Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

User avatar

Dis Charger

Posts: 2056

Joined: Wednesday, 7th August 2013, 08:25

Post Wednesday, 7th August 2013, 15:45

Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

Sethygir, much like Jiyva; can only be acquired in the mid to late game and likewise is a god that is actually difficult to acquire; but very worth it for certain builds. Got this idea after thinking about what there is and isn't in gods in the game. There are two gods associated with necromancy and one with 'destructive magic' (mostly conjurations) as well as Sif Muna, who mostly grants spellbooks; what there isn't are elementally associated gods; which are some of the most common gods in the real world (second to only 'creator' and 'sun' gods). I think adding such could be a great addition, but I wanted to start on the most underplayed element in the game, water. Note that this is a rather large concept.

Flavor:
Sethygir, the Flooded.

Sethygir is the god of the seas and aquatic life. Most the world has forgotten of its influence, after it was sealed beneath the waves and her magic banned, due to an attempt by it's followers to flood the known world. Having discovered i's temple, you may choose to act as her envoy, releasing her power into the world once more. If that is your path, you are encouraged to spread the waters of life around the dungeon and destroy users of Earth magic and forbidden from attacking aquatic life. In return, you are granted faculty over the seas and the lost art of water magic.

A long-lost altar of Sethygir; preserved by corals growing upon its surface; it's quite a beautiful sight.


Appreciates:
Winning battles against Amphibious or Land-Dwelling creatures while standing in shallow or deep water.
Destroying creatures who use Earth elemental attacks.
Using Water Magic.

Depreciates:
Spending time on land. (-1 piety every 600 turns or so)

Restrictions:
Sethygir doesn't accept worship from Lava Orcs or Gargoyles. Earth elemental spells must be forgotten to be accepted as a worshipper.

Abilities:
[-] Baptized by Water
Aquatic creatures become docile. This includes merfolk, but doesn't include amphibious animals often spawned away from water like newts and snakes. (Passive)
Water Magic spells can be memorized by hitting M at any time (with no spellbook); the level of available spells changes with piety. Only 'Water Ball' is available from the start.
[*] Swimming [Species]
Your aptitudes are boosted + Piety/50 while in water. Movement and attack speed are boosted + Piety/4%. (Passive)
Inversely aptitudes are reduced -1 on land and movement and attack speed -25%. (Passive)
Stacks with amphibious races boosts; other races have their penalties removed.
Deep water is now passable for non-aquatic races.
[**] Sunken [Species]
Level 2/3 spells become available at random.
[***] Water Bearer
Root of all life - Random aquatic creature is spawned in target Deep Water Square. Power varies with Invocations skill. (Small MP and Piety Cost)
Level 4/5 spells become available at random.
[****] Flood Artist
Flood - The current floor is flooded; some walls erode and become land. Some land becomes shallow water (pure or polluted); lava may become land; shallow water becomes deep water. Level appropriate aquatic friendlies are summoned in Deep Water squares. Similar to, but not quite as random as 'Corruption'; making more huge pools than random squares and still leaving major sections dry. Amount of land drenched varies with Invocations Skill. (Invocation, Large Food and Piety Cost).
[*****] Aqua Pura
Level 6/7 spells become available at random.
[******] Torrential Acolyte
Level 8/9 spells become available at random.

Location:
Sethygir can only be found in a unique branch Sunken Temple, which is found in a vault in the Shoals [2/3] or Swamp [2/3]. The branch -is- hostile, containing many Merfolk Aquamancers, which become friendly when the god is accepted; meaning the preferred way of completing the stage is to rush to the altar, like a Vegas wedding.

Water Magic:
Water Magic (usually) causes non-elemental damage and has the unique ability of spreading itself. Abilities may only be used while standing in water, often using up that water as a cost as well as normal MP and tend to turn target spaces into shallow water. This leads to players who wish to be adept in it needing to lead enemies back to the water in order to do damage or to move water with them. Due to requiring water to be there to use spells, it avoids needing to conjure new water; making what would normally be Conjurations school rely solely on water school; though cross-school spells still exist. Spells cause less damage to aquatic creatures and more to fire elementals.

Partial Listing (Enough to get an idea; open to input):
  • Water Ball (Level 1) Causes very weak non-elemental damage on contact; dries up a single shallow water space cast from. Target space and one space behind it become shallow water.
  • Current (level 3) Target squares in a straight line from caster (must all be water squares) have a strong current modifier temporarily, pushing monsters around within them (can be used in corridors to push monsters away or pull archers to close range.
  • Whirl Gateway (level 5 [also: Translocation]) Must be standing in deep water to have effect. Produces a portal. Entering the portal transports you to a random deep water space on the same level.
  • Primal Wave (Level 6) [Existing, currently Enemy-Only spell with effect changes] Pushes all water in 3x3 area forward to target, causing damage to all those in the path; damage varies with amount of water in area.
  • Hurricane (level 9) All water in a 5 radius becomes a huge area of effect damage cone. Damage varies with the amount of water available, greatest if all squares in the radius are deep water.. Grants temporary flight atop the storm until all the water falls down in a new location (short duration). Upon falling, on dry land some of the outermost squares may become shallow water, where they were deep before.


[Note: I was debating with myself whether to create this new school of magic or make it all invocations; arguments on either position are welcome; as is straight up saying that bringing the water element out is rubbish. I'm open to criticism.]
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}

Dis Charger

Posts: 2064

Joined: Wednesday, 9th January 2013, 19:44

Post Wednesday, 7th August 2013, 16:05

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

bcadren wrote:Inversely aptitudes are reduced -1 on land and movement and attack speed -25%. (Passive)

:shock:
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 431

Joined: Tuesday, 13th September 2011, 17:34

Post Wednesday, 7th August 2013, 16:06

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

God of dragging every single enemy on the floor to the one square of shallow water?
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 762

Joined: Thursday, 25th April 2013, 02:43

Post Wednesday, 7th August 2013, 16:17

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

bcadren wrote:Sethygir, much like Jiyva; can only be acquired in the mid to late game and likewise is a god that is actually difficult to acquire; but very worth it for certain builds.
Why restrict it to the early game? Not being in the temple means less people see it.
bcadren wrote:Winning battles against Amphibious or Land-Dwelling creatures while standing in shallow or deep water.
ontoclasm wrote:God of dragging every single enemy on the floor to the one square of shallow water?
You can see this is a bad idea.
bcadren wrote:Aquatic creatures become docile. This includes merfolk, but doesn't include amphibious animals often spawned away from water like newts and snakes. (Passive)
On one hand I think this sounds cool and interesting, but on the other hand we have too many gods which make a paricular branch trivial (Jiyva and Lugonu)
bcadren wrote:Your aptitudes are boosted + Piety/50 while in water. Movement and attack speed are boosted + Piety/4%. (Passive)
Inversely aptitudes are reduced -1 on land and movement and attack speed -25%. (Passive)
1) Apititudes are the worst possible bonus. Use stat boosts, skill level boosts, or better yet a unique bonus.
2) The land restriction is too large
3) Making you slow is Chei's thing. Don't reduce movement speed.
bcadren wrote:Location:
Sethygir can only be found in a unique branch Sunken Temple, which is found in a vault in the Shoals [2/3] or Swamp [2/3]. The branch -is- hostile, containing many Merfolk Aquamancers, which become friendly when the god is accepted; meaning the preferred way of completing the stage is to rush to the altar, like a Vegas wedding.
Adding a new branch of just one god is a bad idea. We can get the flavor across with just regular vaults.
bcadren wrote:[Note: I was debating with myself whether to create this new school of magic or make it all invocations; arguments on either position are welcome; as is straight up saying that bringing the water element out is rubbish. I'm open to criticism.]
Use invocations. Making it magic prevents the species bad at magic from using this god.
On IRC my nick is reaverb. I play online under the name reaver, though.

Dis Charger

Posts: 2064

Joined: Wednesday, 9th January 2013, 19:44

Post Wednesday, 7th August 2013, 17:05

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

Most of the game you are on land, so having any mali while on land is definitely not worth it. For the same reason, restricting your abilities to being in water is mostly useless, too.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 246

Joined: Friday, 22nd February 2013, 15:18

Post Wednesday, 7th August 2013, 17:09

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

I definitely think that Hurricane ability would need massive retooling to be worthwhile. The only situations I could see it coming into play anywhere near full power would be the Shoals, the Swamp, a handful of Dungeon rooms, and Cocytus (and that's assuming someone got their spell power up that high). As much as I like the idea of hydrostorming Antaeus into oblivion, it shouldn't be quite so ultra-situational.
"Making sure all that misinformation is grammatically correct since August 2011."

If you have any recommendations* regarding the Crawl Wiki, message me and I'll look into it.

* - Deletion of the Crawl Wiki is not a good recommendation.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6230

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Wednesday, 7th August 2013, 17:16

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

Well, note that in addition to hurricane, he's also giving you the ability to *create* water, so you in practise could spend a round making water, then cast your hurricane.
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!

Dis Charger

Posts: 2064

Joined: Wednesday, 9th January 2013, 19:44

Post Wednesday, 7th August 2013, 17:19

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

Oh and making all the spells be invocations will greatly simplify implementing them and there is no reason not to.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 246

Joined: Friday, 22nd February 2013, 15:18

Post Wednesday, 7th August 2013, 18:11

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

True, but creating a couple tiles of water at a time would take quite a few turns if you wanted to cover the entire LOS...
"Making sure all that misinformation is grammatically correct since August 2011."

If you have any recommendations* regarding the Crawl Wiki, message me and I'll look into it.

* - Deletion of the Crawl Wiki is not a good recommendation.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3618

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 12:43

Post Wednesday, 7th August 2013, 18:43

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

bcadren: Nice in-depth proposal!

You have correctly observed that gods are not tied to elements (so far). If at all, gods have been tied to branches (Beogh, Jiyva, Lugonu).
The water magic idea is a cool concept, but it certainly is easier to at least start with invocations.

However, ontoclasm's one-liner hits the nail on the head: the way the god works, there will be lots of luring monsters to watery places. By the way, as far as I understand, this is why the land penalty is slower movement speed: this way, the luring will be not as trivial. (I am not sure if luring can ever be made interesting, but your idea is certainly an approach.) In any case, the god might actually be alright with this mechanic, but then surely not as a temple god.

I don't believe that all gods have to be created equal, so it's alright if some conducts hit harder (this is as with species: challenges are alright!). Here are some other ideas for water-themed conducts:
  • MP/HP regeneration on land: could be slower at 0 and * piety, zero at ** piety, and become negative at ***. In other words, at higher piety you would not only not regenerate HP on land, you'd actually lose it! This can only work if you can create water on the spot if you're in a pinch, which thankfully is a god power -- but it costs piety.
  • Using consumables on land has a chance to not work (the item is not lost, but the turn is): "This action works better on water!". On water, it always work and may even take no turn.
  • You have shoutitis on land: "You let of a scream of pain as you step on the earthen floor."

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 508

Joined: Sunday, 16th June 2013, 14:01

Post Wednesday, 7th August 2013, 21:12

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

When you say "Appreciates using water magic", do you mean killing with, damaging with or just using water magic? If a god gave piety for just using magic it becomes a very easy way to grind piety.

I like the concept of the god but rather than focus too much on making players avoid land and dragging monsters to water, how about your god forces you to fight in water. A passive ability that essentially is a small water halo. This will might need something to avoid steam cloud abuse.

Dis Charger

Posts: 2064

Joined: Wednesday, 9th January 2013, 19:44

Post Wednesday, 7th August 2013, 21:42

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

Slowness will make the game too hard. It's not like he has to give this extreme penatly. This kind of challenge is kind of unreasonable. Chei is a different story as he gives you stat boost, doesn't decrease attack speed and gives abilities that you can use at any time.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6230

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Wednesday, 7th August 2013, 21:58

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

Indeed perhaps he could cause an "aura of shallow water" to be around the player, and it could cause the same movement penalties it always does (Making it slow both you and the creatures around you) without adding the attacking speed penalties, perhaps the player could move at normal speed through 'deep' water (preserving some of the usefulness of standing water)

Additionally, to reduce fog-spam, you could have Sethygir "dislike" it when you turned his nice water into steam, losing piety for a fog cloud seems reasonable enough (You lose enough and you don't have your water aura any longer.)
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3618

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 12:43

Post Wednesday, 7th August 2013, 22:07

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

I don't really see why a movement speed decrease should be so unbearable: nagas are a thing. Yes, it's a noticeable conduct, but the player knows it beforehand and can adapt in advance. That's not to say it's the ultimate conduct, but I believe that noticeable conducts can really drive a god.

Also, to set up the obligatory bikeshed: Your god can under no circumstances have S as initial! Press ?/g in the game to see which letters are still available. (Note that G is sort of reserved for the gold god.)

Dis Charger

Posts: 2064

Joined: Wednesday, 9th January 2013, 19:44

Post Wednesday, 7th August 2013, 22:17

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

No, I mean.. 95%(I made up the number) of the game is land and 95% of the game player will be slowed down, his attack speed including. And he won't be receiving any boosts at the same time, unlike chei. I think it's really bad.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1217

Joined: Sunday, 14th April 2013, 04:01

Post Thursday, 8th August 2013, 01:30

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

Here's an idea- what if you could cast/invoke all of his abilities from water squares only. You could start with a 1 radius pool of water around you, and as your piety increases, it would increase in size. This way, water naturally found in the dungeon would be a bonus, but for all the other times, you would have a range determined by your piety. Additionally, areas like Swamp and Shoal could be balanced by simply giving the monsters water resistance, which would make sense anyway.
Three wins: Gargoyle Earth Elementalist of Ash, Ogre Fighter of Ru, Deep Dwarf Fighter of Makhleb (0.16 bugbuild :( )
User avatar

Dis Charger

Posts: 2056

Joined: Wednesday, 7th August 2013, 08:25

Post Thursday, 8th August 2013, 04:13

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

Let's see about responding to everyone.

First off I'm going to state that this god just came out of trying to flesh out two thoughts which were:
1. Mf lore mentions a lost art of water magic and the merfolk enemies of the Shoals use aquamancy; it'd be cool to have a player equivalent. Water elementals and elemental wellsprings also push forth the idea of the 'missing elemental'.
2. There are two gods of Necromancy (Yredelemnul with Necromantic arts as invocations and Kikubaaqudgha who assists using the magic school); two gods of 'destructive magic' (Makhleb who uses invocations and Vehumet who helps with the conjurations school); and Elyvilon who teaches the unique healing school (which is not available outside of his invocations), but yet none associated directly with the elements; which are some of the most common real life gods.

I wanted to play with the most underplayed element that still does have existing roots in the game and see what I came up with and this was the first draft; that's where I'll start.

First off to answer (pretty much everyone)
[Amnesiac] Most of the game you are on land, so having any mali while on land is definitely not worth it. For the same reason, restricting your abilities to being in water is mostly useless, too.

Ability to generate water needs to be made easier for this to be valid. I realize that. With a Mf character I started dragging back particularly powerful characters through two floors of kiting to get them to the deep water, which gave me an advantage. Some kiting/dragging as part of the strategy is probably fine, but it when it could be 50 squares or greater, I see the point. I'm not quite sure.

-Reaver-
Why restrict it to the early game? Not being in the temple means less people see it.

Was mostly lore reasons around the god being tied to the Shoals; was trying to make the god worthwhile enough to counterbalance this; but apparently I failed, for now at least.

Aptitudes are the worst possible bonus. Use stat boosts, skill level boosts, or better yet a unique bonus.


Picked aptitudes because no other god was using them. Personally I think aptitudes are valuable information. Particularly when picking which skills to focus on in early to mid game . I do think a large enough aptitude bonus could be a worthy god bonus in mid-game gods. I'm sure something more water themed could be found though...

Use invocations. Making it magic prevents the species bad at magic from using this god.

Some gods have all passives and no invocations; some have all invocations and no passives, some have a mix. I think unique magic is a bit more lore-interesting and probably gameplay interesting, so that's my lean; though I understand if, simply put, all invocations is much easier than unique school.

Siegurn
"aura of shallow water"

Interesting. Would essentially mean AoE slowness to enemies in melee range, but a disadvantage against spellcasters and ranged foes.

Dpeg
dpeg wrote:You have correctly observed that gods are not tied to elements (so far). If at all, gods have been tied to branches (Beogh, Jiyva, Lugonu).
The water magic idea is a cool concept, but it certainly is easier to at least start with invocations.

However, ontoclasm's one-liner hits the nail on the head: the way the god works, there will be lots of luring monsters to watery places. By the way, as far as I understand, this is why the land penalty is slower movement speed: this way, the luring will be not as trivial. (I am not sure if luring can ever be made interesting, but your idea is certainly an approach.) In any case, the god might actually be alright with this mechanic, but then surely not as a temple god.

I don't believe that all gods have to be created equal, so it's alright if some conducts hit harder (this is as with species: challenges are alright!). Here are some other ideas for water-themed conducts:
  • MP/HP regeneration on land: could be slower at 0 and * piety, zero at ** piety, and become negative at ***. In other words, at higher piety you would not only not regenerate HP on land, you'd actually lose it! This can only work if you can create water on the spot if you're in a pinch, which thankfully is a god power -- but it costs piety.
  • Using consumables on land has a chance to not work (the item is not lost, but the turn is): "This action works better on water!". On water, it always work and may even take no turn.
  • You have shoutitis on land: "You let of a scream of pain as you step on the earthen floor."


Mostly positive with new interesting ideas. I hadn't really through of it as a -challenge- god; it seems like something that would be completely for challenge would be almost all negative; which wasn't the intention. Keeping on land penalties, whilst making water generation easier (though still a lot at once would only be possible with a powerful invocation) is probably the way to go.

Also, to set up the obligatory bikeshed: Your god can under no circumstances have S as initial! Press ?/g in the game to see which letters are still available. (Note that G is sort of reserved for the gold god.)

Current name is an amalgam of Sekath (Egyptian god of Storms); Tethys (Greek god of Water) and Aegir (Norse god of the Sea and Water Giants). I don't currently have other name concepts; but as long as it's pronounceable and semi-thematic, it's cool.

TeshiAlair
Here's an idea- what if you could cast/invoke all of his abilities from water squares only. You could start with a 1 radius pool of water around you, and as your piety increases, it would increase in size. This way, water naturally found in the dungeon would be a bonus, but for all the other times, you would have a range determined by your piety. Additionally, areas like Swamp and Shoal could be balanced by simply giving the monsters water resistance, which would make sense anyway.

I'll admit part of the original idea of water magic was all abilities needed to be standing on water to function; OR all water abilities draw from a second magic school, unless standing on water, which it draws from instead. Like a Conjurations/Water Spell would act as if Conjurations was a perfect 27 and give a slight attack power boost over standard if enough water was around (killing the need to conjure more).
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}

Dis Charger

Posts: 2064

Joined: Wednesday, 9th January 2013, 19:44

Post Thursday, 8th August 2013, 04:38

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

Invocations are mostly used for god abilities. Logically speaking, I don't see any reason to make abilities of this god not Invocations, unless water magic will be added for use by anyone. I mean, in this case Invocations will work as a magic school without a need to implement something new/unecessary.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6230

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Thursday, 8th August 2013, 05:48

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

bcadren wrote:
Aptitudes are the worst possible bonus. Use stat boosts, skill level boosts, or better yet a unique bonus.


Picked aptitudes because no other god was using them. Personally I think aptitudes are valuable information. Particularly when picking which skills to focus on in early to mid game . I do think a large enough aptitude bonus could be a worthy god bonus in mid-game gods. I'm sure something more water themed could be found though...


Ash used to give aptitude bonuses. It was decided that giving bonuses to training skills led to a god who was optimal to pick, use for a while, then abandon (when you didn't need to train any more) Giving long term, permanent bonuses which last beyond abandoning said god is generally something to avoid.
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!
User avatar

Dis Charger

Posts: 2056

Joined: Wednesday, 7th August 2013, 08:25

Post Thursday, 8th August 2013, 06:53

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

Siegurt wrote:
bcadren wrote:
Aptitudes are the worst possible bonus. Use stat boosts, skill level boosts, or better yet a unique bonus.


Picked aptitudes because no other god was using them. Personally I think aptitudes are valuable information. Particularly when picking which skills to focus on in early to mid game . I do think a large enough aptitude bonus could be a worthy god bonus in mid-game gods. I'm sure something more water themed could be found though...


Ash used to give aptitude bonuses. It was decided that giving bonuses to training skills led to a god who was optimal to pick, use for a while, then abandon (when you didn't need to train any more) Giving long term, permanent bonuses which last beyond abandoning said god is generally something to avoid.
I suppose the way to counter that is major EXP loss as a form of wrath; but I see your point.

Amnesiac wrote:Invocations are mostly used for god abilities. Logically speaking, I don't see any reason to make abilities of this god not Invocations, unless water magic will be added for use by anyone. I mean, in this case Invocations will work as a magic school without a need to implement something new/unecessary.
The lore-reason for this is water magic being the 'forgotten merfolk' school of magic; ergo it's hard to learn and train it. Yet, except great feats like raising the tides in the shoals or flooding a floor of a dungeon it's not asking a god for help (at least lore-wise)...

Just quick thoughts on letting it spread beyond single god: It could be a mid to late game answer to Venom magic being as venom doesn't have any high level spells and is less effective in late game, due to only affecting organics; this could be tooled to have virtually no low level spells and affecting inorganics more strongly; effectively some ignore armor resistance and being non-elemental would allow this. Since magic countertrains; both Earth and Fire would hinder Water magic if it was readily available.
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Thursday, 8th August 2013, 09:16

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

Siegurt wrote:Ash used to give aptitude bonuses.

Ash used to give XP bonus. Aptitude bonus has never been a thing, it's a bit complicated to implement and doesn't scale well (too weak early, too strong late). Skill bonus is implemented and works well. There's no point in implementing an effect with a different mechanism and a similar outcome.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 830

Joined: Wednesday, 17th April 2013, 13:28

Post Thursday, 8th August 2013, 09:18

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

bcadren wrote:1. Mf lore mentions a lost art of water magic and the merfolk enemies of the Shoals use aquamancy; it'd be cool to have a player equivalent. Water elementals and elemental wellsprings also push forth the idea of the 'missing elemental'.


Yup, aquamancers do some pretty cool stuff. Water nymphs too have some water-based attacks. Agreed that it would be nice to have them as player abilities.

Wouldn't this god be sort of a no-brainer for Mf though? And maybe Op too. For the amphibious species, water-based conduct wouldn't really be a penalty, and Mf get extra movement and EV bonus in water besides. An "aura of shallow water" kind of thing would definitely be too good for Mf.

Like most everyone else, I think if you're restricting water abilities to one god, then it would be better done as Invocations rather than another branch of magic. I don't think the lore is a big deal - you can always flavor it as "you channel water magic through your god" or some such. Fedhas abilities, for example, could have given rise to a whole new branch of Plant magic. But since they're restricted to one god, invocations for them makes sense.

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 508

Joined: Sunday, 16th June 2013, 14:01

Post Thursday, 8th August 2013, 11:08

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

DracheReborn wrote:Wouldn't this god be sort of a no-brainer for Mf though? And maybe Op too. For the amphibious species, water-based conduct wouldn't really be a penalty, and Mf get extra movement and EV bonus in water besides. An "aura of shallow water" kind of thing would definitely be too good for Mf.


Some gods are good for some species, like Sif and mummies, Trog and kobolds, Nemlex and spriggans. I think any water manipulation will be strong for merefolk.

Blades Runner

Posts: 546

Joined: Saturday, 7th May 2011, 02:43

Post Thursday, 8th August 2013, 12:33

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

^ Merefolk? You mean Spriggans, then? ;)

I agree it's okay for gods to be especially good for some species, but then the 'aura of water' thing definitely needs to be addressed as it's a pretty hugetastic buff for Mf. I had an idea where it's an aura of condensation/mist instead, and it takes multiple turns for enough water to accumulate in a square that it will change to shallow water. That would reduce the OPness for Mf but may turn out to be grindy (encourages camping and luring. Luring is a good tactic in general, but Crawl tries to discourage camping.)
User avatar

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 50

Joined: Monday, 20th December 2010, 06:21

Post Thursday, 8th August 2013, 15:41

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

I've always loved the concepts of a sea god and water magic (water magic seems to always get turned into ice magic instead). Here are a few other ideas for water powers:

Protective Hydrosphere: You are surrounded by swirling waters. Incoming attacks suffer a major to-hit penalty, particularly lighter weapons/attacks (if that's possible to distinguish). Arrows and darts have a chance to be outright deflected. Outgoing attacks suffer a minor to-hit penalty, as control over the water isn't perfect.

Drown: Force water into the target's lungs, resulting in either Slow, Paralysis, or Constriction effects. Whichever is deemed most appropriate, or perhaps a randomized pick from all three - the idea being that it's hard to do or concentrate on anything else when you're trying to cough water out of your lungs and unable to breathe. Only works on creatures that have lungs (and no waterbreathing abilities of course - merfolk are immune).

Drowning Globe: Momentarily surround a 3x3 area of effect (or larger?) in a large globe of water, essentialy an area-of-effect Drown as above.

Blinding Spray: Shoot a jet of briney seawater into the eyes of your target. Temporarily greatly reduces their to-hit and they may move and attack randomly. Perhaps simply make it cause Confusion if that will simplify things. Otherwise, a nice source of pseudo-confusion on creatures that are normally immune to mental confusion, but have eyes.

Sea Mist: Fog effect.

Summon Whelk: Summon a giant sea-snail ally from a large deep water area that has a very strong AC shell, which the whelk can retreat into when taking a significant pounding or at low health. The normally-aquatic snail absorbs electricity and will occasionally emit lightning attacks when struck, particularly when retreated into its shell. ... okay, not really on this one.

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1888

Joined: Saturday, 9th July 2011, 20:57

Post Thursday, 8th August 2013, 17:23

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

ontoclasm wrote:God of dragging every single enemy on the floor to the one square of shallow water?


One time I was thinking about a god of the sea, and then ran into this basic issue. So after some thought I switched it around and started thinking of a god of dryness and dessication, which I haven't gotten very far with either.

There's elements in this god I like, but inventing a whole new school of water magic just for a god seems goofy. Perhaps instead the sea god could have a non-guaranteed distribution of Invocations, so you get one random low-level water power, one medium one, one high-level one, from a list of several options. Though I'm not sure that fits the flavor.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 47

Joined: Monday, 25th March 2013, 16:30

Post Sunday, 11th August 2013, 17:05

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

This could be cool.

1. God powers work with Invo. No exceptions!

2. I don't like the water aura; especially if it's a permanent effect. (You could have an aura that suppresses fire magic/extinguishes flames, though).
An invocable ability to create water/deep water, maybe with a few friendly fish and such; the opposite of Fedhas's sunlight power.
The power to damage/weaken fiery enemies in LOS. Maybe this should create steam. Maybe this should happen automatically with the aura.
Powered up scrolls of fog, or an invocable fog/mist ability?
Water-themed gift mutations/equipment/allies? I could see Seth dropping you a few water elementals if you get hurt too badly, like Jiyva does with slimes.
(I wouldn't recommend this, but Seth could offer a modified tornado spell/ability in line with the hurricane thing. It would have to be expensive.)

3. Seth's not a "god of merfolk", so merfolk shouldn't become friendly or even neutral; the Shoals only generates 50% of the time so each game would essentially be either great or terrible.
(I think this is also a problem with the current Crypt/Forest for TSO worshippers, but there are plenty of other demonic branches so it's not so bad.)
Instead, make just fish become neutral. That would be a moderate buff without trivializing a branch (leeches/worms/hydras unnaffected. Jellyfish could go either way, it doesn't matter).

4. I like the idea of invocable abilites only working when the player is in water/ with water around, but I think that would be badly tedious and involve too much luring.
Instead, provide a movement speed bonus in water (and maybe the ability to swim?). This wouldn't encourage luring, but it could help you run away/be more convenient in watery branches.
Do NOT provide instant regen in water, because then you'd want to fight in it all the time. (A small bonus to regen in water would be nice. It would save resting time without being good for fights.)

5. The name can't start with an S, huh?
I'm thinking something like Nereus from the Greek root. Nereus was a 'real' guy so we can't use him (now that I think of it, he should be a unique aquatic shapeshifter, though).
Or something Aztec, for that 'lost ancient knowledge' feel.

6. Piety: the first thought is that Seth would appreciate drowning monsters, but that would be a terrible mechanic. Luring all day long.
Instead, simple corpse sacrifice is always a good mechanic. Drowned enemies should always be considered sacrificed.
Killing users of fire and fiery monsters (Lava Orcs/Djinn wouldn't be accepted for worship, huh), sacrificing fiery weapons, etc. would all work if Seth's flavour is opposed to fire.
If the above, you would face penance for using a Lamp/Wand of Fire, scroll of immolation, etc.
And piety decays over time as normal.

7. Shoutitis on land would work. Also consider a faster metabolism on land; staying in water wouldn't help you, but it would be a land-based penalty.
If either of these, consider making auto-explore prefer water spaces over land. This would prevent unnecessary shouting/hunger in Swamp and such.

Frankly the biggest problem I'm having is a hard time thinking of benefits this god can provide, that don't make me want to lure all monsters into water. Right now his benefits are weak at best.
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 431

Joined: Tuesday, 13th September 2011, 17:34

Post Sunday, 11th August 2013, 18:37

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

Tarp wrote:God powers work with Invo. No exceptions!

Uh, that's not even remotely true. Nemelex's powers use Evocations, while Kikubaaqudgha's use Necro. Trog, Xom, and Vehumet use no skills at all.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 47

Joined: Monday, 25th March 2013, 16:30

Post Sunday, 11th August 2013, 21:22

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

ontoclasm wrote:
Tarp wrote:God powers work with Invo. No exceptions!

Uh, that's not even remotely true. Nemelex's powers use Evocations, while Kikubaaqudgha's use Necro. Trog, Xom, and Vehumet use no skills at all.

I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that.

Dis Charger

Posts: 2064

Joined: Wednesday, 9th January 2013, 19:44

Post Sunday, 11th August 2013, 23:16

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

But making it invocations makes sense anyway.
User avatar

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 50

Joined: Monday, 20th December 2010, 06:21

Post Monday, 12th August 2013, 02:55

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

I'd say invocations rather than go through the fuss of making a new Water Magic skill. I imagine it'd be easier to implement and I see no reason not to go that route, unless Water Magic is going to be somehow available to people outside worshipping this deity.

Hrm, now I want to hack this in myself. Time to fetch the codemonkey wrench and figure out how DCSS works.

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 21

Joined: Monday, 12th August 2013, 09:47

Post Monday, 12th August 2013, 11:09

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

Hi,

First time poster but some time lurker, I think this is an interesting concept for a god (as OP notes, "god of the sea" is an extremely common trope in Mythology that hasn't been implemented in Crawl yet). However apart from one branch (Swamp/Shoals) and the occasionnal pond Dungeon/Lair level, these abilities would seem pretty minimal or encourage luring/grinding.

I think a possible way to combat this is to make this the god of Waves and Winds (and now you can start his name with a W, which I believe is available). He would offer some water-based abilities making Swamp/Shoals easier, but also offer some things when there's no water around. Here is a tentative sketch of what it could look like:

Appreciates:

Giving corpses to the sea (by praying). This creates a pool of shallow water. Monsters drowned are automatically sacrificed.
Killing fire or earth-based monsters.
Sacrificing fire or earth-based items (wands of fire, staf of fire/earth, weapons of flaming.... but NOT things that only give rF+)

Depreciates:
Using Fire or Earth magic
Using Fire or Earth items
Casting Statue Form (excommunication)

Restrictions:

Doesn't accept worship from Lava Orcs, Gargoyles or Djiin. Red/Mottled Draconians can worship him but he doesn't like it when they use their breath weapon. Pale Draconians are fine.

Abilities:
[-] Baptized by Water
Water-based animals become docile. This does not include any monster that can survive on land. (Passive)
Flying animals and insects become docile. (Passive)
You can swim in deep water (same penalties as Gray Draconian unless already amphibious). (Passive)
You can pray on corpses to drown them in a pool of shallow water.
[*] Flowing [Species]
You no longer incur any penalties while in shallow or deep water. (Passive)
You disperse Mephtic, Poison, Miasma, Steam, Mist and Fog clouds by walking in them. (Passive)
[**] Galerider
You get a EV boost while flying (similar to Tengu). (Passive)
You get a regen boost while in or over water. (Passive)
You can walk on the wind (casts Flying + Swiftness on you but ends if you stop moving). (2MP, Food)
[***] Tidemaster
You can create a pond of water around you. Its size and depth scales with Piety. Some friendly water-based animals (dependent on Piety) may be generated in it. (4MP, Food, Piety)
[****] Flood Artist
Deflect Missiles (Passive)
[*****] Acolyte of Tempests
Tornado. Power level on piety alone is fairly weak but rises for each water tile in sight. (8 MP, Food, Piety)
[******] Stormbringer
(No new abilities)

The idea is that this god would fit very well a character oriented on evasion and kiting. Ranged attackers will like it better, but the restriction on Fire Magic is not so easy to ignore.
It does provide some benefits in Water (regen and a better Tornado) but not so much that you want to lose time bringing enemies there all the time, as any hit they might land in the meantime would negate the regeneration, and Tornado is overkill (and too expensive) in most cases. Mostly, it lets you ignore all the downsides of Water, which does contribute to making Swamp/Shoals way easier.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6230

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Monday, 12th August 2013, 15:26

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

Note if he makes water-based creatures docile, he should disapprove of you attacking them.
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!

Dungeon Dilettante

Posts: 1

Joined: Tuesday, 13th August 2013, 03:17

Post Tuesday, 13th August 2013, 03:26

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

5ubbak wrote:Giving corpses to the sea (by praying). This creates a pool of shallow water. Monsters drowned are automatically sacrificed.


This was my first thought. The dragging enemies to shallow water gameplay seems a bit tedious, so creating water is a necessity. Water aura is too strong, and making water at will totally overlaps on fedhas if it is free, but making it based on corpses is very in line with other gods. Like with Death Knights, you have to plan ahead in order to bring the god's strength onto a floor at the expense of food.

I also like the idea of this god being a "Caster" god, in that its invocations give you access to a small variety of spells and effects like a school of magic. It is a niche that isn't well represented. Most gods get one, maybe two invocations, and none of them are meant to be any substitute for spellcasting. I disagree with it having to be tied totally to invocations, though. If we assume this god is going to be post temple, then it will need to be geared towards endgame. I think that giving characters access to a school of magic and some swimming bonuses could be well worth it and be a viable later game choice, at the cost of sinking exp into a new skill. Suddenly that MiFi can totally bypass spellcasting failure from heavy armour and get a variety of spells for a (relatively) small investment.

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 264

Joined: Friday, 26th April 2013, 17:05

Post Wednesday, 14th August 2013, 05:55

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

Anyway I think you should require water to be able to cast your water spell. Either on target square or square you are standing on (some times both) You should have ablity to invoke rain which cost some piety but creates water around you so you can start using your spells.

Examples of spells:

Water blast: Requires water on square you are standing on, does damage to target creature and creates shallow water pool under target. 1-3 level spell
Awaken water: Single tile of water attacks monster standing on it.
Water trap: Traps monster in tile of water.
Water splash: 6 level spell. Deals moderate amount of damage. And small puddeles on and around the target.
Living water: Awakens area of water damage depends on how large area of water you have created. Large pools of water deal much damage.
Watery grave: 9th level spell. Gatherwater from 9x9 or 7x7 are to one square creates deepwater. (drowns the monster standing on square) All the other water on the "gather are disappears"
Spread water: You lose shallow water square you are standing on but create lot's around you. (doesn't cost piety unlike invoke rain, and removes water tile you are standing on)
Wall of water: Creates 3x1 maybe even 5x1 if possible wall of water. Impassable and can't be shot through. Wall is only created on tiles with water.
Waterslow: Every water tiles in 9x9 are more slow to walk across.
Channel through water: Damages specific target which is standing in square of water. You need to stand in square of water and this square of water need to be connected to target square through shallow or deepwater square. Deal more damage if target is far away.


Basically you create water squares and use them to damage enemies and control battle field. Maybe water god should just have spell which should improve your control of battle field with only few damaging spells which main function is to create more water.

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 21

Joined: Monday, 12th August 2013, 09:47

Post Wednesday, 14th August 2013, 13:03

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

siprus wrote:Anyway I think you should require water to be able to cast your water spell. Either on target square or square you are standing on (some times both) You should have ablity to invoke rain which cost some piety but creates water around you so you can start using your spells.


Giving such an important bonus based on where you stand encourages luring in every single level with a Pond or Moat. It already often true fo players with the ability to confuse monster, let's not make it any worse.
The fact that you would be able to create a pool of water in any level at the cost of some piety means that it would often be optimal to have just one or two pools where you lure enemies to kill them.

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 264

Joined: Friday, 26th April 2013, 17:05

Post Wednesday, 14th August 2013, 13:29

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

I guess you misunderstood my idea. Idea was that creating water tiles is trivial matter. First you use ability which creates few water tiles around you and on top of you. (maybe better idea would be give a first level water spell which creates 1 tile of water but doesn't require water) Every other spell requires water on target square or square you are standing on, or generally around the places. Creating water with spell would be much faster than luring monsters around... unless you lacked mana of course. (in which case you'd run anyway)

Only problem would be spell which damage depend on how large pool of connected water you cast it on. Maybe they should just deal damage fixed damage on pool of water :/

Blades Runner

Posts: 578

Joined: Thursday, 12th January 2012, 21:03

Post Wednesday, 14th August 2013, 14:56

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

siprus wrote:I guess you misunderstood my idea. Idea was that creating water tiles is trivial matter. First you use ability which creates few water tiles around you and on top of you. (maybe better idea would be give a first level water spell which creates 1 tile of water but doesn't require water) Every other spell requires water on target square or square you are standing on, or generally around the places. Creating water with spell would be much faster than luring monsters around... unless you lacked mana of course. (in which case you'd run anyway)

Only problem would be spell which damage depend on how large pool of connected water you cast it on. Maybe they should just deal damage fixed damage on pool of water :/


Having to create water before each fight to get piety sounds disturbingly similar to praying to dedicate kills.
Wins: DsWz(6), DDNe(4), HuIE(5), HuFE(4), MiBe(3)

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 21

Joined: Monday, 12th August 2013, 09:47

Post Wednesday, 14th August 2013, 17:43

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

siprus wrote:I guess you misunderstood my idea. Idea was that creating water tiles is trivial matter. First you use ability which creates few water tiles around you and on top of you. (maybe better idea would be give a first level water spell which creates 1 tile of water but doesn't require water) Every other spell requires water on target square or square you are standing on, or generally around the places. Creating water with spell would be much faster than luring monsters around... unless you lacked mana of course. (in which case you'd run anyway)


I have a problem with this. The way I get it, everybody agrees that a water-based god should at least remove movement/EV/attack penalties in water. If you make it trivial (i.e. no significant Piety cost or XP cost) to flood the level, players will be doing that all the time and this will become the god of being faster and better at combat than all non-flying enemies... I think it's maybe a bit too powerful, some other gods give you a speed boost, but it costs mana and/or piety and is limited in its application. Here it would basically be static.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Wednesday, 28th August 2013, 11:59

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

All of the ideas that involve creating water and then getting bonuses while in water sound tedious and frustrating to me. I'd much rather see the worshiper leave a shallow water trail (like fire elemental clouds of fire) which dries up over time and then to remove all the standard penalties for being in water, and then allow the character to use water magic anytime, because they're always in water. In this version, the water is a) thematic, and b) useful in the way shallow water already is (combine w/ fire to make steam, fight enemies while they stand in it to reduce their effectiveness, etc.).

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 830

Joined: Wednesday, 17th April 2013, 13:28

Post Wednesday, 28th August 2013, 12:17

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

Lasty wrote:the worshiper leave a shallow water trail


Hey my toddler does that too (sorry, I couldn't resist)

I think that would be an interesting (and powerful!) ability, but see Siegurt's earlier post:

Siegurt wrote:Indeed perhaps he could cause an "aura of shallow water" to be around the player, and it could cause the same movement penalties it always does (Making it slow both you and the creatures around you) without adding the attacking speed penalties, perhaps the player could move at normal speed through 'deep' water (preserving some of the usefulness of standing water)

Additionally, to reduce fog-spam, you could have Sethygir "dislike" it when you turned his nice water into steam, losing piety for a fog cloud seems reasonable enough (You lose enough and you don't have your water aura any longer.)


The ability to fog at will is too strong perhaps, so a piety cost for it makes sense. Or alternatively, a piety cost for using fire (any fire).

More importantly, there's still no good piety gain mechanism for this god proposal, unless it's the standard kill enemies for piety deal.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Wednesday, 28th August 2013, 15:17

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

Piety gain could be exploration-based: you're spreading the seas with you as you go. This would be more apt if some of the water you trail with you becomes permanent.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 50

Joined: Tuesday, 27th August 2013, 17:08

Post Wednesday, 28th August 2013, 18:49

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

I feel like killing land-based enemies for piety and then using their blood to create a small pool of water around their corpse could fit in well.

Barkeep

Posts: 3890

Joined: Wednesday, 14th August 2013, 23:25

Location: USA

Post Thursday, 29th August 2013, 00:13

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

I like the idea of a Sea/Water god too. A few ideas that occur to me:

Why not give the Water god a Corruption-like ability that "floods the level," producing random ponds all over the place? Only usable once per floor. It could cost too much piety to use it on every level. I imagine it working something like a cross between Corruption and Fedhas's ability to set up Oklob farms. Both of these abilities can be abused in a "lure creatures" and camping kind of way, but both have limits to how much you can use it. I also think the god could give some bonuses or abilities that are useful on land, but become more powerful near water. In other words, Invocations would only be one factor in the power of the activated ability, water within line of sight would be the other, kind of like how Slouch factors in speed difference. This would prevent the god from being useless when water is not around—just rather underpowered.

Instead of—or in addition to—the above, the Sea God could also increase the chance for small puddles to appear on levels as they are generated (passive bonus).

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 18

Joined: Monday, 13th May 2013, 15:39

Post Friday, 30th August 2013, 04:17

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

I love this idea - I also notice heavy Song of Ice and Fire flavor. I hope this gets considered.... although seeing how whacky things have gotten in this game lately I doubt it'll happen. :(
User avatar

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 50

Joined: Monday, 20th December 2010, 06:21

Post Friday, 30th August 2013, 14:16

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

I wanted to start working on adding it on my own just for fun, but I've had no idea where to start hacking when it comes to gods. Anyone know which files I'd need to look in? Can't seem to find the stuff anywhere.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 3163

Joined: Friday, 6th January 2012, 18:45

Post Friday, 30th August 2013, 14:25

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

To give you an idea, searching for 'elyvilon' in the main source folder returns 210 hits in 32 files. Adding a god and all the associated abilities and conducts is a hefty undertaking.

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 18

Joined: Monday, 13th May 2013, 15:39

Post Sunday, 1st September 2013, 23:26

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

Only pet projects get added to the game it seems. Well, nice try OP. An amazing idea that is gonna get overlooked. But hey, maybe if you suggested *removing* a god the higher ups would've LOVED the idea.
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1891

Joined: Monday, 1st April 2013, 04:41

Location: Toronto, Canada

Post Wednesday, 4th September 2013, 03:37

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

RNG_god wrote:Only pet projects get added to the game it seems. Well, nice try OP. An amazing idea that is gonna get overlooked. But hey, maybe if you suggested *removing* a god the higher ups would've LOVED the idea.


"Only things people want to work on are worked on and consequently added", a fantastic insight.
take it easy

Barkeep

Posts: 3890

Joined: Wednesday, 14th August 2013, 23:25

Location: USA

Post Friday, 6th September 2013, 08:07

Re: Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

"higher ups"
Next

Return to Game Design Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.