God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

[dpeg]

Quazifuji: The net does no damage, it just means that the monster cannot move for a short while. Constriction does considerable damage (and the target cannot move).

[Quazifuji]

Quazifuji: The net does no damage, it just means that the monster cannot move for a short while. Constriction does considerable damage (and the target cannot move).

In that case, wouldn't having separate net and ranged constriction abilities be a bit redundant? Unless they're different tiers with different costs (maybe a lower-piety lower-cost net and a higher-piety higher-cost constriction).

Also, would the possibility of a tentacle (vine) that pulls enemies in line a Tentacle Starspawn work? Seems like another way to differentiate things and mess with positioning, and would also just feel badass.

[dpeg]

Quazifujui: The way I see it, you can use nets defensively (to get away) but you constrict for the kill. But sure, anything is possible at this stage

[Quazifuji]

Quazifujui: The way I see it, you can use nets defensively (to get away) but you constrict for the kill. But sure, anything is possible at this stage

Well, if constricting is for the kill then a tentacle that pulls enemies makes even more sense.

[and into]

Put up a version of Griggy/Udzu on the devwiki:

https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:propose:thorn_god

I took dpeg's idea for whip vine (not smite targeted); also adjusted numbers slightly to make AC growth more fluid. Increased +AC at start and final value which seems more reasonable; I settled on +6 AC and no body armor upon worship, with +2 AC for each star of piety after that, then +2 AC for each blocked aux slot, for a total of +22 AC. Incorporated Viashino Wizard's advice regarding new abilities at six stars piety.

[dpeg]

and_into: Many thanks! Would be a pity to see this nice proposal rot away. I made some changes to the wiki page, presentation only.

[n1000]

Thanks and into, I really like a lot of the ideas you and others have come up with!

By the way I didn't mean to "abandon" the thread/proposal but I've been quite busy and every time I come up with some refinement it seems like there are half a dozen good* ideas I've got to catch up with. The main thing I wanted to explore was sacrificing armour slots, so I'm glad to see that's still a feature of the modified proposal.

I do think "Bed of Nails" would be a really impressive and cool ability that we shouldn't give up on. Is the omission because 4 active abilities would be too many?

*the fact that so many of the ideas are good is the worst! can't just dismiss them!

[and into]

Yes, sorry, by "abandon" I really just meant "seems to be out/away at the moment." Abandon carries negative connotations but for better or worse that's the common term, I hope it didn't seem ungrateful (after all you got the ball rolling here and gave a huge initial push).

Basically, briar patch was a slightly modified version of bed of nails. As I imagine it, you'd be guaranteed to surround all directly adjacent spaces with briars, but not just that—you'd get some briars radiating out from you further afield. The exact extent of this I am happy to leave up to whoever develops and implements it (if anyone), but basically it is similar to your original idea for bed of nails, just with brambles that would entangle and damage enemies.

Of course, I'd just be happy to see the thorn god added, and if the dev likes bed of nails more, then go for that. I do think the two abilities are too similar, so it would be an either/or. Happily, though, either of them is potentially (with right balance for numbers, etc.) strong enough for a five star piety ability, for sure.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and the page looks a lot better now, thanks dpeg.

[JARG]

I apologize for the long post, I just got carried away in excitement.

This is one of those threads that makes me want to be involved. There's just so many interesting ideas here! I feel like the lines are fairly well drawn around what sort of themes the god has but I just wanted to mention the thoughts I'd had while reading through it.

First of all it seems strange to have Fedhas the Gardener and Brambles from Sleeping Beauty side by side. Of course there are two "death gods" but how many double-themes do you want...
I really like the aggressive side of nature theme though. "Survival of the Fittest!"

The choices at new piety levels is really something unique, sort of like the god and you are directing your evolution. Personally, I think it'd be more intriguing to just focus on that and create a branching set of options for the player to define their own god-build. Something along the lines of "focuses" which are determined either by choices or species. Sort of as if you're praying down an evolutionary line, or adapting from your enemy encounters. The god could take on a more water theme for merfolk/octopode(there's plants in the ocean: coral, kelp, etc) //it seems like octopode benefits amazingly unless there's special rules(but maybe that's ok), or the player could choose a non-plant focus at all and just pick their "evolutions" (you could call the god Darwyn! or Ryndaw)... I just wanted to mention it though, because I feel like it doesn't mesh well with the rest of the game.

The idea of having the brambles "absorb attacks" creating a sort of psuedo-resistance like effect fascinates me since it would function separate of AC or SH or any of the other saves. It made me envision a completely alternate playstyle! I had envisioned something like "Brambles begin to grow over your skin!" at piety ***, which does not block any armor slots... but also does not grow if you're wearing armor(effectively you block your own god's benefits but could still use the god just for the invocations). Said brambles take time(or praying over corpses) to grow but function in stacks. The idea could be extended to other slots as well. Suppose that you had 4 stacks for body and 2 for auxiliary slots. They could provide +1-2 AC each and achieve a similar result, the catch of having said stacks would be from the absorption feature: as you take X damage it would prevent Y. Effectively acting as god-given damage shaving in a consumable stack method triggered on certain thresholds(damage over X, fatal damage). For example if you have no fire/cold-resistance(because you sacrificed your slots), but you would be taking 20 damage, a stack would be consumed reducing it by 10(or 15, etc). On consumption of a stack in this method, it could also cause a thorn/barbexplosion(alternatively it could simply fire at the enemy that caused the stack to be consumed; with perhaps the very last stacks causing explosions), size/range depending either on which stack or piety. It could trigger on any sort of damage(with maybe exceptions like negative energy or smiting) and potentially prevent death causing the stacks to be consumed instead. Alternatively, it could provide resistances at certain stack thresholds, ex: 6+.

In regards to constriction, I the idea has a lot of potential especially if it's dependent on your stats as well as piety. A god/god powers being effected by YOU/your stats is just such a nice change. Ranged constriction seems like it benefits polearms/ranged characters an undue amount. Ranged constriction is a really awesome idea, but if the character can't move it's pretty much great for everyone but a non-polearm melee character, alternatively if they can move, it becomes potentially an amazing escape(especially if it can affect multiple targets). Tangential idea: suppose it gives you more options, moving causes them to move so you could drag them, or the aforementioned "get over here". If paired with the option choices you could pick how you want this power to behave(which would be amazing).

In regards to bed of nails, it seems like a much more salient ability than walling yourself in with things that enemies can still fire through... One theme that I don't think would benefit this god very much is the "hold your ground, set up fortifications" theme: it just feels too Fedhas.

*got rid of example, split the focus of the post*

//re-added

Example layout:

Appreciates when you let your body("thorns") grow, evolve(positive mutations), or kill? Depreciates when 50%+ of AC is coming from is not coming from stacks.
Passive: Armour of Nature (thorns, scales, etc
Stacks begin to grow over your body wherever you are unarmed. A stack is consumed when you take 20% of your total health as damage to prevent 25% of it. Functionality of the stacks changes with piety. +1 AC per stack
* Choice: Stacks retaliate on being consumed by heavy damage a) fire at enemy causing damage b) explode around player
** Active: Vine whip: Fires vines to entangle enemies (net effect) Cost Piety & a stack
*** Passive:All stacks are consumed on fatal damage and your death is prevented(leaves you at 1).
+2 AC per stack
**** Choice: Evolve vines: Range increases to 5. Vine whips develop into constriction. Functionality dependent on player choice or stats, a) moves enemy (sub choice later) b) multitarget
Passive: stack retaliation causes barbs and slow/blind chance.
***** Active: Rapid growth: Increase stack growth(can have additional stack above cap per *) for a time based on piety (cost high piety/mp/food)
Choice: Evolve vines: Range increases to 6 a.1) pull enemy towards you, a.2) allows your movement(reduces constriction to net effect), drag enemy, a.3) knockback b.1) everyone in a radius around target, b.2) Fire 3 per cast, addition whips on the same target cause (Str+Dex)/4 damage b.3) allows movement your movement to not break constriction
****** Choice: choose permanent evolution a) Active: Stalker: roots extend after 30 aut of waiting, pauses hunger clock(still decreases via spells), increases health, increases stealth(reduces sight range like nightstalker), still able to move at reduced speed, end via abilities (cost piety) b) Passive: Consume: purposefully consume(retaliation triggers) a stack to(or something else) fire trigger vinewhip for free c) Passive: Reap: gain stacks every kill if it would push you past the cap cause retaliation at a random enemy, slaying bonus based on stacks
Passive: stack retaliation restores health(based on damage dealt) in addition to damage reduction


Well, that certainly seems excessive looking back over it. It feels busy just even looking at it and I'd probably be inclined to make it busier(creating alternate effects based on different chosen archetypes when you devote ex: water, plant, monsterous/animal)... I'm just interested in what others think of such a design. It obviously needs toning down, but what are your thoughts?

// I would take away the 6* passive(instead putting an effect under consume-casted vinewhips), do something about Rapid growth(it's unclear), and probably add a Sinv or antennae like effect to "Stalk" and take away some of the buffs which don't make sense(pausing hunger is ridiculous for example idk what I was thinking...)

[treerex5]

Maybe, to implement another cool mechanic, this guy's 4* ability should be a choice between 2 different abilities.
EXAMPLE: ""Spread more brambles with this gift!" Griggy generously offers you a choice of two abilities! (Useful passive or cool ability)

[MorganLeah]

Hello, long time player first time poster here.

I've coded up a version of this god, it's mostly similar to this writeup, though there are some differences.

The summary:

Udzu the Untamed

The god of wild plants and natural selection. Followers forgo the use of most armour, instead becoming encased by ever-growing masses of thorns. These thorns provide protection and various unique benefits. Followers will also be able to harness the destructive powers of plants by hurling barbs, unleashing constricting vines, and spreading massive briar patches.

Udzu appreciates it when worshipers demonstrate survival of the fittest (killing things).

Upon worship:
Spines (scales up with piety: spiny 2 at ***, spiny 3 at champion)
Armor of Thorns: So long as you worship Udzu you cannot wear body armor, regardless of piety level.
-Races that can wear body armour start with +6 AC, scales up to +14 AC at champion.
-Races that cannot wear body armour start with +3 AC, scales up to +7 AC at champion.
* Fling Thorns. Projectile targeted, range 5. Cost: 2 MP, small piety and hunger. Ranged damage that causes barb status on target.
** Vestment of Thorns: Dense natural growths cover more of your body. Choose one of the given slots. So long as you worship Udzu you cannot wear aux armour in that slot. If it was a slot you could use, you get +3 AC, otherwise +1 AC. Depending on the slot you also get a certain unique benefit (see below)
*** Active: Summon Vines. Cost: 5 MP, moderate piety and hunger. Summons 1 to 3 snaplasher vines near you (how many you can get depends on invoc skill). Their HD and duration also rise with increasing invocations.
**** Regalia of Thorns: Same as vestment, but the other two slots
***** Briar Patch. Cost: 7 MP, high piety and hunger. Smite targeted briar growth. The space you select and the 8 surrounding spaces will grow briars (the things that thorn hunters grow) if the space is open. Their HD and duration increase with invocations. The briars are friendly to you, but you cannot walk through them.

Vestment and Regalia of thorns:
Upon initial Udzu worship, 2 of the aux slots are randomly assigned to vestment, the other 2 go to regalia. In addition to the AC, the following unique benefits are granted for picking a given slot:
hat: retaliatory headbutt
gloves: constriction melee
cloak: immunity to webs (they are destroyed as you step on them), nets are always destroyed with 1 struggle
boots: 5% chance that an enemy melee attack will fail
As of now picking these is permanent, I didn't include an undo ability like most of the proposals have

God Wrath:
The only way to anger Udzu is abandonment. Wrath effects include summoning of hostile snaplasher vines, shambling mangroves (higher XL) and thorn hunters (even higher XL). If already in combat, also possible to be hit with thorns/skewered, or force-lignified.

There's probably a lot of balancing that needs to be done w.r.t. specific numbers and such. This is also the only thing I've ever done with C++ or git, so the code and commits probably need refinement. I also haven't made any altar vaults or tiles.

The branch can be found here, it's current with trunk as of a couple days ago: https://github.com/MorganLeah/crawl

Any suggestions/feedback are welcome.

[nago]

It's very nice that you actually coded something!
Considering that dcss' development add a couple of gods each version, I hope this one could go in some experimental branch soon.

Just from reading the power, some thoughts:
[*] I believe some balance around AC bonus are necessary.
+3-7 AC for Fe or Op is a very strong bonus on itself, considering the only "penalty" is not being able to worship a stronger god like Trog or Fedhas. Likewise, getting +7-14 AC on Sp is ridicolous, and also Og would enjoy that a *lot*; finally also for "squishy caster" free +7-14 AC would be a big boon.
As balance, I think the AC bonus should depend on both piety and invocation skill and perhaps have a ER value like an actual armour - which could decrease with invo skill. It should definitely disable ozo's armour in any case.
[*] Fling Thorns: how barb works for enemies? On the paper it sounds a very abusable power against speed 10 monster: you hit them once, you walk away until they bleed, you repeat until the thing is dead without ever going into melee range or possibly having it always out of LOS. If it is so, this power should be totally changed - or just removed, this god has currently 3 active power and 2 passive one, which are kinda a lot
[*] the regalia\vestment thing looks a bit unbalanced to me: if constriction is same of naga\op, it is clearly much stronger of the other options. Moreover, cloak bonus is very situational - nets pretty much exist only in early D, realistically before getting the power, and in Shoals, web only in Spider - while the others are good during all the game. I'd say to change it to a 5% miss chance for any ranged attack, but that would kinda be similar effect to Qzlal's rmls.

[Lacuenta]

Fling Thorns: how barb works for enemies? On the paper it sounds a very abusable power against speed 10 monster: you hit them once, you walk away until they bleed, you repeat until the thing is dead without ever going into melee range or possibly having it always out of LOS. If it is so, this power should be totally changed - or just removed, this god has currently 3 active power and 2 passive one, which are kinda a lot

Isn't this just reflavored poison, which won't work if the monster doesn't move?

Anyway the god seems interesting.

Vestment and regalia could be more interesting:
If you make the
boot slot give constriction stacking poison on the the foe for every turn constricted the,
glove slot could give claws 3 then the,
cloak slot could give something like permanent shroud of Golub takes a few auts to recharge when broken (flavor protective thorns regrow) and,
hat slot, horns 3 plus mino headbutt.

[Aethrus]

I think there should be some EVP associated to the thorn armour, though something that's still relatively casting friendly. I don't see dodging being too easy in this state.

I don't know how feasible this would be, but what if it acted as actual armour, affected by armour skill, and races likes Felids or Octopodes might be able to train armour while worshipping Udzu / Griggy? Could be interesting for a God to offer that option that isn't normally available.

[WingedEspeon]

The main problem that I see with replacing armour slots is that it either gives so bonus to species like felid or it becomes disproportionally good on them.

[TeshiAlair]

Trog is disproportionately better for minotaurs than deep elves and makhleb is almost a no brainer on deep dwarves. This kind of thing happens. Also

If it was a slot you could use, you get +3 AC, otherwise +1 AC. Depending on the slot you also get a certain unique benefit (see below)

As far as barb, what if it immobilized intelligent enemies and damaged dumber/berserk enemies as they continue to charge?

[MorganLeah]

I haven't forgotten about this, just been very busy.

I believe some balance around AC bonus are necessary.
+3-7 AC for Fe or Op is a very strong bonus on itself, considering the only "penalty" is not being able to worship a stronger god like Trog or Fedhas. Likewise, getting +7-14 AC on Sp is ridicolous, and also Og would enjoy that a *lot*; finally also for "squishy caster" free +7-14 AC would be a big boon.
As balance, I think the AC bonus should depend on both piety and invocation skill and perhaps have a ER value like an actual armour - which could decrease with invo skill. It should definitely disable ozo's armour in any case.

The AC is very good for Fe/Op for sure, but not to the point that it makes them broken I don't think. I am going to move Sp/Og/Tr down to that tier of armour bonus though. I'm opposed to giving ER to the thorns, because that makes them more or less indistinguishable from real armour, which isn't the point of the god. An EV penalty isn't out of the question but the other armour penalties shouldn't be involved. And yes ozo's shouldn't be allowed.

Fling Thorns: how barb works for enemies? On the paper it sounds a very abusable power against speed 10 monster: you hit them once, you walk away until they bleed, you repeat until the thing is dead without ever going into melee range or possibly having it always out of LOS. If it is so, this power should be totally changed - or just removed, this god has currently 3 active power and 2 passive one, which are kinda a lot

I've been considering replacing the barbing effect with the chance to apply other debuffs, like blind/daze/slow and such. Invocations to increase probability/severity of effects, resistible by HD probably.

the regalia\vestment thing looks a bit unbalanced to me: if constriction is same of naga\op, it is clearly much stronger of the other options. Moreover, cloak bonus is very situational - nets pretty much exist only in early D, realistically before getting the power, and in Shoals, web only in Spider - while the others are good during all the game. I'd say to change it to a 5% miss chance for any ranged attack, but that would kinda be similar effect to Qzlal's rmls.

The vestment/regalia effects definitely need work. Some things I've done/thought about:
Cloak:
Definitely the weakest one. I've already made one change, making you always have spiny 1 under Udzu regardless of piety, and taking the cloak slot upgrades it to 3. It probably needs more though, the shroud idea from Lacuenta seems good, or something along those lines at least.

Gloves:
It might be fine, might be overpowered. Either way I'm considering replacing it with a chance to poison enemies you melee attack.

I like the boots one quite a bit. The helmet one is okay, could be more interesting perhaps, especially with the spiny upgrade on cloak.