Demigod abilities stolen from gods

[Whart]

I read the dev wiki discussion about demigods and have an idea I'd like to run past people, in short the main proposal goes something like:

Demigods are both dull without a god and a bit of a challenge, despite the boosted stats. To remedy this, as the player gains in power they gain in notoriety ("worshipers" for flavour), which attracts the hostile attention of the existing gods, who send uniques to battle the player. Beating the uniques gets the player new worshipers, fleeing causes worshipers to abandon the demigod. The player is rewarded with loot from the unique, who has extra slots so maybe jewelry or books instead of just weapons or armour. I find the reward underwhelming and unlikely to get me to play demigods. Oh, extra uniques to kill me and a little more loot that I probably can't use.

I'd suggest that the player can take a boon from the god who's unique has been defeated. Say that the player beats Trog's avatar and has sufficient worshipers to take something up to up to piety level 3, and so can choose from Burn Book, Protection from Abjuration, Berserk, and Trog's Hand, which is renamed [PlayerName]'s Hand. Berserk Bonus maybe could get left out or instead be reworked to grant extra followers if the player kills monsters while berserk. Ability use would cost worshipers, if it costs piety, in addition to regular costs like food or MP. Maybe add the restriction that you could only choose one boon from each piety level. Balance it so that the first avatar appears, say, around the time you complete the Lair and Mines. Space out avatar appearances so that the player would only get a full set of boons if going for the extended game.

A benefit here is that the player has some interesting choices to make. OK, I'd like Berserk, especially seeing how I could free up a spell slot like that, but what if the next avatar belongs to Okawaru? I probably won't have enough worshipers to get Finesse, and Berserk, being a piety level one (*) ability, would block Heroism. Maybe I'd better take Hand instead.

It would also make for more distinctive characters, like with Demonspawn mutations, but allow the player to have some choice.

Anyway, what do you reckon? Overpowered? Too difficult to code or balance?

[Jeremiah]

An idea I was thinking about for Demigods, (which may have already been suggested and rejected elsewhere..)

Remove Demigod as a distinct race:

Instead, any race (possibly with the exception of Demonspawn,) on reaching the Temple, if they have never had a religion, can choose the path of 'Deification', rejecting all gods and gaining Demigod-like stat/HP etc boosts in compensation (as well as any other buffs or effects that are planned to be given to Demigods.)

The current stat increases for Demigods would be used for Humans who take this path, then other species could get increases more in keeping with their base stats.

[Hushed]

First of all, demigods are in no need of a buff whatsoever. They are a similar situation to centaurs: they may sound like one of the weaker species, but they are actually very good.

Demigods can't worship gods. That's their schtick. This is why I do not like the idea of giving them god-like abilities; it is the lack of those abilities that distinguishes them.

Most of the proposals for demigods would make me stop playing demigods, and they are actually one of my favorite species at the moment, but this is personal opinion (similar to how I do not play felids).

I don't think Demigods need a buff. I too enjoy playing them as is, but I do think that their benefit to being part god is a little on the side of lame. Not that many things are intrinsically linked to stats, or where they are the gains are tiny. I'm not sure how great epic blade hands damage really is.

I personally don't know a way to change demigods to make them more interesting without it really being a buff. I'd say make stats matter more in more of the equations, like int in magic resist, etc. but really that's just a lot of little buffs. I'd prefer someone to come up with a benefit that screams part god without making the species any easier.

[Hushed]

I stand corrected. Not many things are intrinsically linked to stats, or where they are the gains are usually tiny. Demigods do make great transmuters.

[Whart]

First of all, demigods are in no need of a buff whatsoever. They are a similar situation to centaurs: they may sound like one of the weaker species, but they are actually very good.

Understood, but I expect that there will be a change to demigods, possibly some sort of buff. From my point of view, as a long-time but not very good player, having more uniques to fight isn't a straight up buff, so if development goes that way demigods would become less attractive to me unless the rewards for success were better than just more loot.

Demigods can't worship gods. That's their schtick. This is why I do not like the idea of giving them god-like abilities; it is the lack of those abilities that distinguishes them.

Also fair but not much of a distinction. The religion system used to be often pointed out as the best thing about Crawl, probably still is. With a demigod you skip that part of the game. That's lame. Even lamer when you consider that any race can do the exact same thing. Lamer still when I can think of races that would probably be more fun to play as an atheist. I mostly pick race based on aptitudes and demigods, of course, have unvaried aptitudes. Demonspawn at least have some minor variation, such as being good at Necromancy and Invocations, plus mutations grant abilities.

Most of the proposals for demigods would make me stop playing demigods, and they are actually one of my favorite species at the moment, but this is personal opinion (similar to how I do not play felids).

I certainly don't want to raid on one of your favourites, although I'm guessing you're in a minority there. I would like to get across why they aren't a favourite of mine, though, and suggest a way to possibly make them more interesting.

I personally don't know a way to change demigods to make them more interesting without it really being a buff. I'd say make stats matter more in more of the equations, like int in magic resist, etc. but really that's just a lot of little buffs. I'd prefer someone to come up with a benefit that screams part god without making the species any easier.

That's what I like about the hostile-gods-send-avatars-against you idea, which seems to be the main one going on the wiki, or at least the most thoroughly developed suggestion. It fits the flavour and increases challenge. That part is not a buff-- at least, I don't think of more uniques to fight being a buff, although if they're easy to beat, you could say hey, free experience. I'm sure they won't be pushovers, though. In fact, I'm sure taking them on would be a huge risk. Stealing abilities is a buff as a reward for that risk.

[roguelikedev]

... I'm not sure how great epic blade hands damage really is. ...

I didn't notice a difference. (Disclaimer: I've only had one demigod TM over 20, and I don't think he made 27.) BH kills everything in a rather low number of directional button presses regardless, and reducing that number by 25% or whatever doesn't solve any of the problems inherent to using BH. I do agree that demigods make good transmuters, though.

[dolphin]

But gods add significant flavour and gameplay changes, and while a religious character may indeed be better (more likely to win) than a non-religious character, that isn't the only appeal of being religious: it's usually not a simple 'advantage/disadvantage' thing. I think it's fair to say that taking away an advantage+flavour package and giving a simple advantage in return is less enjoyable to most people, particularly when the advantage isn't something different that nobody else gets (see Demonspawn or Draconians), but instead just more of what every character already has. Variation is the spice of life

Honest, non-snarky question: What about demigods is so enjoyable to you, minmay?

[galehar]

Some people dislike playing with god because of the conducts (especially sacrificing). Having some options which remove some part of the game while providing compensation is good. Even if said compensation is less flavourful or more simple. That's also why we have trolls and felids for example.