God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned


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Post Sunday, 30th March 2014, 07:17

God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

Fedhas' sibling shares the god's affinity for flora but relishes the pestilential spread of brambles rather than the maintenance of the natural order.

This god's key mechanic is covering the character in an armour of thorns which grows over the body as piety increases, blocking off armour slots. Eventually the player is fully covered, and unable to wear any armour at all but receiving considerable defenses from the brambles protruding from their flesh.

Griggy likes making way for the bramble infestation (killing things) and dislikes when Thorn Hunters/Lotuses/Vine Stalker monsters die.

* Passive: Armour of Thorns: as piety increases aux slots become unavailable and are replaced by thorny growths on the body part each which each grant AC and an increasing spines retaliatory effect. The body slot should be the first to appear, and does have substantial encumbrance (or should it have 0?) At any rate, taking up these slots is the point here. It's a tradeoff between being able to benefit from body armor egos and the guaranteed benefits of the thorn armors.
** Active: Fling Barbs: Okay ranged damage invocation that also causes the barb status on the target (MP)
*** Active: Briar Patch: A briar patch appears around the targeted foe which hurts them when they melee it but does not block LOS/bolts (mp piety)
****
***** Active: Bed of Nails: Spines emerge from the ground across LOS which act like Leda's Liquefaction + barbs for all monsters walking across them (costs mp and piety)
******

Anyway, I think the thorn flavor is cool but of course it's not mandatory. The main mechanic which I want you to consider is the deity-provided armour that prevents wearing normal stuff. The hope is that characters who are looking for a nice defensive boost quickly will worship this god. Later on they may regret losing their slots but the compensation should be quite ample. I don't know what the numbers ought to be, exactly. It depends on if there's some problem with making Griggy's armour have non-zero ER that I'm not thinking of.

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Post Sunday, 30th March 2014, 07:44

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

n1000 wrote:The main mechanic which I want you to consider is the deity-provided armour that prevents wearing normal stuff. The hope is that characters who are looking for a nice defensive boost quickly will worship this god. Later on they may regret losing their slots but the compensation should be quite ample. I don't know what the numbers ought to be, exactly. It depends on if there's some problem with making Griggy's armour have non-zero ER that I'm not thinking of.
I really like how you clearly spelled out exactly what you were trying to achieve here.

I don't think "armour that prevents wearing normal stuff." is a good idea because there are already Felids, Trolls, Orges, Spriggans, and Demonspawn which have that mechanic. It's not a bad idea, just a little overused already.
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Post Sunday, 30th March 2014, 08:10

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

It's a problem I'm wrangling with. It needs to be determined whether this god should benefit felids et al. especially by giving them a source of AC (in which case, what's the downside?) or if it should only fill the slots which they could normally wear armour which would probably make the god totally worthless for, well felids at least.

Anyway, the inspiration for this god was actually giving other races some of the Demonspawn/Draconian experience, but the way you put it, reaver, it might be just regurgitating the same thing in another place. I guess we're just going to have to remove trolls, ogres, spriggans to make room for My God.

Seriously though, I appreciate your perspective and am going to have to think about this some more to see whether it's really a worthwhile idea with so many limited armor races existing.

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Post Sunday, 30th March 2014, 15:23

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

I don't think I would ever take a god that limited my access to resistances and other egos so severely, unless I was already playing a Felid and didn't expect to have that stuff anyway.

The active abilities seem ok but I wouldn't take a god just for them. Flavorwise, a god that wants you to spread the brambles seems like it should grant an evolution-like ability to upgrade plants to briar patches or something; and then should care about all plants, not just thorn hunters/lotuses (which are pretty rare).

Side note: if we're talking about the "G" namespace, I'd suggest naming a god (not necessarily this one) after D&D creator Gary Gygax. Gygax is a kickass name.
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Post Sunday, 30th March 2014, 17:41

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

I like it. :)
Maybe a little more variety could be used. Everything is 'suck on these thorns'.
Poisonous barbs/bramble?
Growing bramble that blocks monsters and hurts/poisons them when they hit it. Kind of like spores how they keep growing along a level? :o

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Post Sunday, 30th March 2014, 19:24

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

I like it. A few ideas/suggestions/questions:

Quick question: How does Crawl's monster AI handle being barbed?

In terms of flavor and distinctiveness from Fedhas, it kind of feels like Griggy and Fedhas are rival siblings; whereas Fedhas emphasizes (sun)light, reproduction, fruit, and the sustaining and life-giving aspects of nature (and abhors unnatural necromantic uses of corpses), Griggy has a darker side: thorns, dense bark, defenses against "unnatural" intruders—more of a Darwinian sense of the natural order; "Nature, red in tooth and claw," &c. At any rate, I think "flora, nature" is a large enough thematic area to support two gods without feeling redundant, even just at the level of flavor, and the abilities you suggested bear out this difference pretty well.

Anyway: As for the abilities themselves. Here's how I'd maybe see an "armor of thorns" mechanic working:

Upon joining: You get spines that scale up with char lvl. This happens regardless of other body slot mutations.

* Piety: If, and only if, you can wear body armor, that slot now becomes unavailable. You get +AC, starting maybe at +4, scaling up to +12 or something at highest piety.
*** Piety: If, and only if, you can wear gloves, that armor slot becomes unavailable. You get +4 AC from brambly growths along your arm. Your melee attacks have a chance (scaling up with piety) to cause constriction on hit. (Nagas get to constrict up to two enemies I guess?)
**** Piety: If, and only if, you can wear boots/barding, that armor slot becomes unavailable. You get +4 AC. You can now "root yourself" and harden your barky accoutrements, an activated ability that costs some MP and food (no piety). You cannot move while rooted, and you lose a lot of EV, but you get much higher AC. Your roots will eventually retract on their own, or you can uproot yourself, however uprooting yourself takes longer than one turn (say 30 auts).

Your helmet and cloak slots are unchanged.

Other than that: Perhaps briars should have chance to entangle enemies, similar to webs, opening up some synergy with stabbing strategies. (Worshiping Griggy should let you move through brambles unimpeded, obviously.)

I'd also like it if worshiping Griggy gave you immunity to webs/nets ("your thorns shred the web/net to tatters") as a small additional bonus, as well as immunity to hostile barbs, upon worship.

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Post Sunday, 30th March 2014, 22:11

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

I like the concept of a more defensive god, and this feels both multipurpose and thematic. Couple questions:

1. How does this interact with UC/Transmuters?
2. What if, rather than blocking wearing things, which is both a pretty big malus and wildly swingy depending on race, plus the fact that this god is probably not overpowered without it, it has the following effects:

Armour gains the "bramble" brand, which overwrites all previous brands. Brambles grow over time on the armour, increasing in maximum size and rate of growth as piety increases, and also increasing the encumbrance rating of the armour. Switching armour knocks bramble rating back to zero for that armour slot.

When hit by certain attacks, there is a piety-dependent chance that the brambles will absorb some of the effects and wither down a level, with a warning message.

Examples:
The flame hits your brambles, and some burn away.
The frost hits your brambles, and some freeze and snap.
The lightening hits your brambles, and some are blasted away.
The poison/negative energy hits your brambles, and some grow sick and wither.
Your brambles absorb the magical energy, and some dissolve away (+MR)

I would suggest these soft resistances be one of the final abilities, at a piety level expected by extended, when it is fairly safe to assume you'll have most resistances anyway, so you're trading reliability for +AC and versatility.
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Post Sunday, 30th March 2014, 23:15

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

Having the effects vary from species to species is good I think; so long as it avoids being overpowered for certain cases, asymmetry tends to create more interesting combinations of effects.

It isn't like Draconians would be greatly weakened by taking the version of the god I suggested; you already don't have a body armor slot, so part of the god doesn't apply to you, but you still get the other benefits which are worthwhile (cf. spriggans, nagas, and vampires don't benefit from the see invisible provided by Ash, but often take Ash as a god anyway). Meanwhile Ogres, Spriggans, and certain other monstrous species could benefit more from this god than other species would. Again, so long as the interaction isn't *too* powerful, that's ok. Nagas and Gargoyles would probably have to be a special case, in which the AC bonus does not stack with their innate AC (I think it would be fine and pretty simple if whichever source of AC yields highest overall AC value takes precedence), as it would be overpowered if they stacked, I think.
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Post Monday, 31st March 2014, 00:39

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

n1000 wrote:Griggy
tedric wrote:I'd suggest naming a god (not necessarily this one) after D&D creator Gary Gygax. Gygax is a kickass name.
"Griggy" sounds like a nickname; how about "Grignax"? :?

Once we have the tourney out of the way and some changes have been made to allow more than the current number of gods we have right now, I may take a stab at implementing this.

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Post Monday, 31st March 2014, 01:15

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

TeshiAlair wrote:Armour gains the "bramble" brand, which overwrites all previous brands. Brambles grow over time on the armour, increasing in maximum size and rate of growth as piety increases, and also increasing the encumbrance rating of the armour. Switching armour knocks bramble rating back to zero for that armour slot.

When hit by certain attacks, there is a piety-dependent chance that the brambles will absorb some of the effects and wither down a level, with a warning message.

Examples:
The flame hits your brambles, and some burn away.
The frost hits your brambles, and some freeze and snap.
The lightening hits your brambles, and some are blasted away.
The poison/negative energy hits your brambles, and some grow sick and wither.
Your brambles absorb the magical energy, and some dissolve away (+MR)

I would suggest these soft resistances be one of the final abilities, at a piety level expected by extended, when it is fairly safe to assume you'll have most resistances anyway, so you're trading reliability for +AC and versatility.

I would very much like too this kind of effect, be it on the armor, or like the original post suggested, on the player itself.

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Post Monday, 31st March 2014, 02:24

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

Well then let's try to think up some really good ideas in the meantime! btw, I really like what and into has suggested so far.
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Post Monday, 31st March 2014, 03:07

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

sgrunt wrote:
n1000 wrote:Griggy
tedric wrote:I'd suggest naming a god (not necessarily this one) after D&D creator Gary Gygax. Gygax is a kickass name.
"Griggy" sounds like a nickname; how about "Grignax"? :?

Once we have the tourney out of the way and some changes have been made to allow more than the current number of gods we have right now, I may take a stab at implementing this.

I thought dpeg wanted to save G for the gold god, though. Maybe shorten it to Rignax or something.
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Post Monday, 31st March 2014, 04:36

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

Viashino_wizard wrote:I thought dpeg wanted to save G for the gold god, though.

Clearly we need to implement that first, then!!

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Post Monday, 31st March 2014, 06:49

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

Rename as Driggy the god of doors and reflavor the AC boost as the player slowly becoming a weredoor.

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Post Monday, 31st March 2014, 06:52

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

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Post Monday, 31st March 2014, 06:58

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

Viashino_wizard wrote:I thought dpeg wanted to save G for the gold god, though. Maybe shorten it to Rignax or something.


As far as I'm concerned dpeg can "want" all he wants but Griggy is happening! :lol:

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Post Monday, 31st March 2014, 08:29

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

TeshiAlair wrote:Brambles grow over time on the armour [...] increasing the encumbrance rating of the armour.

It'd kinda suck to be a mage worshipping this guy, then. Granted, I guess the whole spines thing means he's probably better suited for melee characters, anyways.

The ability to do a demi-Tree Form sounds fun, as does the growth of spiny, magic-eating bramble armor. Since this is supposed to be a defensive god, I'd probably go for having the brambles grow over your armor rather than replace it entirely (though I could see it growing over an ogre's legs even though they can't wear boots; felids and octopodes are weird cases that we should probably figure out seperately).

The bramble-granted resistances kinda remind me of the Dragonskin Cloak (ooh, what if you combined the two...?). Since the brambles block armor egos, would you still be able to use resistances on jewellery and artifacts and such?
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Post Monday, 31st March 2014, 16:28

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

Well, the OP did say that the "replace armor" mechanic was the main focus of his idea:

n1000 wrote:Anyway, I think the thorn flavor is cool but of course it's not mandatory. The main mechanic which I want you to consider is the deity-provided armour that prevents wearing normal stuff. The hope is that characters who are looking for a nice defensive boost quickly will worship this god. Later on they may regret losing their slots but the compensation should be quite ample.


I agree that this is a potentially interesting trade off.

For balance purposes, perhaps the armor could make you "unwieldy," which would be a separate thing from encumbrance: You get an EV penalty similar to large size, but this doesn't give the melee/UC/spellcasting penalties that come with encumbrance. Somewhat punishes EV (you'll have to train more dodging or get higher dex for same level of EV), but in return you get guaranteed good level of AC quickly, without hurting spell casting or UC, and you don't have to worry about item drops, ?enchant armor, etc. Obviously the penalty to EV shouldn't be overwhelming. Perhaps species that are already large size wouldn't get an additional penalty from it? (So basically for EV purposes only, armor of thorns sets your body size to Ogre. If you are already Ogre/Troll it causes no additional penalty, your large body can wear the thorn armor without additional movement restriction.)

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Post Monday, 31st March 2014, 20:03

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

If this god is going to replacement armour slots w/ defensive bonuses, I think two things need to be true: first, the defenses granted by this replacement has to be at least competitive with decently-enchanted armour + armour skill. Second, replacing those slots needs to give a unique benefit of some sort. Spines is the obvious choice, but it's also not ideal for reasons already stated. The movement-affecting abilities stated in the original post are more interesting, but with enemy AI, barbs basically just means more damage. Perhaps something like this:

Armour slots are ordered feet, body, hands, cloak, head. When you lose a slot, you gain 6 AC if that slot was equippable; otherwise you gain 2 AC.
*: Lose first slot. Gain piety-dependent ability to blind enemies in reaction to ranged attacks.
**: Lose second slot. Gain piety-dependent ability to entangle enemies in reaction to melee attacks (entangle removes movement for a few turns).
***: Lose third slot. Gain ranged attack that costs piety and deals damage and pulls enemies closer. Gain one pip of dragonskin cloak-type resistance.
****: Lose fourth slot. Gain a second pip of dragonskin cloak-type resistance.
*****: Lose fifth slot. Gain passive constriction.
******: Lose sixth slot. Gain activated ability to cause a giant thorn apocalypse.

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Post Monday, 31st March 2014, 20:29

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

Would the thorn armor give you GDR?
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Post Monday, 31st March 2014, 20:37

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

It would give you infinite GDR.
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Post Monday, 31st March 2014, 21:01

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

Something to think about while I think about what implementing some of the particulars of this will entail: What will (G)riggy wrath entail? There are some obvious things like sprouting a briar patch around you or throwing barbs at you, but more ideas would be good.

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Post Monday, 31st March 2014, 21:29

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

I seem to be missing something really fundamental about this concept: I understand the conduct -- you give up armour slots. But in all variants proposed, you get AC and various damage powers (active and passive: spines, ranged damage, briars, constriction, entangle) in return??

I don't want to sound like I am just bashing a proposal that has obviously seen quite some thought, so I try to voice my reservations in another way: for most characters, choice of armour items is relevant -- this affects body armour type, use of Enchant Armour, acquirement, some shopping, egos/randarts decisions. All of this would be gone with the proposal, and I think my main gripe is that I don't see an additional, new source of choices for the player to make in return.
Moreover, I'd be afraid that followers of this god might look very uniform in the end.
And finally, some proposals made here might suffer from the "could be optimal to shed piety" syndrome. (I think this can work in principle; I am not sure if it is intentional here.)

All that said, I am absolutely confident that a defense-oriented deity can work. The current proposals seem too one-dimensional to me, though.

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Post Monday, 31st March 2014, 21:47

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

I see where you are coming from, dpeg, but I think there is a correct balance the god could strike.

Removing body armor plus one or at most two (I wouldn't go further than that) peripheral slots is a pretty major change but it actually puts more pressure on your other slots, especially jewelry, to make up for some resists in late game. To put it another way: Do you think getting monstrous on a Ds is boring? Because essentially that's what this god does as far as equipment decisions are concerned.

Clearly, you shouldn't get *too* much AC from the god (I think Lasty's version goes overboard here), otherwise the trade off is perhaps too good. And maybe in my version it was already too good for Trolls, Ogres, and the like—on the other hand I think a god who helped support monstrous species a bit more than other species would be welcome, so long as it isn't too good/overpowered. But then that's just a question of numbers.

I think the OP's ideas for abilities were good. When it comes to things that affect your ability to exercise some positional control over combat, the effects don't need to be very complicated or flashy to have nuanced tactical implications/considerations. I think this applies to the "improved !lignification" ability I proposed as well.

Finally: As for piety gain possibly being unwanted, easy way to fix that is, once you've gone over a certain point in piety, your lost slot stays lost even if you dip back below that point, you just lose the bonus associated with that slot until you regain the necessary amount of piety. Don't sign on to the god if you aren't willing to give up the slots.

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Post Monday, 31st March 2014, 21:53

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

Pardon double post, but had a different idea and other post was getting long:

What if you lost body armor plus, as piety progressed, two other randomly chosen slots? You couldn't game the system by optimizing monstrous species choice with intent on taking Griggy, and there would be a neat, unique element of randomness to the strategic implications of the god. A different passive or active ability could be associated with each of the two peripheral armor slots that you lose in this way.

So you'd end up with armor of thorns (spines + AC) instead of body armor, and lose two other slots randomly at ** and **** or something. These would be chosen upon worship and would remain the same if you left the god and rejoined, etc. You have to adjust your strategy somewhat around what you get, although all bonuses provided are beneficial and potentially useful/worthwhile, and comparable (not necessarily identical) in power.

Quick ideas:
Boots: +1 AC and "root self" activated ability as described above
Gloves: +4 AC and chance for constriction, as described above
Cloak: +4 AC and passive chance to entangle enemies if you actively walk toward them
Helmet: +1 AC and an activated ability that creates a temporary, one-tile-wide spot of dense foliage that blocks LOS; the dense foliage has HP and counts as an ally, enemies will try to destroy it.

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Post Monday, 31st March 2014, 22:06

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

and_into: Losing just two peripheal slots would go a long way to make worshipers less uniform, there is no doubt about that. Regarding monstrous: I came up with this, and there's a reason why it's (a) really rare and (b) quite disliked by some players. Granted, the god is a deliberate decision whereas monstrous just happens to your Demonspawn.

I agree that the abilities don't have to be flashy (although it's really cool if the final power is -- Zin, Lugonu, Trog are good examples here). On the other hand, abilities that provide *just* standard Crawl effects aren't too cool either. (I realise that n1000 does not do this.)

Anyway, to be more constructive, here are some ability ideas from me. I don't give them plant-flavoured names, but it should be obvious that they'd fit the theme.

Ranged constriction: Active ability, always works; needs clear (shooting) path to target. Creates a kraken-tentacle-style thing from character to target. Each turn, the target receives constriction damage and pulls the target towards the character (like slow apportation on a monster). The damage depends on piety and/or Invocation.

Thorns of Dorokhloe: Grows something around all empty spaces adjacent to the character. Everyone can see and shoot through this, but monsters who want to melee attack the character first need to hack away the plant. (Our choice if reaching is supposed to work through this or not. Also our choice if the player can exit through the plant, but I think it's better if not.)

Regarding armour slot decisions: what if the player can, at substantial piety costs, swap the available peripheal armour slots around? That way, no non-body armour you came across would ever be genuinely useless.
Last edited by dpeg on Wednesday, 2nd April 2014, 12:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Tuesday, 1st April 2014, 03:13

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

dpeg wrote:Ranged constriction: Active ability, always works; needs clear (shooting path) to target. Creates a kraken-tentacle-style thing from character to target. Each turn, the target receives constriction damage and pulls the target towards the character (like slow apportation on a monster). The damage depends on piety and/or Invocation.

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Post Tuesday, 1st April 2014, 03:57

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

tedric wrote:
dpeg wrote:Ranged constriction: Active ability, always works; needs clear (shooting path) to target. Creates a kraken-tentacle-style thing from character to target. Each turn, the target receives constriction damage and pulls the target towards the character (like slow apportation on a monster). The damage depends on piety and/or Invocation.

God of Kraken Form? YES PLEASE

We need a god of oceans whose ultimate invocation floods the entire room and summons a friendly kraken.

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Post Tuesday, 1st April 2014, 04:03

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

Viashino_wizard wrote:
tedric wrote:
dpeg wrote:Ranged constriction: Active ability, always works; needs clear (shooting path) to target. Creates a kraken-tentacle-style thing from character to target. Each turn, the target receives constriction damage and pulls the target towards the character (like slow apportation on a monster). The damage depends on piety and/or Invocation.

God of Kraken Form? YES PLEASE

We need a god of oceans whose ultimate invocation floods the entire room and summons a friendly kraken.


You might want to check this out:
https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8935

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Post Tuesday, 1st April 2014, 12:30

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

and into wrote:Clearly, you shouldn't get *too* much AC from the god (I think Lasty's version goes overboard here), otherwise the trade off is perhaps too good.


I may have gone a bit over, but not that far for a proposal that limits all slots; with full slots it's not that hard to get 36 AC, and usually get some peripheral bonuses as well, including things like magic/fire resistance, stat bonuses, and even running. Sacrificing all of that and also cashing in your god power for defense should mean you at least get a reasonable AC out of it.

I do think dpeg raises a good point about each worshipper of this god looking pretty similar, and about trying to add more choice into the way the god's powers play out; I think abilities that affect enemy movement are an interesting territory, but I think straight-up retaliatory damage isn't very interesting, for reasons others have already put forward.
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Post Tuesday, 1st April 2014, 21:08

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

I think granting immunity or piety-based resistance to spines and barbs would make sense. It'd explain why you don't accidentally stab yourself if you move your arms the wrong way. The ability to move through brambles (and only brambles) could be worth considering, a little mechanical nod to the fact Griggy and Fedhas are siblings (though if he does end up with Thorns of Dorkhole maybe not).

For wrath, he could root the player and (at high enough XP level) summon hostile thorn lotuses & hunters.

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Post Wednesday, 2nd April 2014, 02:16

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

viashino_wizard: good wrath ideas. I'm suggesting the same (and also barbing the player)

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Post Wednesday, 2nd April 2014, 05:37

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

Another wrath idea: he could temporarily meld one of your armor slots.
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Post Wednesday, 2nd April 2014, 10:47

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

I mulled this one over and think I can state more clearly one problem I have with the conduct as stated: divine conducts in Crawl generally mean not-using something you could otherwise use (spells for Trog, free item swapping for Ashenzari, haste for Cheibriados). In this sense, loss of armour slots is just the same. But I claim that there's a crucial difference: in all of the existing cases, you know exactly what you give up in advance. Contrary to that, every special armour item you find under Thorn god --especially randarts-- will make you cringe a little. (And if you don't believe me: check the postings about Demonspawns who lost their awesome helmet due to horns, or found one later in a shop.) You have the same experience with some species, of course (complete with the postings), but again, in this case the liability was known to you from the outset.

In other words, I think that a no-armour conduct is less fun than the conducts we have so far. Therefore, I want to stress the suggestion of (a) restricting only some slots --and_into proposed two-- and (b) giving players a way to swap restricted slots.

Summary: If the god restricts all armour slots, then not only will all followers look very uniform in that regard, this will also be a source of unfun. Giving players a way to work around not only brings back the fun of finding cool items, it can create new opportunities for choices.
Last edited by dpeg on Wednesday, 2nd April 2014, 20:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Wednesday, 2nd April 2014, 16:47

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

Quick suggestion: I really like the idea of this god as a cruel, vicious-nature counterpart to Fedhas, but right now it seems like it's exclusively a thorns thing. Nature's got more to offer than that, why not get some animals in the mix? As it stands many of the proposed passive abilities are retaliatory, so possibly this would be as well.
I'm thinking along the lines of how when Shambling Mangroves get low on health, some ravens or wasps burst out from inside them. Griggy could provide a similar thing, where at some level of piety (***?) small animals, birds/insects start nesting in your thorns, and when you take heavy damage/reach low health they pop out. Not very powerful creatures, but they could give you the slight boost you need, or more importantly block enemies from reaching you for little bit and give you a chance to escape.

Sar

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Post Wednesday, 2nd April 2014, 16:53

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

I wouldn't say a god that showers your enemies in flesh-melting acid, accepts flesh and blood sacrifices and greets you with cheerful "Spread life and death!" represents benign side of nature.

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Post Wednesday, 2nd April 2014, 16:56

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

Shard1697 wrote:Quick suggestion: I really like the idea of this god as a cruel, vicious-nature counterpart to Fedhas, but right now it seems like it's exclusively a thorns thing. Nature's got more to offer than that, why not get some animals in the mix? As it stands many of the proposed passive abilities are retaliatory, so possibly this would be as well.
I'm thinking along the lines of how when Shambling Mangroves get low on health, some ravens or wasps burst out from inside them. Griggy could provide a similar thing, where at some level of piety (***?) small animals, birds/insects start nesting in your thorns, and when you take heavy damage/reach low health they pop out. Not very powerful creatures, but they could give you the slight boost you need, or more importantly block enemies from reaching you for little bit and give you a chance to escape.


Jiyva basically has this ability already (jellies instead of small animals, but that isn't enough to make it unique imo).

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Post Wednesday, 2nd April 2014, 17:18

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

Borrowing from DS a bit, what about this god offers you a choice of several paths throughout the game. You can only pick 2 or 3, but you can pick them depending on your current build. (This suggestion may be too complex, but I feel its pretty unique and captures the flavor of the original proposal)

First set of choices:
Cloak of Brambles: Prevents cloak wearing, has conservation, has a repel missiles effect
Vined Shield: Prevents shield wearing, has high +SH that decreases per block but regens over time, inflicts barbs.

Second set of choices:
Helm of Thorns: Gives headbutt attack, prevents helmets/hats, absorbs spell miscasts.
Spined Greaves: Gives kicking attack, prevents boots, slows you but prevents enemy slows/para/tele/etc (so an enemy-only stasis).

Third set of choices:
Griggy's Hand: Gives powerful claw attack that causes bleeding and pierces the first enemy (so hitting two in a row), prevents gloves and allows for only one ring slot (goes on the "thumb")
Ironvine Flesh: Gives spines mutation effect, gives +rC, +rF, +rPois, and +MR, high AC, prevents body armour
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Post Wednesday, 2nd April 2014, 20:24

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

My variation on n1000's theme, drawing from everyone's suggestions and comments:

Udzu the Wild

The god of untamed vines and undergrowth, Udzu relishes the pestilential spread of brambles. Udzu strives to make the world into a private garden that Udzu alone lords over.

Udzu appreciates it when devotees make room for bramble infestation (killing things).

Upon worship:
-- Spinose Body: Spines (scales up with char lvl). Immunity to barbs, webs, and nets.
* Armor of Thorns: So long as you worship Udzu you cannot wear body armor, regardless of piety level. If you have at least one star of piety, you get +5 AC. Each additional star of piety beyond the first gives +2 AC (maximum +15 AC from this source at six stars).
** Active: Fling Barbs. Projectile targeted, range 6. Cost: 2 MP, small piety and hunger. Ranged damage that causes barb status on target.
*** Vestment of Thorns: Dense natural growths cover more of your body. Chooses Gloves or Cloak slot. So long as you worship Udzu you cannot wear the chosen piece of armor. If you have at least three stars of piety, you receive +4 AC and one of two bonuses, as follows. If gloves blocked: Chance for constriction upon attacking enemy in melee; you can only constrict up to one enemy at a time in this way. If cloak blocked: Upon striking an enemy in melee, chance to cause the enemy's next attack to be fumbled ("thick roots trip your assailant").
**** Active: Whip Vine. Smite targeted, range 6. Cost: 5 MP, moderate piety and hunger. Constricts target at range; will continue to constrict target so long as you do not move, though you may take other actions without breaking the constriction (cast spells, attack, etc.) Only one enemy at a time may be constricted in this way.
***** Regalia of Thorns: Dense natural growths cover more of your body. Chooses Headgear or Boots. So long as you worship Udzu you cannot wear the chosen piece of armor. If you have at least five stars of piety, you receive +1 AC and one of two bonuses, as follows. If boots blocked: As an active ability, for 3 MP and small hunger cost you can "root self" for bigger boost to AC; retracting roots takes 30 aut. If headgear blocked: As an active ability, for 6 MP and moderate piety and hunger cost you can summon a dense, immobile 1-tile wall of rough undergrowth and foliage that blocks LOS; this counts as an ally and has an HP meter.
****** Active: Briar Patch. Cost: 8 MP, high piety and hunger. You surround yourself with nettling briars that entangle and damage enemies unfortunate enough to wander into them. Beware, however, for while you will take no damage from the thorns, the briars are so dense that they will limit even your movement.
Active: Natural Selection. Free. You can choose either Vestment or Regalia, and are presented with option to switch the blocked armor slot to the other type in that category, or else remove the growth entirely (freeing up the armor slot but losing the bonus). This ability may only be used twice per game.

Whatever current set of growths have been chosen for your character, and any alterations made by natural selection, shall remain regardless of leaving/rejoining the god, etc. etc.

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Post Wednesday, 2nd April 2014, 20:48

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

I don't think having a 6* ability is a good idea on a god with multiple piety cost invocations. Not counting 1-time gifts (weapon blessings, Zin mutation removal, etc) Jiyva is the only god that gives a new ability at 6*, which is a passive effect.

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Post Wednesday, 2nd April 2014, 20:57

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

I like and_into's latest version quite a bit. A few comments:

* headgear regalia sounds like a much stronger type of power than footgear regalia (repeatable blocking LOS and buying time for escape > immobility and AC boost). I really hate the idea of using root-self abilities though, so for me to be interested it would have to be very strong. Here are some things that would make me consider rooting myself: Becoming untargetable by ranged attacks. Gaining regeneration of 5+ hp/10 AUT in addition to massive defenses. Dealing decent damage per AUT to all enemies.
* barbs against enemies is almost always identical to just dealing more damage, since it's usually trivial to provoke the enemy to move. Perhaps a more interesting status could be used here, such as blind or entangle (no movement)?
* Could the enemy break free of Whip Vine constriction by moving? If so, I'm not sure it does much. Either it should prevent the enemy from moving, or the constriction effect should remain unless the enemy blinks or leaves LOS.
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Post Thursday, 3rd April 2014, 02:49

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

Lasty wrote:* barbs against enemies is almost always identical to just dealing more damage, since it's usually trivial to provoke the enemy to move. Perhaps a more interesting status could be used here, such as blind or entangle (no movement)?

It might not be very interesting in terms of game mechanics, but it fits the god's flavor really well. It's kind of like Zin's Recite turning enemies into salt. Most of the time it's functionally identical to killing them, but it reinforces Zin's themes.
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Post Friday, 4th April 2014, 00:07

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

and into wrote:Udzu appreciates it when devotees make room for bramble infestation (killing things).
This is the only thing out of that post which I don't like 100%, if only because it seems like there's not a super strong connection there. That's mostly a flavor thing, though. Perhaps if killing more and more enemies on a floor spawned more and more infesting brambles around it randomly, possibly just as a visual thing.
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Post Friday, 4th April 2014, 01:35

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

Shard1697 wrote:
and into wrote:Udzu appreciates it when devotees make room for bramble infestation (killing things).
This is the only thing out of that post which I don't like 100%, if only because it seems like there's not a super strong connection there. That's mostly a flavor thing, though. Perhaps if killing more and more enemies on a floor spawned more and more infesting brambles around it randomly, possibly just as a visual thing.


Idea: earn piety like Fedhas - pray near corpses to generate not toadstools but briar patches. (This would necessitate the player being able to move through briar patches, in all likelihood.)

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Post Friday, 4th April 2014, 10:06

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

This looks interesting. I'll try to recap and_into's proposal:
  • Guaranteed, fixed AC instead of body armour (and two side slots). This means that thorn god followers will forfeit AC and EV (no news here, that'd be true for all proposals on this page).
  • Passive retaliation (the spines).
  • A ranged attack (the barbs are more for flavour than for gameplay, I think).
  • Ranged constriction (with the really interesting caveat of not-moving)
  • A final power whose value I don't really understand.
  • Melee range constriction (like nagas) OR incapacitate melee targets.
  • Active AC boost at cost of immobility OR thorn ring (limited Tomb).
I think the ranged attack is out of the place -- players will not take this god for access to ranged damage (note how Makhleb purposefully provides minor and major versions of summons and ranged damage). Given the gameplay theme of this god --which in my opinion is direct player-monster interaction with a focus of positioning (see the melee vs ranged effects)-- I suggest a different power instead:
  • Can net an enemy in sight (needs beam path). Only one target at any time. Has a duration (thematically, could use breath timer).
Nets are strong, useful early on and provide a way to incapacitate one monster at a distance.

Next, I like ranged constriction better without smite targeting, i.e. requiring a beam path. Showing a kraken-style tentacle might have been too much, but position becomes irrelevant with smiting.

I understand that Regalia is thematically about standing still, either because you're rooted or because you surrounded by the thorn ring. However, there are questions: how does boots regalia interact with blinking and teleportation? Can we assign a sane AC boost to make this work, or should there be some other effect? The requirement to stand still fits nicely with ranged constriction. The ability to unroot in 30 aut could play awkwardly, though: one miskey, and you might die (this is like Cheibriados, only that that god is all around this mode of playing). Perhaps the effect should be temporary instead? Or temporary duration plus an ability to unroot, with a piety cost. Given that thorn ring will be (unlike Tomb) often used for safe teleporting (which I am not too about), what if rooting gave great MP/HP regeneration boost -- the flavour is certainly there.

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Post Friday, 4th April 2014, 23:39

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

Question: how would this god interact with Transmutations?
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Post Saturday, 5th April 2014, 05:24

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

spudwalt wrote:Question: how would this god interact with Transmutations?

I'd assume anything that melds a certain slot would disable the corresponding god power (i.e. most forms suppress your thorn armor). Though letting the thorns stay while transformed would make him very attractive for transmuters.

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Post Saturday, 5th April 2014, 07:13

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

I'd tend to lean towards allowing thorns to persist while transformed -- partly because divine abilities often overcome otherwise immutable effects (like Lugonu's Bend Space and stasis) and partly because I like transmuters. Of course, if having those abilities while in bat form or dragon form or something would be overpowered, I could see it going the other way.
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Post Saturday, 5th April 2014, 11:47

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

I think griggy is like Malk, but with transmutations instead of conj/summoning. You give up slots in return for cool abilities, just like with transmutation.

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Post Saturday, 5th April 2014, 23:05

Re: God Proposal: Griggy the Thorned

dpeg wrote:Next, I like ranged constriction better without smite targeting, i.e. requiring a beam path. Showing a kraken-style tentacle might have been too much, but position becomes irrelevant with smiting.


From a flashiness standpoint, a Kraken-style tentacle would be pretty awesome. Actually, have Kraken-style tentacles shoot out everywhere and grab every enemy in sight (similar to a Tentacled Starspawn) would incredibly fun from a flashy standpoint, but I don't know how well it would actually work.

A tentacle that pulls enemies towards you while they're constricted would also work well with the god's general theme of positioning. Or maybe that's what you already had in mind, I'm not sure. What exactly is the mechanical difference between ranged constriction and a net anyway?
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