Evocations-Brand synergy

[giovform]

The idea is to allow some weapon brands (or all if possible) to be evocable and its power linked to evocations skill. The brand stats would be permanent at-will just like Gargoyle flight for example.

This I think would be good at first on these scenarios (while adding strategy):

- Finding that whip of eletroctution at D:1 wouldn't greatly ease the game at the first levels since you would get a lower damage because of your low evocations skill.

- Reaching Lair, while training axes with that good artifact axe of electrocution you found, would allow for turning off the electrocution brand and casting the Fire Brand spell when fighting Hydras. Or turning off electrotuction to cast Freezing Aura while fighing a Fire Dragon.

Since the brand power is linked to evocations, it would allow their use on the later levels on a 15 rune game (not just holy wrath for most cases).

The brands could also be allowed to inflict these effects (very small chances at low evocations):

- Flaming brand: chance of Sticky Flame

- Freezing brand: chance of Ensorcelled Hibernation

- Electrocution brand: chance of Static Discharge

Its important to notice its not an annoying feature since the evocable brands are permanent at will, as mencioned before.

[Bart]

I think that not everyone has to be forced to train evocations. This skill is already very valuable and making weapons further dependent on it would make it essential.

Also I dislike idea of turning brands on and off (which brands would it apply to?). It would be very situational and rather tedious. Player would be also encouraged to get just one weapon (elec preferably) and forget about picking/enchanting otherwise suboptimal weapon (e.g fire scimitar again hydras) if only he had access to the spell.

[sgrunt]

The idea is to allow some weapon brands (or all if possible) to be evocable and its power linked to evocations skill.

Why? Having evocations be a no-brainer for everyone is a terrible idea.

[KoboldLord]

Evocations is already a very strong skill. Why would it need to be made stronger?

A particular new brand could certainly be linked to evocations, if somebody wants to write up a patch for it that is good enough to be approved. We already have a brand that factors in a non-weapon skill, so another certainly isn't off the table. But most brands are already good enough in at least some circumstances that they don't need an extra buff. Flaming and freezing brands are already good post-endgame brands, and adding in a chance at a reasonable status effect wouldn't really cause a major change in their status, and the brands that lose value at that point in the game do so because the post-endgame is mostly all demons, all the time, so buffing the problem brands wouldn't actually fix that problem.

[giovform]

Evocations is already a very strong skill. Why would it need to be made stronger?

Brands wouldn't necessarily be super stronger with this synergy. They could just be linked to evocations in some way (as a consequence nerfing a litlle the great whip of electrocution on D:1 for example).

As for brands on/off:

It would be very situational and rather tedious.

But isn't this the way we fight with spells? Why melee must be Tab all the way down? The ideia was to really add a little more strategy for melee, just like we have with pure spellcasters. Nobody is obligating anyone perform the optimal strategy on every encounter. Also, currently, you would have to switch weapons, no?

[Knight9910]

I was actually expecting something else upon reading the title of this thread.

This is what I was expecting - instead of all brands being toggle-able and linked to your evocations skill there would be certain brands which grant the branded weapon evokable effects, similar to how some randart weapons might give the ability to evoke flight or rage. You might find a Sword of Rage that gives such an effect on a non-artifact weapon, or even something akin to a Beam Sword which can be evoked to shoot a magic ranged attack.

[Sar]

A particular new brand could certainly be linked to evocations

That's what rods of striking currently do. Of course they are so rare they might as well not exist, but still.

[n1000]

These remarks about melee beg the question. Furthermore, there are already several damage sources tied to evocations skill. In fact, there is a set of weapons, enhancer staves, which already benefit from evocations skill--without annoying toggles!

Although I do agree that early elec weapons are too powerful (and this has recently been addressed with a minor nerf) finding early branded weapons should change your character: adapting to and putting what you find to its best use is really the main strategic consideration in Crawl. Finally, by introducing this sort of mechanic across all brands we would in fact see diminished differentiation: though characters would still switch weapon types, all characters who find early elemental weapons would become evocators.

[giovform]

all characters who find early elemental weapons would become evocators.

Ok, again, it all depends on how strong this synergy would be implemented. Evocations level 10, with Maces level 2, wouldn't be a good idea.

Toggles are boring: upon wielding, it could just immediately auto-toggle, or... simply allow the brand spell overtake the weapon brand.

[KittenInMyCerealz]

It would be kinda cool if artefact weapons could have more than 1 brand on them, and you could toggle which one you use.

[and into]

It would be kinda cool if artefact weapons could have more than 1 brand on them, and you could toggle which one you use.

That sounds more appropriate for an unrandart though. This would be kind of cute as an unrand:

The +7 Double Sword {flaming/freezing, AC+5}, base type bastard sword. Recycle the old double sword tile for its appearance. Hit v while wielding to alternate between freezing brand or flaming brand. Always gives AC+5, as if it had an innate protection brand as well.

[giovform]

It would be kinda cool if artefact weapons could have more than 1 brand on them, and you could toggle which one you use.

That sounds more appropriate for an unrandart though. This would be kind of cute as an unrand:

The +7 Double Sword {flaming/freezing, AC+5}, base type bastard sword. Recycle the old double sword tile for its appearance. Hit v while wielding to alternate between freezing brand or flaming brand. Always gives AC+5, as if it had an innate protection brand as well.

Nice one indeed.

[giovform]

Tweaking the Evocations-Brand synergy:

The idea is to link weapons brands power to the Evocations skill. The damage output for elemental brands could be:

  Code:

(damage)*(0.5+Evocations/40)

At Evocations 0: Half of the current damage.

At Evocations 27: 1.175 times the current damage (a little bit stronger).

A whip of electrocution would have damages (as of wiki version 0.13):

At Evocations 0: 5-12

At Evocations 27: 11.75-28.2

I suggested about brands being evocable (and permanent until canceled), since it would allow for spell branding and aesthetically they now would depend on evocations, but some complained it would be another toggle to mess with. I suggest two options: maintain them evocable, but auto-evoke on wielding, or allow spell brands to overtake weapon brands.

Why all this? To add a little more strategy to weapon fighting and to nerf strong brands (mainly electrocution) at the beginning of the game.

Optional:

The brands could also be allowed to inflict effects (very small chances at low Evocations). For example:

- Flaming brand: chance of Sticky Flame

- Freezing brand: chance of Ensorcelled Hibernation

- Electrocution brand: chance of Static Discharge

P.S.: Changed the topic title from "Evocable brands" to "Evocations-Brand synergy".

[Viashino_wizard]

Tweaking the Evocations-Brand synergy:Why all this? To add a little more strategy to weapon fighting and to nerf strong brands (mainly electrocution) at the beginning of the game.

This doesn't add any strategy to weapon fighting, it just means that everyone wants to train Evo early. While it would nerf an early elec brand, it also makes Evocations a requirement for any character that wants to use weapons (i.e. anyone not using UC), which would be a much bigger problem. Evo's already a very good skill that most characters want to get eventually, but when you should get it is quite variable right now. This change removes any decision-making because you want good Evo as soon as you find a branded weapon.

It would be kinda cool if artefact weapons could have more than 1 brand on them, and you could toggle which one you use.

That sounds more appropriate for an unrandart though. This would be kind of cute as an unrand:

The +7 Double Sword {flaming/freezing, AC+5}, base type bastard sword. Recycle the old double sword tile for its appearance. Hit v while wielding to alternate between freezing brand or flaming brand. Always gives AC+5, as if it had an innate protection brand as well.

[reaver]

The +7 Double Sword {flaming/freezing, AC+5}, base type bastard sword. Recycle the old double sword tile for its appearance. Hit v while wielding to alternate between freezing brand or flaming brand. Always gives AC+5, as if it had an innate protection brand as well.

It would be awful to have to press "v" depending on which enemy you were fighting. If this artifact went in I would use something like want of exploit weakness to always choose the one you probably want.

On a double-brand melee weapon: I would prefer using more powerful and differentiated brands on such an artifact. Like a holy-wrath/distortion sword made by some made artificer.

[giovform]

This doesn't add any strategy to weapon fighting, it just means that everyone wants to train Evo early.

Please explain why it does not add strategy. See the bonus for why it wouldn't be such a great deal to train a lot of Evocations early because of a weapon brand.

[giovform]

It would be awful to have to press "v" depending on which enemy you were fighting.

You are not obligated to fight optimally, as said before. And read the alternatives, auto evoking on wield or allow spell brands to override the weapon brand would just eliminate any "boring" interaction with the brand mechanic.

[johlstei]

Yeah if you really wanted that weapon it'd only really be okay if it automatically used whichever brand a given enemy was more vulnerable to.

[Viashino_wizard]

This doesn't add any strategy to weapon fighting, it just means that everyone wants to train Evo early.

Please explain why it does not add strategy. See the bonus for why it wouldn't be such a great deal to train a lot of Evocations early because of a weapon brand.

You still want to train 4 Evo as soon as you have a branded weapon, because it costs very little exp while increasing your brand's damage by 20%, as well as all the other benefits of training Evo. In reality, though, this change is just a big nerf to every brand type, because you need 20 Evocations to break even, which is a lot of experience unless you're a DD or something. In theory this is balanced because now you can get 17.5% more damage, except to do that you need to train another 7 Evocations, which costs more than it took reaching 20 in the first place.

There's a lot of good reasons to train Evo already due to the plethora of useful wands, evocables and rods in the game, but still have to balance it against training the skill(s) for your primary offense. Except now training Evo also boosts your weapon's damage, so that trade-off doesn't exist anymore.

[duvessa]

Please explain why it does not add strategy.

Please explain why it does.

You are not obligated to fight optimally, as said before.

You might find the Crawl design goals an interesting read.

Major design goals
* challenging and random gameplay, with skill making a real difference
* meaningful decisions (no no-brainers)
* avoidance of grinding (no scumming)
* gameplay supporting painless interface and newbie support

Minor design goals
* clarity (playability without need for spoilers)
* internal consistency
* replayability (using branches, species, playing styles and gods)
* proper use of out of depth monsters

[and into]

The +7 Double Sword {flaming/freezing, AC+5}, base type bastard sword. Recycle the old double sword tile for its appearance. Hit v while wielding to alternate between freezing brand or flaming brand. Always gives AC+5, as if it had an innate protection brand as well.

It would be awful to have to press "v" depending on which enemy you were fighting. If this artifact went in I would use something like want of exploit weakness to always choose the one you probably want.

On a double-brand melee weapon: I would prefer using more powerful and differentiated brands on such an artifact. Like a holy-wrath/distortion sword made by some made artificer.

Hmm... The Double Sword could spawn with two randomly chosen brands. Agreed that flaming/freezing isn't so interesting. For some combinations you really would want to switch manually though, and I really don't think pressing v to switch between two brands would be that bad. Such an interface would be better than reaching and rods (new or old). (But maybe you think those are awful too?)

[duvessa]

I definitely think reaching is awful (a lot more awful than switching brand would be).
If I wanted that artefact in the game I would make it just randomly pick one of flaming/freezing on every hit, or alternatively, do both at once. But I don't think this is really interesting in the first place (see: new elemental staff).

[DracheReborn]

Optional:

The brands could also be allowed to inflict effects (very small chances at low Evocations). For example:

- Flaming brand: chance of Sticky Flame

- Freezing brand: chance of Ensorcelled Hibernation

- Electrocution brand: chance of Static Discharge

FYI effects similar to this are being considered for equipgod (not tied to evocation though).

[Patashu]

I don't think any suggestion like this is ever going to be implemented because it shafts the difficulty and fun of early game and replaces it with... well, nothing, it just gets harder and less fun because there's no point in looking for a cool weapon if it won't even work.

[giovform]

Please explain why it does.

As already said:

- Reaching Lair, while training axes with that good artifact axe of electrocution you found, would allow for turning off the electrocution brand and casting the Fire Brand spell when fighting Hydras. Or turning off electrotuction to cast Freezing Aura while fighing a Fire Dragon.

Strategy is clear here, just as a spellcaster would prepare before a fight with his buffs.

For the ones highlighted:

* avoidance of grinding (no scumming)
* gameplay supporting painless interface and newbie support

My approach is even better for the first point since you don't have scum for that weapon with a brand you need.

The suggestion of turning brand on and off was already given two alternatives to avoid the "painless interface".

And the proposal solves the problem with brands being strong at the beginning of the game.

[giovform]

and I really don't think pressing v to switch between two brands would be that bad

Yes, spellcasters have so much more key presses. I hardly find why pressing V here or there for a more difficult fight would be painless and unacceptable.

[giovform]

I don't think any suggestion like this is ever going to be implemented because it shafts the difficulty and fun of early game and replaces it with... well, nothing, it just gets harder and less fun because there's no point in looking for a cool weapon if it won't even work.

See the formula, the weapon will work (half of current damage at Evocations 0 - and this can be modified of course, its a suggestion), but not overpowered (maybe that is why is so fun when you find the whip of electrocution?). Not being disrespectful but: "Awww yeah! Found a whip of electrocution on D:1. Now I will win."

[duvessa]

Please explain why it does.

As already said:

- Reaching Lair, while training axes with that good artifact axe of electrocution you found, would allow for turning off the electrocution brand and casting the Fire Brand spell when fighting Hydras. Or turning off electrotuction to cast Freezing Aura while fighing a Fire Dragon.

Strategy is clear here, just as a spellcaster would prepare before a fight with his buffs.

The way buff spells currently work in crawl is universally considered to be awful design. If your most compelling argument for your idea is comparing it to those, then your idea probably isn't very good design, either.

And the proposal solves the problem with brands being strong at the beginning of the game.

I wasn't aware that items being useful was considered a problem.

My approach is even better for the first point since you don't have scum for that weapon with a brand you need.

uh

[giovform]

The way buff spells currently work in crawl is universally considered to be awful design. If your most compelling argument for your idea is comparing it to those, then your idea probably isn't very good design, either.

I am fine with them. Maybe more permanent buffs. That's the way the evocable brand idea works anyway.

I wasn't aware that items being useful was considered a problem.

Alright, being useful is ok, being overpowered is not.

[Viashino_wizard]

The way buff spells currently work in crawl is universally considered to be awful design. If your most compelling argument for your idea is comparing it to those, then your idea probably isn't very good design, either.

I am fine with them. Maybe more permanent buffs. That's the way the evocable brand idea works anyway.

I wasn't aware that items being useful was considered a problem.

Alright, being useful is ok, being overpowered is not.

Ahhh, misthank.

Where are you getting the idea that brands are overpowered? The only one that's really too strong is Electrocution, which is why it was just nerfed.

[giovform]

Where are you getting the idea that brands are overpowered? The only one that's really too strong is Electrocution, which is why it was just nerfed.

Nerf for the beginning of the game, turning it then barely noticeable for later stages, and vice versa. Its impossible to find a fixed damage that would be useful for various difficulty levels.

[Lasty]

giovform, I think people now understand both your proposal and its motivation pretty well, but there seems to be little interest. I'm fairly sure that making good items less useful in the game is not a design goal for crawl, and so I can't imagine you'll get much traction on that front. People have also explained that Evocations is a skill that doesn't need to become more mandatory, and that brand-switching isn't very interesting overall, which means that there isn't much about this proposal that anyone seems to want.

I think you should consider your case to be made and to be rejected at this point. If you still think there are elements to the proposal that are worth considering, I suggest you think about the criticism your proposal has received so far and think about how to make a new (or significantly revised) proposal that addresses that criticism while also implementing the elements you think are worth salvaging.

[giovform]

Yes Lasty, I was about to end my participation. The criticism was responded and the idea was being modified accordingly, but then it is already late to change peoples minds.

[Viashino_wizard]

Where are you getting the idea that brands are overpowered? The only one that's really too strong is Electrocution, which is why it was just nerfed.

Nerf for the beginning of the game, turning it then barely noticeable for later stages, and vice versa. Its impossible to find a fixed damage that would be useful for various difficulty levels.

It's not "barely noticeable" for later stages, though, because you're mandating 20 points in Evo to break even and even higher to actually benefit from the change. That's a major investment due to the way experience costs increase exponentially.

Yes Lasty, I was about to end my participation. The criticism was responded and the idea was being modified accordingly, but then it is already late to change peoples minds.

You can modify the idea as much as you want, but the fact of the matter is that tying Evocations to weapon brands solves a problem that doesn't exist while adding new, even bigger problems. Don't get all pissy and dismissive because everyone pointed out that your suggestion is bad.

[giovform]

Calm down boy... I am not pissed.

It's not "barely noticeable" for later stages, though, because you're mandating 20 points in Evo to break even and even higher to actually benefit from the change. That's a major investment due to the way experience costs increase exponentially.

Obviously when investing in Evocations you get a lot of benefits. One wouldn't and shouldn't invest in it just because of weapon brands. Yet, if you didn't like the formula, mathematics provides a lot of options.

You can modify the idea as much as you want, but the fact of the matter is that tying Evocations to weapon brands solves a problem that doesn't exist while adding new, even bigger problems. Don't get all pissy and dismissive because everyone pointed out that your suggestion is bad.

It's your opinion, and one or another agreed with me that there is a (lesser) problem (at least) with a specific brand. The "bigger" problems it adds where speculations about how a player would invest all his points in Evocations, which with the current formula it already would be a no brainer.

[and into]

A developer has nixed the idea, and I think it has been talked out at this point. There's probably design space for doing something neat with unrand weapons that can be evoked for various unique effects, but a very radical change to game balance like this is not even going to be considered unless it is directly fixing a major deviation from design philosophy or some similar, serious issue.

Locking thread for now, however if someone has more to say and would like the thread to remain open, PM me and I'll reopen and move it to CYC instead. Thanks!