Permanent buffing


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Vestibule Violator

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Post Monday, 28th April 2014, 22:07

Permanent buffing

I propose that some buffs be altered in the following way:

  • The buff does not expire
  • An ability is given to cancel the buff
  • When in effect, your maximum MP is reduced

The thing this change is trying to solve is the issue that many buffs are ideally refreshed continually out of combat, and the only real limiter on this is tedium.

The point of reducing a player's maximum MP is because I presume that the MP cost of casting a spell at the beginning of combat is an intended cost of buffing; by reducing a player's max MP, this enforces a reduced MP pool in combat.

Reducing MP regeneration when the buff is in effect is another option as well, although that is probably not so good as it might encourage cancelling buffs between combat.

Examples I have in mind that could be changed Sure blade, Ozocubu's Armour, and Phase Shift. Maybe the transmutations too, but I have little experience with those and so don't want to say.

Vestibule Violator

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Post Monday, 28th April 2014, 22:17

Re: Permanent buffing

The idea of buffs to reduce a player's maximum MP and/or MP regeneration could be used on its own (without being paired with permanent duration) as a means of balancing charms.

By having charms reduce the player's maximum MP, or reducing MP regeneration (possibly to zero or even negative), players would be discouraged from keeping buffs up permanently between fights.

I don't know if the effect should be stacked for multiple charms, or just the harshest penalty of the active charms should be used. (or something in between)

The effect should be scaled with duration, so that you aren't punished by increasing your spell power. Maybe increased spell power should even decrease the overall MP drain effect.

Barkeep

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Post Monday, 28th April 2014, 22:42

Re: Permanent buffing

This topic has, uh, come up once or twice before:

https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12039
https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1873
https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11869
https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11851
https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11297
https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10186
https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8685
https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8680
https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8419
https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3831
https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=762


If anyone has untangled the Gordian Knot that is the Charms school of magic in DCSS, that would be great. But unfortunately there are a lot of problems with just making buffs permanent and/or implementing an autocast, as has been hashed out numerous times in the threads above.

I'm not locking this thread, or even trying to discourage people from discussing it, but just please be aware this topic is almost as old as the Tavern itself.

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TeshiAlair

Snake Sneak

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Post Monday, 28th April 2014, 22:57

Re: Permanent buffing

and into wrote:Gordian Knot


Great. Cut it. Problem solved.

Tomb Titivator

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Post Monday, 28th April 2014, 23:00

Re: Permanent buffing

Here's what I'd do. The buff's effectiveness is determined by raw spellpower. The buff will have a chance of failing every time it activates (so every turn for haste, every time it deflects a missile for deflect missiles) equal to your CURRENT spell failure, with a minimum of 1%. (So taking off your plate before casting doesn't do any good). Other than that, it's duration is unlimited.

Slime Squisher

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Post Monday, 28th April 2014, 23:18

Re: Permanent buffing

I think it is telling that you call for infinite duration and list as examples spells which are specifically balanced by way of short durations, and which are more interesting than most other Charms almost purely for that reason.

Between that obliviousness and the tiredness of this discussion, I'm not especially inclined to contribute. I'll just say the current version of rmsl is very awful and I am disgusted by the fact that I now learn it on literally every character who finds it and I really really really don't want any more spells like that.

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duvessa

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Post Monday, 28th April 2014, 23:50

Re: Permanent buffing

TheDefiniteArticle wrote:I'll just say the current version of rmsl is very awful and I am disgusted by the fact that I now learn it on literally every character who finds it and I really really really don't want any more spells like that.

So it's too good at low success rate? Maybe just mentioning that would be more productive than what you wrote. Coming up with a solution would be even better. For example there could be an additional chance for it to expire when you are attacked that is equal to the spell failure chance.

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Arrhythmia

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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 00:09

Re: Permanent buffing

Yet another plug for the Wind Wall spell I made to replace rmsl. It still repels missiles but it doesn't move after you cast it so it gets around many of the low level buff issues.

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Patashu

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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 04:20

Re: Permanent buffing

So it's too good at low success rate?...For example there could be an additional chance for it to expire

That "solution" does literally nothing to address the problem of being good at low success rates. The problem is "i can cast the spell outside combat" and your suggestion is something that only matters in combat; it is totally unrelated. But that problem is merely a side effect of my problem

The problem that I am concerned with is that self-buffs are not, in a vacuum, interesting effects (spells with downsides, such as Haste and Song of Slaying, do not fit into this category; they are actually "forms" in every important respect). Spells like Repel Missile and Phase Shift are made interesting only via costs, and infinite duration completely removes the most important cost: time. The fact that it takes a turn to cast was the one and only factor which deterred me from using Repel Missiles, and that has been removed. My solution would be "revert the infinite duration change and also remove item destruction because it makes spells like rmsl much more powerful/appealing than they have any right to be, and then maybe remove rmsl anyway because it is really that dumb". I did not mention my solution because naturally any call to remove or revert anything under any conditions is "unproductive". But I am discovering that I cannot win in that regard.

Phase Shift and Sure Blade in particular would be egregiously bad targets for infinite duration. Success rate and duration are literally the only limitations on Phase Shift (this design is the reason it is my favorite self-buff). And I have to assume anyone suggesting infinite duration Sure Blade does not actually know how Sure Blade works, although in fairness the in-game description doesn't help much.

Stoneskin/OzoArmour are a bit different because significant bonuses require major XP investment. However infinite duration would still allow small amounts of AC to be gained with no cost attached.

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dck, duvessa

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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 04:55

Re: Permanent buffing

TheDefiniteArticle wrote:I think it is telling that you call for infinite duration and list as examples spells which are specifically balanced by way of short durations, and which are more interesting than most other Charms almost purely for that reason.

Ozocubu's Armor isn't all that short; I never had a problem keeping it up permanently or having it wear out in the middle of a fight, except against fire attacks and until tedium sets in and I'm too lazy to keep at it.

I think Phase Shift lasts long enough that it can be kept up permanently too (once you've eliminated the hunger cost), although I haven't had nearly as much opportunity to try (particularly because that it's much more tedious). The MP cost of Phase Shift is what made me originally consider reduced MP regeneration, though; I can see how making Phase Shift a permabuff if the reduced MP regeneration is not used would be a much more drastic change.

I picked these three examples because they're the ones I've found tedious. I usually even find Sure Blade too tedious to deal with even when merely casting it at the beginning of a fight.

If some of them aren't good targets but others might be, then I opine the proposal was still useful.

Other spells on my list of spells that I find tedious are flight, swiftness, and deflect missiles, although the latter two have already been changed.



TheDefiniteArticle wrote: And I have to assume anyone suggesting infinite duration Sure Blade does not actually know how Sure Blade works, although in fairness the in-game description doesn't help much.

The actual formula for the bonus would obviously have to be changed. :P e.g. the bonus being based on spell power rather than how many times you spammed the spell before the fight. (and since I usually have sure blade on Spriggans, that can usually be as many times as I want it to be)

I assumed that if the idea was a good one, that it wouldn't simply be tacked onto anything at all without actually giving it due consideration; it wasn't worth spending the time to think about the fine details beforehand if nobody is even open to the idea of buffs reducing maximum MP.

Stoneskin/OzoArmour are a bit different because significant bonuses require major XP investment. However infinite duration would still allow small amounts of AC to be gained with no cost attached.

The maximum MP reduction is still a cost. Okay sure, it would be negligible for a character who never uses MP during combat, but is that really a problem?

Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 05:10

Re: Permanent buffing

FWIW I've basically done a 180 from how I used to feel about this. I think the best solution is for each buff to be looked at individually. Some are good, a number of them aren't the most interesting spells in the world, but hey, all spell schools have some like that.

Some of them are problematic. With the brand spells gone, the only ones that really stand out as problems, I think, are the following, albeit for somewhat different reasons:


Flight
(shouldn't boost stealth, unless that was already fixed recently, and maybe should have some small malus to render it not always good; affects autoexplore and some other stuff in unfortunate ways but really that's a consequence of water/lava. On the other hand, very removable if you make some other relatively small changes, since it is a much duplicated effect)

Warp Weapon/Excruciating Wounds
(should overwrite brands of non-artefact wielded weapons)

Condensation shield
(The bonus it provides is usually not good enough, in my experience, to be worth how fiddly it can be and the weird special casing. Remove that weirdness or the spell, IMO; it may also just be the case that it will be hard for any such spell to be worthwhile.)

Regeneration
(You often want to cast it outside of combat, routinely, to speed up HP recovery, for effectively nothing more than a small additional hunger cost... On the other hand it can help cut down on 5ing somewhat which is nice and helps make up for the repetition; on the other hand, highly desired for just about any character who isn't forbidden from magic/necromancy)

Oz's Armor / Stone Skin
(Maybe some people overspam it and find it tedious, I usually don't have a huge problem with that myself since I just cast it when I need it, but you could "form-ify" it a bit I suppose and give some downside so you don't want to keep it up constantly. The fact that AC bonus is linked to elemental skill gives weird specific break points, but on the other hand keeps its usefulness from being overly broad and desirable)

Repel Missiles / Deflect Missiles
(Intentionally designed to be cast almost always outside of combat, with all the issues this brings)

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TeshiAlair

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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 11:26

Re: Permanent buffing

TheDefiniteArticle wrote:That "solution" does literally nothing to address the problem of being good at low success rates. The problem is "i can cast the spell outside combat" and your suggestion is something that only matters in combat; it is totally unrelated.

I think it might help a little, because at some point it would become pretty pointless to use (at least changing armour to cast it and get a benefit with 100% failure rate would be pointless). Especially if the check was done before RMsl has an effect instead of after. Also, it could just as well be a chance of twice the failure rate to expire, in which case it would already be completely useless at 50% failure. Anyway, this was just an idea, maybe it wouldn't solve the actual problem.

TheDefiniteArticle wrote:I did not mention my solution because naturally any call to remove or revert anything under any conditions is "unproductive". But I am discovering that I cannot win in that regard.

Pointing out that buffs without costs are pretty silly is fine (well, there's always spell slots and skill training, but thats not relevant for the case of current RMsl). Also your explanation why you hate the new RMsl so much and think even old RMsl should be removed was very interesting. Saying "new RMsl is stupid I don't like it" is unproductive.

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Tuesday, 29th April 2014, 11:46

Re: Permanent buffing

I can't really see how any of those criticisms don't apply to old rMsl equally. Yeah, it costs you more turns to cast the old one, but a few out-of-combat turns are hardly valuable in most cases.

If the issue is that rMsl provides too great a benefit for its XP cost (which is basically nothing, so this is probably true) you could increase its level to a point where it needs a non-trivial investment.

Tomb Titivator

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Post Wednesday, 30th April 2014, 14:19

Re: Permanent buffing

As someone who feels obligated to keep stoneskin up always when I'm training earth magic(I did it with old swiftness too), I'd say it's probably a good idea to either remove or make buffs permanent/a toggle, at least the ones you can feasibly keep up forever. Like, if a spell is too strong to have permanently, reduce the effect until it isn't, or remove it entirely(assuming a sane drawback doesn't reveal itself). Stoneskin is effectively a permanent buff with a really bad interface, with a small chance of it wearing off in combat. Doing nothing because we don't have a great solution seems strictly worse than making it explicitly permanent right now and thinking up a drawback or removing it later when a decision is made.

Personally, if spells like that were made permanent, I'd kind of rather they be trinkets you have to keep in your inventory(but not equip) rather than spells. Then you can make them rare without affecting everything else in their books, and inventory slots seem like a similarly effective opportunity cost that applies even to characters who don't cast spells other than charms.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 30th April 2014, 19:49

Re: Permanent buffing

khalil wrote:Here's what I'd do. The buff's effectiveness is determined by raw spellpower. The buff will have a chance of failing every time it activates (so every turn for haste, every time it deflects a missile for deflect missiles) equal to your CURRENT spell failure, with a minimum of 1%. (So taking off your plate before casting doesn't do any good). Other than that, it's duration is unlimited.

regeneration is balanced around low duration, but as a level 3 spell it's quite quick to get to 1%, which would let it last for a very long time.

Tomb Titivator

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Post Wednesday, 30th April 2014, 21:00

Re: Permanent buffing

tasonir wrote:regeneration is balanced around low duration, but as a level 3 spell it's quite quick to get to 1%, which would let it last for a very long time.

Point. Forgot that not all buffs have equal duration. Idea amendment:
Each time the effect happens, the chance of the buff failing is equal to spell failure + (arbitrary number)*(number of times effect has happened). This allows for shorter duration buffs, with spells like Haste and Death's Door getting a higher arbitrary number.
Also, Flight (if that can be considered a buff) would function as it does now, because having flight fail while you're over water sucks, but having it fail without a warning on the second turn after casting would suck so much more.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 30th April 2014, 23:06

Re: Permanent buffing

regeneration is only low duration if you start using it way earlier than you are supposed to, like tasonir does

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