Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back


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Post Monday, 7th April 2014, 23:23

Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

Currently, killing Boris is rather pointless because he's going to show up again. I propose making him function similar to Natasha, in that you kill him a few times and then he stays dead. I'd go for him coming back around 5 times, but I'm not attached to that number.
Thoughts?

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Post Monday, 7th April 2014, 23:28

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

I think the idea is that you leave Boris alive as soon as he's not in your way.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 7th April 2014, 23:29

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

killing him would still be pointless because he still wont show up again if you dont kill him

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Post Monday, 7th April 2014, 23:31

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

Igxfl wrote:I think the idea is that you leave Boris alive as soon as he's not in your way.

I assumed it wasn't intended by the devs.
duvessa wrote:killing him would still be pointless because he still wont show up again if you dont kill him

Neither will any of the other uniques, but people still kill them for some reason.

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Post Monday, 7th April 2014, 23:32

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

There are 31 games online where Boris was killed more than 5 times (never more than 7), and he's been around since the beginning of Stone Soup. Giving the chance to see him lots of times seems fine, and he, like all other monsters, is not mandatory to kill.
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Post Monday, 7th April 2014, 23:42

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

Also, there is already a cap of 16 spawns anyways, as there are only 16 levels of the dungeon he can spawn on.

(Depths 3-5, Vaults 2-5, Crypt 1-5, Blade, and Tomb 1-3, if you are curious)
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Post Tuesday, 8th April 2014, 00:07

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

If Boris didn't spawn because he was eligible but he already died too many times wouldn't you just get a different unique anyway?

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Post Tuesday, 8th April 2014, 00:40

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

After the first death, he returns with Doris. Killing them would then be final.

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Post Tuesday, 8th April 2014, 00:52

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

Dooris, the unique vault warden. I hope you have LRD!
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Post Tuesday, 8th April 2014, 02:39

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

I've only seen Boris twice in one game before (though I generally die before I get to where he spawns, so maybe that's a factor).
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Post Tuesday, 8th April 2014, 04:26

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

As long as Boris comes back even once, the exact number of times he comes back doesn't really matter, because you're still giving the player a strong incentive not to kill him the first time. So either let him come back indefinitely or just remove him from the game, since coming back to life is the only interesting thing about him.

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Post Tuesday, 8th April 2014, 12:07

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

I think the proper solution is to have Boris reappear even if you didn't kill him first time.

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Post Tuesday, 8th April 2014, 12:23

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

@dpeg
If boris died permanently after 3 or so normal deaths, that'd actually give a good reason to kill him.

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Post Tuesday, 8th April 2014, 12:26

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

Oh yes, I didn't have infinitely many Borises in mind. Just to make the decision to ignore him less clearcut than is now.

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Post Tuesday, 8th April 2014, 13:35

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

I'll go try to code up a patch. See you in contributions if it works.
EDIT:
What's the average amount of boris encounters per game, and how do I go look for statistics like that?

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Post Tuesday, 8th April 2014, 17:01

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

You don't want to get that statistic by looking at games. You should calculate it from the unique placement function and vault weights.

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Post Tuesday, 8th April 2014, 17:04

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

Got it. Thanks for the help!
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Post Tuesday, 8th April 2014, 17:28

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

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Post Tuesday, 8th April 2014, 17:58

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

Okay, so assuming I understand the placement code, there's a 1 in (3+1 for every unique on the level over three) chance of any unique appearing on a given level, and if there's less than 5 uniques that can be placed, there's a (5-placeable uniques) in five chance of things just stopping each time the loop goes. The chance of any particular unique being spawned when a unique is chosen to be spawned is weight/total weights.
Do I have this right?

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Post Tuesday, 8th April 2014, 19:58

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

dpeg wrote:I think the proper solution is to have Boris reappear even if you didn't kill him first time.


I thought about this for a bit, then realized it's (technically) hard to do... What's the trigger point for deciding that the player isn't going to fight Boris? An x amount of time? When the player departs the level? Whichever it is, spoiled players would now have a foolproof way of getting rid of Boris. Boris blocking a certain level? Just do x and he's sure to respawn elsewhere. Should you meet him again, just repeat...

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Post Tuesday, 8th April 2014, 20:00

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

OP:
khalil wrote:Currently, killing Boris is rather pointless because he's going to show up again.
Thoughts?

And that is exactly the thing why Boris is _unique_. Not only in Crawl, but pretty much in any RL I've seen before.
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Post Tuesday, 8th April 2014, 20:19

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

Zicher wrote:OP:
khalil wrote:Currently, killing Boris is rather pointless because he's going to show up again.
Thoughts?

And that is exactly the thing why Boris is _unique_. Not only in Crawl, but pretty much in any RL I've seen before.


You know, absolutely nothing like The Wizard of Yendor.
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Post Tuesday, 8th April 2014, 20:30

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

DracheReborn wrote:
dpeg wrote:I think the proper solution is to have Boris reappear even if you didn't kill him first time.


I thought about this for a bit, then realized it's (technically) hard to do... What's the trigger point for deciding that the player isn't going to fight Boris? An x amount of time? When the player departs the level? Whichever it is, spoiled players would now have a foolproof way of getting rid of Boris. Boris blocking a certain level? Just do x and he's sure to respawn elsewhere. Should you meet him again, just repeat...

I figure if you leave the level Boris is on, he just dissapears from that level and has a chance to reappear outside your los on every level you go to after that.
If you kill him, he goes back to standard unique generation until you go to every level he can appear in, at which point if he's still got lives left he respawns via the first method.
Or he could just respawn via the first method all the time, that would work too.
Zicher wrote:OP:
khalil wrote:Currently, killing Boris is rather pointless because he's going to show up again.
Thoughts?

And that is exactly the thing why Boris is _unique_. Not only in Crawl, but pretty much in any RL I've seen before.

Being unique doesn't mean it isn't bad design. It rewards running away and never coming back, whereas most uniques reward running away, then coming back and killing them once you've gained a few levels.

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Post Wednesday, 9th April 2014, 12:32

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

Or Boris could just stay the way he is?

If you like a challenge and exp, and don't mind him showing up later again, you kill him. If you do mind you just go away. There's nothing wrong with that IMO. I really like the way Boris currently works.

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Post Wednesday, 9th April 2014, 15:44

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

I guess. My computer has started crashing at random intervals (posting this via phone), so it's probably for the best, cuz I don't think I'd be able to finish coding it at this point.

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Post Monday, 21st April 2014, 00:27

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

khalil wrote:I figure if you leave the level Boris is on, he just dissapears from that level and has a chance to reappear outside your los on every level you go to after that.


Has it been implemented? This is what happened in my game but I failed to find Boris in http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=shortlog. Or should I report a bug?

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Post Monday, 21st April 2014, 00:29

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

Sandman25 wrote:
khalil wrote:I figure if you leave the level Boris is on, he just dissapears from that level and has a chance to reappear outside your los on every level you go to after that.


Has it been implemented? This is what happened in my game but I failed to find Boris in http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=shortlog. Or should I report a bug?

did he step into a shaft?

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Post Monday, 21st April 2014, 02:19

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

crate wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:
khalil wrote:I figure if you leave the level Boris is on, he just dissapears from that level and has a chance to reappear outside your los on every level you go to after that.


Has it been implemented? This is what happened in my game but I failed to find Boris in http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=shortlog. Or should I report a bug?

did he step into a shaft?


No. He was in Depths and now he is in Crypt. He is not in kills list and I am sure I didn't kill him.
I am a summoner, is it possible that some summons killed him but I didn't get any message? I have no undead on Depths 4.

  Code:
53478 | Depths:4 | Noticed Boris
 53697 | Depths:4 | Reached skill level 21 in Summonings
 53705 | Depths:4 | Found a basalt altar of Yredelemnul.
 53729 | Depths:4 | Noticed a profane servitor
 53824 | Depths:4 | Huge Dmg: 23 dmg
 54016 | Depths:4 | Noticed Jorgrun
 54040 | Depths:4 | Killed Jorgrun
 54070 | Depths:4 | Identified the +7,+9 scimitar of Upug Sme {slice, rF++ SInv} (You took it off a spriggan air mage on level 4 of the Depths)
 54216 | Depths:4 | Identified a +6 rod of shadows (1/9) (You took it off a spriggan berserker on level 4 of the Depths)
 54256 | Depths:4 | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 2 turns
 54324 | Depths:4 | Found a gateway to a ziggurat.
 54532 | Depths:4 | Killed the Enchantress
 54532 | Depths:4 | Identified the +5 faerie dragon armour {Str+4} (You took it off the Enchantress on level 4 of the Depths)
 54642 | Depths:4 | Identified the Tome of Ashen Arcane Weapons (You found it on level 4 of the Depths)
55010 | Depths:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Depths
 ...
 67089 | Crypt:4  | Noticed Boris
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Post Monday, 21st April 2014, 02:24

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

I would bet Boris died some other way, such as stepping on a Zot trap. Did you see him in the Depths again after seeing him in the Crypt?
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Post Monday, 21st April 2014, 02:27

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

reaver wrote:I would bet Boris died some other way, such as stepping on a Zot trap. Did you see him in the Depths again after seeing him in the Crypt?


No. I can reexplore the floor to be sure.

Edit. I found him in Depth 4 again. And he disappeared from Crypt in Ctrl+O screen (I didn't kill him in Crypt either).

  Code:
Crypt:4 exclusion: flayed ghost
Zot:3 exclusion: upstairs
Depths:3 Jory
Depths:4 exclusions: great orb of eyes, profane servitor and 3 more exclusions, Boris


Edit2. I escaped and explored Crypt 4. He is in Crypt 4. He disappeared from Depths 4 in Ctrl+O screen.

  Code:
Crypt:4 Boris
Zot:3 exclusion: upstairs
Depths:3 Jory
Depths:4 exclusions: great orb of eyes, profane servitor and 3 more exclusions



  Code:
Press: ? - help, v - describe, . - travel
Here: Boris wearing a robe of cold resistance (resting)
The floor.
Unknown command.
Boris shouts!

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Post Monday, 21st April 2014, 12:40

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

reaver wrote:I would bet Boris died some other way, such as stepping on a Zot trap. Did you see him in the Depths again after seeing him in the Crypt?


Monsters can't die from stepping on Zot traps unless that's a recent addition.

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Post Monday, 28th April 2014, 23:05

Re: Proposal: limit the amount of times Boris comes back

DracheReborn wrote:
dpeg wrote:I think the proper solution is to have Boris reappear even if you didn't kill him first time.


I thought about this for a bit, then realized it's (technically) hard to do... What's the trigger point for deciding that the player isn't going to fight Boris? An x amount of time? When the player departs the level? Whichever it is, spoiled players would now have a foolproof way of getting rid of Boris. Boris blocking a certain level? Just do x and he's sure to respawn elsewhere. Should you meet him again, just repeat...


What about this: the unique generation algorithm always has the same chance of generating Boris, whether he's alive or dead (as long as he's not already on the current level). When he's generated, the game checks for any previous Borises and deletes them from their levels.

This way, you'll always have the same chance of running into Boris whether you killed him or ran away last time. The only foolproof way to get rid of Boris would be to explore the dungeon until you meet him somewhere else.

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