


Ah, ok, I wasn't sure those changes were intentional, my read on the thrust of your idea was, "Demigods still can't worship gods and level slowly, but otherwise are now slightly better than humans in stats, apts, and HP/MP."
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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 14:12

Re: Demigod Reform

I wouldn't touch their (actually good) stats, since that's one of the big things that really make them even remotely fun.
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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 14:33

Re: Demigod Reform

Personally, I really liked the abstract worshipers thing, but that wasn't a buff as much as it was a change. Whatever happened to that anyway?

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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 15:21

Re: Demigod Reform

maybe Crawl Demigods weren't supposed to be better than Humans in every way
maybe they were supposed to be a race with forced godless conduct
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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 15:28

Re: Demigod Reform

Demigods: Least wins in 0.14 tournament due to unfun-undesirable play.

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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 15:37

Re: Demigod Reform

Klown wrote:Demigods: Least wins in 0.14 tournament due to unfun-undesirable play.


I'm not sure you can say that's why. Personally, I like Dg a lot and I think a fair number of other people do, too. Ha, Gh, Hu, Ko didn't have much more in the way of wins and I don't think any of those are intrinisically unfun.

As I have said elsewhere, I would like to see Dg get -1 xp apt instead of -2, but other than that I think they're pretty good as is.

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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 17:01

Re: Demigod Reform

Klown wrote:Demigods: Least wins in 0.14 tournament due to unfun-undesirable play.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Fallacies are bad, mmmkay?

Re the OP, those changes would make dg less fun and less interesting.
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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 17:15

Re: Demigod Reform

MummyBrain wrote:those changes would make dg less fun and less interesting.


Minor apt boosts?
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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 17:46

Re: Demigod Reform

If talking about boosting Demigods; honestly. It's my thought that the slow growing/bad apts and amazing stats balance each other (like dragons in the pokemon main game).

But the positives aren't enough to make up for the lack of a god.

And I'd go more towards the direction of race unique abilities to make up for godlessness. Especially things that flavor-wise make sense as a demigod; like say having the Holy Magic school brought back, but only usable by demigods OR gaining random active abilities that are very useful, but not predictable (similar to Demonspawn, but very DIFFERENT in that you gian active abilities and they gain passives).

Also, the in-game description: They will never follow a god; but they make up for this with divine attributes and health. Implies that they would level as quickly as a human and only be different in (lack of god) and (high stats) the slow level isn't hinted at unless you look at the apts page. Diving attributes also does imply more bonuses than just stats.

Also note at the beginning of the game:
Demigods have 46 (stat total) [6 (Min base stats) + 28 (Species) + 12 (Job)] and ends with 68 [Start + 9 (player decided) + 13 (racial randoms)]
High Elves have 40 (stat total) [6 (Min base stats) + 22 (Species) + 12 (Job)] and ends with 58 [Start + 9 (player decided) + 9 (racial randoms)]

Though a huge difference from say Humans or ghouls; the +10 isn't enough to make up for the slower leveling and lack of god. Making them a far harder race than High Elves. EVEN though from a flavour standpoint; their idea is to be a powerful semi-easy race that's only challenge is godlessness.
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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 18:15

Re: Demigod Reform

Well it's really hard to buy any justifications "from a flavor standpoint" but the comparison to HE does suggest a few points.

Dg is well-balanced with the few other races which get fairly flat aptitudes. There are some High Elves which are easier to win than any Demigod because you can ride big + apts and a book start to lair or whatever. Also +10 stats across the board is a weird thing to point out when Dg has what >20% more hp.

There are two things which make me question the supposed problems with demigods. Dg is a balanced and adaptable race in a game where most of the playable species have strong incentives towards a few different playstyles. Dg mythical difficulty: a large majority of crawl deaths take place before temple. In fact, Dg have a rather easier time than most characters getting to this point because HP and stats are quite good.

Also making one of the best designed races easier under the guise of 'more fun' will be fought to the last.

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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 18:16

Re: Demigod Reform

High elves have -10% hp while DG have +10%.

Imho demigods should have +20% health, they have +20% mana, and being uneven makes it feel like they're better off casters than melee. But even at +10%, that's still 20% more than high elves, which is quite a lot and a noticeable difference. Still not better than a god, but it's a noticeable difference.

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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 18:22

Re: Demigod Reform

Klown wrote:Minor apt boosts?

I propose a minor aptitude boost for Hill Orc. New aptitudes would be:
+3 armour, 0 dodging, +1 stealth, +3 shield, +5 invo, +3 evo
+3 xp
+4 fighting, +2 short blade, +3 long blade, +3 maces, +5 axes, +3 polearms, +3 UC
+2 throwing, +1 slings, +1 bows, +1 xbows
-1 spellcasting, +2 conj, +2 hex, +1 charms, +2 summoning, +2 necro, 0 tloc, -1 tmut, +3 fire, +1 ice, 0 air, +2 earth, +1 poison

Somehow I don't think "minor" is the right word to describe your proposal.

But the positives aren't enough to make up for the lack of a god.

Yes, they are enough. Demigod is one of the strongest races.

Making them a far harder race than High Elves.

Demigod is arguably one of the Top 5 races in the game, and High Elf is arguably one of the Bottom 5.

As with most dg discussions, I get the distinct impression that the people who want to change dg don't have significant experience playing dg and don't understand what dg is really like.

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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 18:24

Re: Demigod Reform

tasonir wrote:High elves have -10% hp while DG have +10%.

Imho demigods should have +20% health, they have +20% mana, and being uneven makes it feel like they're better off casters than melee. But even at +10%, that's still 20% more than high elves, which is quite a lot and a noticeable difference. Still not better than a god, but it's a noticeable difference.



They're better casters than melee basically because casting is stronger than melee and book starts are stronger than melee starts.

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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 18:32

Re: Demigod Reform

I think Demigods could be (more) awesome if the effect of stats was more salient. Not trying to derail but I've seen it mentioned a place or two that there have been ideas such as making stat-dependent "actions/moves" in combat (ex. constriction). I believe this would be a better approach with a lot of interesting potential. Perseus and Herakles didn't have to shoot holy lasers to be great. A change to stats could heavily affect high-stat races such as Dg.

Alternatively, but less desirable imo, would be to make them have patron gods. That could mean anything from a god being selected at level 20 (like a late game draconian) with effects different from actual worship, to passive chance to just find better items: "Divine Favor/Luck". I rather prefer them being slow-developers, but if they need a change: change the significance of their development rather than change them to be more like(in terms of progression) other races...

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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 18:33

Re: Demigod Reform

I acknowledge that Dg are very good if you're thinking about your winrate (since high HP will keep you alive, particularly during the crucial early stages where most characters don't have gods/aren't benefiting hugely from their gods) but I don't think they're fun. Choosing and managing your religion(s) is a pretty large part of the game, and I find that replacing that with a few passive boosts just cuts out a lot of tactical and strategic choices. The OP suggestion doesn't really address this though.
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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 18:39

Re: Demigod Reform

The question is. Why does leveling up and learning skills faster while retaining #1 stats in the game make them 'less interesting' than the current 'might be level 5 by lair' Dg?

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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 18:50

Re: Demigod Reform

Now you have to overcome the lack of a god with some compensation--an interesting challenge

you propose upping this compensation to the point of absurdity. To put it bluntly, the proposed aptitudes are awful (+1 HP combined with +2 XP is the most egregious example but the flat +1 is much worse than flat 0 or flat -1)

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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 18:52

Re: Demigod Reform

Klown wrote:The question is. Why does leveling up and learning skills faster while retaining #1 stats in the game make them 'less interesting' than the current 'might be level 5 by lair' Dg?


Making something easier is not the same as making it more interesting. Absurdly over-exaggerating doesn't help convince people that there's an issue. The heart of this is that no one has yet shown that there's any actual issue with demigods right now, aside from personal preferences that they be holy demonspawn or have crazy aptitudes.

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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 19:50

Re: Demigod Reform

TheDefiniteArticle wrote:As with most dg discussions, I get the distinct impression that the people who want to change dg don't have significant experience playing dg and don't understand what dg is really like.


I said this in another thread recently, but I want anyone who thinks demigod needs changes right now to play DgIE (or a book start of your choice) for a while and get back to me. I didn't really try Dg until recently and I was surprised by a few things but especially the degree to which they dominate the beginning of the game. Anybody proposing buffs to Dg without any nerfs simply doesn't know what they're talking about.

Also put me down for "losing any flat-apt race is bad."

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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 20:59

Re: Demigod Reform

I think the "Demigod Fun Factor" can be helped a bit with some non-aptitude related tweaks.

Right now Demigods seem a little more unfun or difficult because stats don't seem to have as much of an impact in the game, slow leveling seems to suck, and lack of god seems very unfun. (Just what I thought, at least; i have played demigods, and they stomp early game harder than trolls, but without a hungry ghost's metabolism.)

Aren't Demigods normally also associated with being super human in other ways? Like, Jesus went for 40 days without food; surely that rubs off on the spawn of the Gods, so maybe give them Slow Metabolism 1. And since they're kind of godly maybe give them slightly faster regeneration (both HP and MP?); gods are supposed to be quite invincible, so that kind of rubs off onto Demigods.

It'll make a Demigod at least play slightly differently from a godless human.
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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 21:05

Re: Demigod Reform

Is it that much of an "interesting challenge" when Dg are so good? It's not like it's hard to adapt to having a lot of HP

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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 21:38

Re: Demigod Reform

I take issue with claims that Demigods are too strong, because Demigods seem to be strong for the wrong reasons.

At the very start of the game, apts barely matter and most chars are godless anyway, while Demigod stats and especially HP/MP make it a lot easier to survive the first few floors.
Since skilled, careful players are unlikely to die past early game, the lack of good mid/late game god powers is less important than having lots of HP on D:2.

As such, although Demigods seem intended to be the "adapt heavily to circumstance and floor loot" race, they ended up being the "I don't want to splat to a D:1 gnoll halberdier" race.
The former seems like a better concept to aim for.

So, although the numbers might need tweaking, I like the gist of Klown's proposal. Demigods' main disadvantage, godlessness, only kicks in after several floors, so their advantages should mostly kick in after a few floors. This means better skill/leveling/stat growth and worse HP/MP/starting stats.
A race frontloaded in power doesn't work too well when the game is already so frontloaded in design.
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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 21:50

Re: Demigod Reform

'One of the strongest species'
11 wins in a tournament with a million characters.
What does that say about how fun they are?

It barely holds a 'demigod' flavor with the current design, and conflicts with chei's stat boosts making the latter even less popular, since people can just boot up a Dg and get the same thing, without the slowness. Then it's basically a mummy with hunger with those apts.

So boring, unpopular, exactly the same as other species, and making an unpopular god less interesting by having the same buff.

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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 22:10

Re: Demigod Reform

Igxfl wrote:As such, although Demigods seem intended to be the "adapt heavily to circumstance and floor loot" race, they ended up being the "I don't want to splat to a D:1 gnoll halberdier" race.
The former seems like a better concept to aim for.


Not only are those two concepts not mutually exclusive, but they actually go together very nicely.

So, although the numbers might need tweaking, I like the gist of Klown's proposal. Demigods' main disadvantage, godlessness, only kicks in after several floors, so their advantages should mostly kick in after a few floors. This means better skill/leveling/stat growth and worse HP/MP/starting stats.


Again, this removes what is distinctive about them.

I'm not super into Dg, but I've had some extremely interesting games with them because, even more so than humans, they must adapt (lacking a god)—and also must be very careful to adapt wisely. However, you are usually robust enough to survive long enough (with careful/good play) to find some way to adapt. And the good but *random* stat ups give you some flexibility there, yet in a way that is different from humans (which is good—distinctiveness). Average to slightly bad aptitudes and slow leveling means that your decisions regarding how you allocate experience matter. But again the good HP/MP means that you don't feel like you are struggling to survive constantly, the way Octopodes and some other, relatively more-challenging-than-average species often do.

Dg aren't my favorites or anything, but they definitely have a role that is unique, and literally every single change suggested in this thread would be worse than simply removing Dg. Which isn't surprisingly because, to be frank, all the changes so far suggested do not seem to reflect much experience with Dg.

The fact that people don't take them in the tourney is a very bad metric by which to judge a species.

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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 22:30

Re: Demigod Reform

I find dg a lot more interesting than non-dg races because with Crawl's current gods, not having a god is almost always much more interesting than having a god. Possibly if you completely replaced every god in the game then dg wouldn't be my second-favourite race, but I don't think that's likely to happen any time soon.
And before someone says "you can just play any other race and not take a god", you can also just play any non-naga race and press . after every 2 moves, or play any non-deep elf race and quit if your hp ever goes below 30%.

Klown wrote:conflicts with chei's stat boosts making the latter even less popular, since people can just boot up a Dg and get the same thing, without the slowness.
I'd rather get rid of the stat boost on a poorly-designed, poorly-balanced god than the stat boost on a well-designed, well-balanced race.

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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 23:15

Re: Demigod Reform

"Well-designed" is clearly a weasel-word/phrase. What does it even mean?

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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 23:17

Re: Demigod Reform

Yes I almost didn't want to say that but I figured with people throwing around stuff like "fun" it wouldn't make things any worse.

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Post Wednesday, 30th April 2014, 00:51

Re: Demigod Reform

My theory of Dg popularity is that a lot of new players look at the concept and the apts and don't even try them. This is as well-supported as any other generalization thus far made on the subject.

edit: not having a god seems self-evidently fun/interesting to me. If it doesn't to you I can't help with that but it's indisputably a unique characteristic which goes hand-in-hand with flat apts. Again the name of the game is not being pushed toward any particular playstyle.

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Post Wednesday, 30th April 2014, 01:14

Re: Demigod Reform

Looking at Species/Background/God choice in the tournament results... well I can't speak for what's fun for most people but it certainly shows an inconsistent relationship with what's actually most powerful and many results I would not have predicted. What people "know" about Crawl tends to be handed from person to person like the internet version of oral tradition, influenced by preconceptions from other games which do not necessarily apply, and narrowed by the fact that in a game many people never win, players tend to stick with what they know.

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Post Wednesday, 30th April 2014, 01:31

Re: Demigod Reform

duvessa wrote:Yes I almost didn't want to say that but I figured with people throwing around stuff like "fun" it wouldn't make things any worse.
"Fun" has a clear and well-understood definition, even if it's subjective. "Well-designed" does not, particularly if we do not know what purpose you think races should be designed for.

zardo wrote:edit: not having a god seems self-evidently fun/interesting to me. If it doesn't to you I can't help with that but it's indisputably a unique characteristic which goes hand-in-hand with flat apts. Again the name of the game is not being pushed toward any particular playstyle.
I obviously can't tell you what to find fun, but can't you at least see that it's not self-evident that removing a lot of tactical options/strategic choices and replacing them with an HP/stat boost isn't self-evidently enjoyable (unless you hate every single god in the game)? And yeah you're not being pushed towards any particular playstyle, but you are being locked out of a whole range of them (and indeed out of an extra dimension to every playstyle).

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Post Wednesday, 30th April 2014, 02:45

Re: Demigod Reform

Leafsnail wrote:removing a lot of tactical options/strategic choices

That is exactly what gods do. A HuFi goes "otabotabotab crap an orc wizard time to use tactics." A HuBe goes "otabotabotab crap an orc wizard time to press aa then otab some more."

Even a god with absolutely no restrictions removes choices through the simple act of giving you useful powers. When you are worshipping Nemelex, all other choices become dramatically less meaningful because decks can literally win the entire game on their own. Why bother thinking about long-term strategy when you can just worship Kiku and be guaranteed a powerful weapon that matches your best weapon aptitude and easily destroys the majority of the game's monsters and also be guaranteed a full suite of powerful magic spells and an unlimited supply of corpses to power those spells?

Without godly aid to handhold you, demigods have to make a larger number of meaningful decisions in most cases. This is true of any atheist, but as duvessa explained, demigods allow a player to be atheist without deliberately hamstringing themselves.

Also the stats are significant and interesting in their own way, but that is secondary to the atheism.

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Post Wednesday, 30th April 2014, 06:34

Re: Demigod Reform

I really like the idea of a race that can't pick a god, because it does make the game fun, but Dg are just so unfun to play for me because of their painfully slow leveling and apts.

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Post Wednesday, 30th April 2014, 07:39

Re: Demigod Reform

Wahaha wrote:I really like the idea of a race that can't pick a god, because it does make the game fun, but Dg are just so unfun to play for me because of their painfully slow leveling and apts.

I agree with that. I like the concept of being godless and forced to adapt to dungeon findings in order to survive, but it's actually really hard when tight on exp. When I start e.g. with maces and find amazing sword around lair, it is huge amount of wasted experience to just switch to it. If I start as Ice Elementalist and find books of Dragon and Fire, it's again very difficult to respecialize. If we want to make demigods around adaptation, giving them painful aptitudes is not the way to go. If there is something that really encourages adaptation, it is Ashenzari with his piety transfer and boosts to skills.

A proposal: merge humans and demigods. Give new species (probably) human apts to maintain relatively good adaptability. This species starts to receive demigod's advantages the longer it stays godless (xlvl dependent robust/mana capacity + increased stat gain). If at any point of the game a player decides to worship a god, all boosts are lost and can be never regained (plain human).
In this way:
- demigods are not clearly better in the early game
- demigods become more adaptable compared to old version thanks to better apts
- interesting early game finding might encourage player to remain godless human... or just look for god's guidance in order to survive.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 30th April 2014, 08:05

Re: Demigod Reform

I could support increasing Dg xp apt, or maybe even making their apts 0 instead of -1, but would definitely not go past that, and I'm not really sure that's necessary either.

I definitely don't support merging human and Dg, even the way it's put in Bart's proposal, since human should stay simple (that's kind of the point of the race).

Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 30th April 2014, 08:06

Re: Demigod Reform

This species starts to receive demigod's advantages the longer it stays godless (xlvl dependent robust/mana capacity + increased stat gain).

Because they are enlightened by their intelligence?

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Slime Squisher

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Post Wednesday, 30th April 2014, 08:23

Re: Demigod Reform

Sar wrote:
This species starts to receive demigod's advantages the longer it stays godless (xlvl dependent robust/mana capacity + increased stat gain).

Because they are enlightened by their intelligence?


Because they need to grow up to be godlike. I did not propose any flavor nor name and in the first place please think whether this mechanic would be interesting enough.
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Wednesday, 30th April 2014, 09:38

Re: Demigod Reform

It's pretty funny once you think about it (ascension to godhood), and it would certainly make demigods less stupid in the sense that gods only make bastard children with humans (ew, orcs, spriggans, minotaurs, elves - disgusting creatures) right now.
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

Did you know that I like ruining crawl every now and then? Go check it out.

Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 30th April 2014, 10:59

Re: Demigod Reform

It has very weird flavor. The mechanic can be interesting on some species, I guess, but I agree with crate that humans should stay simple.

Slime Squisher

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Post Wednesday, 30th April 2014, 11:44

Re: Demigod Reform

Having an option to stay godless and benefit from it would not make human less simple. Less mundane, yes.

Shoals Surfer

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Post Wednesday, 30th April 2014, 13:31

Re: Demigod Reform

Demigod connotes something special, when godless is probably the key aspect (as Sar noted).

Simple fix. Change the race to Heathen.

Dungeon Master

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Post Wednesday, 30th April 2014, 13:39

Re: Demigod Reform

Bart wrote:I like the concept of being godless and forced to adapt to dungeon findings in order to survive, but it's actually really hard when tight on exp. When I start e.g. with maces and find amazing sword around lair, it is huge amount of wasted experience to just switch to it. If I start as Ice Elementalist and find books of Dragon and Fire, it's again very difficult to respecialize. If we want to make demigods around adaptation, giving them painful aptitudes is not the way to go. If there is something that really encourages adaptation, it is Ashenzari with his piety transfer and boosts to skills.


I'm as big a fan of adaptation as anyone, but I think this misses the point: if you can pick up anything and immediately use it as well as if you'd been training it all game, you're adapting to dungeon finds, but you aren't making interesting choices. Imagine a race that had all skills at the same level. It would be maximally adaptable, in that it would be able to equally take advantage of any find, but it would also be frustrating and silly, because there would be no significance to any choice, and anything you choose to use you could also abandon without penalty.

Adaptation is only interesting to the extent that it requires some commitment and forces choices with significance. Demigod aptitudes do a fine job of that at present.

I could see moving them to 0 instead of -1, since both are within the range of "reasonably neutral", but I don't think demigods need apt 0 to be competitive or adaptable.

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Tomb Titivator

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Post Wednesday, 30th April 2014, 14:02

Re: Demigod Reform

MrPlanck wrote:Demigod connotes something special, when godless is probably the key aspect (as Sar noted).

Simple fix. Change the race to Heathen.


This~
It barely holds onto the demigod flavor, a name change would help the current version.

And weird to see people who say 'apts don't matter' 'exp is barely noticeable' wakawaka'ing over a 'just-better-than-human' species who still has to challenge itself with no god.
The proposal keeps the best part, godlessness, and adds flavor(more demigodly species) and fun(according to a few agree'ers here agreeing it's subhuman apts are sluggishly boring.)

Shoals Surfer

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Post Wednesday, 30th April 2014, 16:10

Re: Demigod Reform

Klown wrote:according to a few agree'ers here agreeing it's subhuman apts are sluggishly boring


It's tough to explain why Ds is the most popular online race by a mile if this is the case.

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Post Wednesday, 30th April 2014, 16:18

Re: Demigod Reform

It levels faster, has some better apts(fighting, necromancy, invocations, etc.) and gives you insane mutations non-stop.
Take that away and nobody would play them :p

Mines Malingerer

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Post Wednesday, 30th April 2014, 16:28

Re: Demigod Reform

ackack wrote:
Klown wrote:according to a few agree'ers here agreeing it's subhuman apts are sluggishly boring


It's tough to explain why Ds is the most popular online race by a mile if this is the case.


If you're looking at game starts, it's because of start-scumming / quitting if you don't like the first mutation set.

Shoals Surfer

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Post Wednesday, 30th April 2014, 16:34

Re: Demigod Reform

bisonbisonbison wrote:If you're looking at game starts, it's because of start-scumming / quitting if you don't like the first mutation set.


It actually isn't:

  Code:
<ackack> !lg * recent !boring s=crace
<Sequell> 530209 games for * (recent !boring): 53417x Demonspawn, 39165x Gargoyle, 39036x Minotaur, 34425x Deep Elf, 27133x Octopode, 24827x Draconian, 23083x Formicid, 22876x Spriggan, 22715x High Elf, 19387x Hill Orc, 17075x Tengu, 16674x Troll, 16498x Merfolk, 16489x Vampire, 15990x Djinni, 14573x Kobold, 14342x Ogre, 14185x Human, 13754x Mummy, 13619x Lava Orc, 12668x Naga, 12235x Vine Stalker, 11763x F...


!boring accounts for quits and leaves. You could possibly argue that people are getting themselves killed off instead but that's still a huge lead over Gr and Mi.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Wednesday, 30th April 2014, 16:57

Re: Demigod Reform

ackack wrote:
bisonbisonbison wrote:If you're looking at game starts, it's because of start-scumming / quitting if you don't like the first mutation set.


It actually isn't:

  Code:
<ackack> !lg * recent !boring s=crace
<Sequell> 530209 games for * (recent !boring): 53417x Demonspawn, 39165x Gargoyle, 39036x Minotaur, 34425x Deep Elf, 27133x Octopode, 24827x Draconian, 23083x Formicid, 22876x Spriggan, 22715x High Elf, 19387x Hill Orc, 17075x Tengu, 16674x Troll, 16498x Merfolk, 16489x Vampire, 15990x Djinni, 14573x Kobold, 14342x Ogre, 14185x Human, 13754x Mummy, 13619x Lava Orc, 12668x Naga, 12235x Vine Stalker, 11763x F...


!boring accounts for quits and leaves. You could possibly argue that people are getting themselves killed off instead but that's still a huge lead over Gr and Mi.


Shows what I know!
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