Offhand Knife

[bcadren]

In Devchat I was told that these would not violate the ban on 'dual wielding' because of the way they work (altering an existing mechanic instead of dicking with the major balance; or needing major recoding (true dual wielding would need to change how the "W" key works.)

These are two concepts for SH slot 'Weapons' in both cases; they provide significantly less damage than a high powered weapon would and a little shield hand. I would only want one to make it in; if either did, both would be...well they fill the same idea slot in production:

1. "Bashing" Shield Ego. Shields of Bashing, perform a secondary attack at a similar frequency to the "Offhand Punch" of a UC user. It's an auxiliary hit that damages by [3+(Shields/3) (damage varying based on Shield type, DEX and STR is up for discussion, but I don't have numbers)]. (This ego is worse that several egos and far worse than a randArt Shield of Slaying. BUT, choosing to have an auxiliary attack with your shield can be a viable choice; especially if you are already using shortblades and thus the damage isn't that much less than your main weapon.)
2. Sai or 'Offhand knife'. This is a bit more unique. It's a true 'weapon' that can only equip to Shield Hand. (Game would need to understand it as an armor piece and not a weapon thus it uses only one enchantment value and counts as 'armor'). A Sai or Offhand knife would provide a base Shield Value of 2 (less than a buckler), along with an attack from it's base type (3 Dam, +8 Acc) Weapon; delay is unique (based off existing offhand punch mechanic instead of normal weapon delay; (33% chance of triggering everytime you hit with your normal weapon)). Any enchantment on this weapon affects the Dam, Accuracy and SH offered equally. It can also receive any brand a dagger can; though gods cannot be asked to brand it (they consider it a shield). This effectively allows you to have a weaker second attack, which may be branded and occurs 1/3 of the times you attack with your main weapon. Uniquely it also uses the Short Blades and Fighting Skills normally for the damage and the Short Blades skill (instead of Shields) for the SH. This stands as a buff to shortblades as well as a viable (less defensive) option for any user of 1H weapons. 2H weapons would keep their place as highest dam and this would only provide the option to choose less SH in return for a (possibly branded) auxiliary attack and maintenance of all your EV.

[tedric]

I like the idea here. You could differentiate them by making the shield bash evokable, with a chance of 1 tile knockback.

[red_kangaroo]

I'd say they are differentiated enough as bcadren presented them.

...and I like it!

[Senban]

As a minor note on terminology, the business end of a sai is a blunt steel rod rather than a blade (I'm pretty sure the notion of stiletto bladed sai comes from TMNT). My suggestion for naming this kind of weapon would be to call it a main gauche, which I think is a pretty widely understood term.
If there was any way of doing it elegantly I'd love to see cloaks become equip-able as off hand weapons and throw-able (as short ranged 1 turn nets) so that assassins could take their cloak 'n' daggering as literally as possible.

[Lasty]

I like the offhand knife proposal, but it offers some problems that need to be discussed and resolved:
* Does it enchant with ?EA or ?EW? If the former, enchanting it highly would never happen; if the latter, it makes an easy sink for all your ?EWI.
* At base damage of 3 separately resistible w/ AC, it'll do virtually nothing for a good chunk of the game, requiring high enchantment or slaying before it noticeably impacts damage.
* If this can receive brands like elec/distortion/pain, it would be absolutely nuts, and thus it probably should not be allowed.
* Would offhand damage be influenced by short blades skill? Could it cause stabbing?

In some sense these proposals are meant to replicate the effect of wielding 2-handed weapons: you do more damage in exchange for a hand; these split the difference a bit by saying you get some SH value and also extra damage. From this perspective, the proposals don't add much . . .

[Lyrick]

If there was any way of doing it elegantly I'd love to see cloaks become equip-able as off hand weapons and throw-able (as short ranged 1 turn nets) so that assassins could take their cloak 'n' daggering as literally as possible.

Why not just make it an ability for cloaks in general.

Evoke any cloak to cover a medium-large sized foe (success depends on target's size, HD, EV, and your stealth/fighting skill) and suppress them as long as you don't move from your spot, making them unable to move or attack, suffocating them (constriction-like damage, increases based on enchantment), and muffling their shouts greatly. Spellcasters can't cast spells. They have a chance to escape each turn based on their HD/EV and your strength/level, or slash your cloak to make a way if wielding an edged weapon (reduces enchantment by 1, unless its artifact in which case it can't tear at all), slash success depends on their damage and your stealth/dex. Depending on how well you overpower them, you can make more effective stabs; very high suppression factor (some combination of str, dex, stealth, weapon level, and level) completely pins them down and lets you do tier 1 stabs, over and over and over again.

new cloaks ego: "Suppression", which increases the success rate of suppression and improves your ability to stab suppressed foes a little.

artifact:

the +1 cloak "Assassin's Embrace" {suppress, +2 str, +2 dex, +Stealth, -Noise, whisper}

improves suppression (slightly better over an ordinary cloak of suppression)
affects str, dex (+3)
makes wearer more stealthy
grants a 1 radius aura that reduces noise by flat 10.
occassionally whispers to you.

[and into]

Spoiler: show

Offhand Knife: now un-derailed by weirdness.

[Lasty]

You cut the thread one post too late.

[bcadren]

I like the offhand knife proposal, but it offers some problems that need to be discussed and resolved:
* Does it enchant with ?EA or ?EW? If the former, enchanting it highly would never happen; if the latter, it makes an easy sink for all your ?EWI.
* At base damage of 3 separately resistible w/ AC, it'll do virtually nothing for a good chunk of the game, requiring high enchantment or slaying before it noticeably impacts damage.
* If this can receive brands like elec/distortion/pain, it would be absolutely nuts, and thus it probably should not be allowed.
* Would offhand damage be influenced by short blades skill? Could it cause stabbing?

In some sense these proposals are meant to replicate the effect of wielding 2-handed weapons: you do more damage in exchange for a hand; these split the difference a bit by saying you get some SH value and also extra damage. From this perspective, the proposals don't add much . . .

• I don't care which scrolls it uses, myself. Because the game counts it as armor, having it work with ?EA would probably be easier than special casing it.
• It's based on Offhand Punch in that regard. The Punch is similar [3 + UC/3 (12 at 27 UC)]. At max enchantments, as well as the percentile bonuses of Fighting and Shortblades; it's still only [6 + 1d9 (compare to 8 +1d9 for a dagger)].
• I guess being branded is part of the idea. It triggers on 1/3 melee hits and does weak base dam; brands do allow it to be more noticeable. I don't know if the list of brands need to be shorter to prevent being to strong or weak. But, multiple brands or stacking brands is part of the idea (applying poison faster with two venom weapons, etc.) This is something that only having the offhand could do.
• Yes, uses Short Blades for dam multiplier and SH. No cannot cause Stabbing (it hits AFTER the main hit which has the stabcheck; stabbing a Paralyzed enemy twice in a turn would be nuts).

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Side Note:
I do like the cloak idea. Always found it odd that you are specifically told you can't wield armour, but can manage to wield anything else, regardless of how useless. You awkwardly bash the Kobold with the choko. Using a cloak as a throwing weapon does sound interesting.