Proposal: Make beogh playable by ogres, trolls, etc.

[Tiktacy]

Proposal: Expand beogh to other species.
Implementation: Start out expanding to ogres and trolls using their variety of flavors.
Reason: Improving replay value, more variety, etc.

Why is beogh specific to only one species? It doesn't seem fair to me to make such a unique god only playable by a species will such tippy aptitudes.

How about expanding him to several races? Like trolls and ogres, probably any species would work, but trolls and ogres already come in a variety of flavors like orcs so it would be a simpler way to start. He is cool at first, but hill orcs of beogh have nearly no replay value for me, and I can only guess other people feel the same way.

Obviously, there would need to be changes to his flavor and mechanics, but if something isn't changed then I would almost prefer beogh would just be removed since he doesn't seem to fit crawls design goals as well as he should.

[DracheReborn]

Yes. Make Beogh the god that gives you orcish armies, rather than be the racist god of orcs.

In terms of mechanics, the only thing that was orc specific before was the use of orcish gear, but that's gone now. Instead, Beogh now just gives a bonus for any armour. Ogres and Trolls, while more thematically fitting, actually won't benefit as well from this aspect of Beogh at least.

Other than that, none of Beogh's gameplay actually requires you to be an orc.

Flavor would need to be changed, but that's not too hard. I would be happy to add monspeak lines for followers of non-orc Beoghites.

[bcadren]

Is it just coincidence that this and this were posted around the same time? o_o;

[Tiktacy]

Is it just coincidence that this and this were posted around the same time? o_o;

No, all my posts are inspired by things I see on other forums. That one in particular was what made me think of this.

[Tiktacy]

Yes. Make Beogh the god that gives you orcish armies, rather than be the racist god of orcs.

In terms of mechanics, the only thing that was orc specific before was the use of orcish gear, but that's gone now. Instead, Beogh now just gives a bonus for any armour. Ogres and Trolls, while more thematically fitting, actually won't benefit as well from this aspect of Beogh at least.

Other than that, none of Beogh's gameplay actually requires you to be an orc.

Flavor would need to be changed, but that's not too hard. I would be happy to add monspeak lines for followers of non-orc Beoghites.

They don't HAVE to be orcish, do they?

Maybe letting species have small armies of their own species would be a better mechanic then just orcs.

[DracheReborn]

They don't HAVE to be orcish, do they?

Beogh is currently orcish, so if you're going for the simple change that doesn't affect gameplay much but just gives you more options...

Armies of other types would be a lot more complicated. Monster types don't really correspond well to player species.

[Tiktacy]

They don't HAVE to be orcish, do they?

Beogh is currently orcish, so if you're going for the simple change that doesn't affect gameplay much but just gives you more options...

Armies of other types would be a lot more complicated. Monster types don't really correspond well to player species.

Fair enough, perhaps expanding to all the denizens of orcish mines would just allow him to have more variety in what you can have on your side. He can just be the "orcish god" rather than the "god of orcs.

You are right about it being complicated, taking one step at a time would be better.

[TeshiAlair]

I feel that Beogh has always been kind of...awkward as a god, and would love to see him as the "army god", whether it be orcish or armies suitable to your species. Imagine a felid army.

[Leafsnail]

I agree with the idea of Beogh welcoming everybody (maybe except elves/dwarves if you want to maintain some flavour), but I think his powers should remain the same to avoid a balancing nightmare. I don't really see what is gained from making Beogh orc-only, really, and opening him up would allow for more variety in character creation.

The status quo would make sense if, say, Hill Orcs were an otherwise weak species who depended on Beogh to make them usable, but that really is not the case at all.

[khalil]

I do understand this idea, and actually, I think ogres could be justified, as I know they spawn in the Orcish mines, so presumably Beogh is OK with them. I think trolls might appear too, but I'm not sure.

[johlstei]

I brainstormed out a version of beogh that worked for all races on SA, there are some pretty cool sounding/weird implications. It'd be awfully cruel to pick him and not get shoals as a merfolk, or snake as a naga, or spider as a formicid. Obviously it wouldn't work for anyone without monster versions, but I'm kind of okay with that. Draconians or demonspawn could maybe switch in the endgame? I don't think it would be that strong but it would be fun - I think Beogh already serves best as a fun, flavorful concept for new players rather than a particularly strong god, and this would make them more-so. I think many races would be viable at some point in the game - the listed lair branch ones, humans, ogres, elves, demonspawn, draconians, trolls, etc.

[AzuredreamsXT]

The hell guys...Beogh's flavor, his flare, is in his unmitigated hatred of all foul non-orcs! Orcs are the chosen race, Beogh is their god, and you can be their messiah, but only as an orc dammit!

Seriously though, making him available to non-orcs wrecks alot of what's cool about him IMO, and making him available to pretty much any race completely ruins him. Just my two cents, but I love Beogh the way he is, and I hope the devs do as well!

[Quazifuji]

I like the idea of opening Beogh up, but I think the "Beogh works exactly how he does not, except for your race rather than necessarily orcs" would clearly be extremely problematic. From a gifting standpoint, you can just have him give minions of your race that are functionally identical to the current orcs, which is awkward thematically but works well gameplay wise. But I think the coolest part of Beogh is the whole conversion mechanic, and the conversion mechanic would probably have balance problems with any race besides orc: it would end up being incredibly powerful in all branches but one, and nearly useless everywhere else (yeah, Orcs also have it especially powerful in one branch, but it's one of the easiest branches in the game, and gives you pretty weak minions - it would be much more ridiculous for, say, elves).

So personally, I'd want a flavor justification to keep orc conversion while allowing other races to be it. Trolls and ogres would work because, as people have said, Beogh already seems to accept them in the mines, but I'd like more than that.

One possibility would just be to reduce the racist-ness of Beogh and turn him into a military god who is primarily worshiped by Orcs. Or maybe even an orc god who will still accept non-orc followers (but rarely receives them). It could be a bit similar to Jiyva - Jiyva's primarily worshiped by slimes, but will still happily accept vertibrate followers as long as they're willing to convert to slimy, amorphous agenda.

Granted, this would hurt the whole "Messiah" flavor of Beogh, which I think is fun, but maybe there's a way to work. Basically, I think Beogh's minions should stay orcs (or at least mostly orcs), but a flavor justification for allowing other races while keeping the same (or very similar) mechanics would be nice.

The hell guys...Beogh's flavor, his flare, is in his unmitigated hatred of all foul non-orcs! Orcs are the chosen race, Beogh is their god, and you can be their messiah, but only as an orc dammit!

Seriously though, making him available to non-orcs wrecks alot of what's cool about him IMO, and making him available to pretty much any race completely ruins him. Just my two cents, but I love Beogh the way he is, and I hope the devs do as well!

Yeah, but "gameplay over flavor" is a huge part of Crawl's design philosophy, and I think is responsible for many mechanics (or lacks of mechanics) that make many people like it so much. The current flavor of Beogh is fantastic, but as far as I can tell flavor is literally the only reason to restrict him to orcs, and Crawl's design tends to follow the philosophy that if flavor is literally the only reason for a gameplay restriction, then it should be changed to improve gameplay.

[godzilla]

I like the idea of opening beogh up for other mine races (i.e. Ogres and Trolls.)
Why not let him still only give orcish armies?
Maybe let the player convert ogres/trolls (very rarely) for flavour.

[bcadren]

From a practical standpoint; Beogh is a much weaker version of Yred.

You get smiting and an armor boost instead of Drain Life and Pain Mirror. [Yep. Completely screwed on the invocations side.]

They are comparable mostly because they are the two 'permanent ally' gods. Yred gives weak mindless zombies and similar tier stuff until your piety has been high for a good while; then gives stuff as powerful as Ghouls, Death Cobs, Bone Dragons and Profane Servitors.
While Beogh gives you weak orcs that can grow into High Priests and Sorcerers.

The Experience sharing helps Beogh Orcs grow in HD faster than other allies and the Orc promoting to Priest then High Priest or Warrior then Knight, then Warlord. But ultimately; these allies are weaker than Ghouls, Bone Dragons and Profane Servitors. Not to mention; being all Organics, they are close to useless in Postgame (everything gets tormented, they might as well be Bags of Meat from MeatSprint), making it a 3-rune game god only (or at least mostly with considerable handicap for post game).

Beogh's power growth is faster; but max power is lower.
From a pure gameplay perspective..there's very little reason to keep him at all; in 90% of circumstances Yred is a much better choice...Unless you really plan to use the cheaper "Smiting" invocation a hell of a lot.

In general Beogh could use a buff. At very least offering more powerful allies at higher piety. The really unique thing (from a gameplay perspective) is the XP sharing between allies and their promotion; but why not have:
Tengu -> Tengu Conjurer -> Tengu Reaver
Deep Elf -> Deep Elf Summoner -> Deep Elf Demonologist
Draconian -> Green Draconian -> Green Draconian Priest
etc. (Two of those are possible already from Mercenary Cards)

Then the allies would at least be better than Yred, though probably still inferior for hell, tomb, etc. (still all affected by Torment).

[jjormang]

Adding Kobolds in that list would be great.

[and into]

To be fair, susceptibility to torment notwithstanding, both Yred and Beogh are pretty bad beyond 3 rune game (abyss and slime are not good for followers) and tend to allies get chewed up extremely quickly in Zot as well. On the other hand both have mild wrath—Yred even more so but Beogh isn't bad either—so switching is fairly painless, which is a nice strategic consideration for these two gods.

[omegonthesane]

I'd be in favour of letting Beogh be worshipped by anyone who spawns in the Orcish Mines. Which IIRC would be ogres, trolls, and kobolds. Maybe Demonspawn too, because hey, they could be half-orc half-demon. But, making him be usable by everyone of every race robs him of a lot of flavour.

And possibly deep elves too, since orc warbands sometimes show up in the Elven Halls and work alongside the deep elves.

[dpeg]

It's a bit silly that there are two parallel discussions about this. Anyway, I commented in the other thread, and will not repeat myself here (I simply saw that one first). In a nutshell: I believe that Beogh is the orc god and should stay that way. Beogh has always been intented as the god of the orc and the Orc branch, not as the god of permanent allies.

[KoboldLord]

Beogh's job in the game is to be in Let's Plays on various message boards around the internet. Crawl is the roguelike that lets you play Orc Jesus. Non-players who know basically nothing else about Crawl might still remember that bit of trivia from watching Let's Plays or hearing Crawl players talk about the game, and it's going to draw new players into the game. Beogh is our mascot character, so to speak. It probably wouldn't be worth spending developer time to try to create a mascot character from scratch, since there's a high likelihood of failure and it would cost just as much developer time as any other feature, but since we already have an established mascot there is absolutely no gain possible for getting rid of it. Certainly nothing that would compensate for the definite loss.

It isn't good to make gameplay sacrifices for flavor, but that doesn't mean flavor is bad. Flavor is still good, just not the highest order of good.

[bcadren]

Honestly why I started playing Crawl was because the hunger system was the most complicated of any I'd ever seen. (And an article that I got published into an academic journal around the time attributed to that fact [I examined 92 games, including 8 Roguelikes; I know]). AND...apparently chunk eating is going so people that come based off my writing will be disappointed. hah.

Seriously though; I feel like Beogh is something everyone tries once because of the odd flavour and never again, because it's not actually a good god choice...then again I play Fedhas all the time, more because of the flavour than being a good god choice. I feel like [at very least] Beogh can be buffed to be a serious god choice without...killing the flavour.

[Sar]

Beogh is actually fairly strong in my experience.
Fedhas is one of the strongest gods. Probably the second strongest after Ely.

[bcadren]

Beogh is actually fairly strong in my experience.
Fedhas is one of the strongest gods. Probably the second strongest after Ely.

I'd say Ely isn't as strong as Makhleb. I'd also say Yred >>>> Beogh. I'd also say THE STRONGEST god is Lugonu. Putting distortion on whatever you want and Corrupt, which can defeat anything (I had a AK run where I killed all the hell lords and the Royal Jelly with Corrupt.

Fedhas is...really strong for a lot of the game, but loses a lot of it in late game. Wandering mushrooms just aren't strong enough to do much when the majority of enemies are immune to their confusion and Oklobs...though they do a fair amount of damage, friendly turrets aren't going to take out hell lords by themselves.

[/offtopic] If you want to do further god comparison do so in CYC, I guess.

[dck]

I think it's important to have a clear vision of how the game actually is before trying to change it in one way or another and judging by these comments that doesn't seem to be your case.
I also think it would be pretty terrible if Beogh gifted you troops depending on your race because then you either have obscure interactions between each race and beogh, or have to create a lot of bland monsters of X race to fit the new army-gifting god.

[Viashino_wizard]

Beogh is actually fairly strong in my experience.
Fedhas is one of the strongest gods. Probably the second strongest after Ely.

I'd say Ely isn't as strong as Makhleb. I'd also say Yred >>>> Beogh. I'd also say THE STRONGEST god is Lugonu. Putting distortion on whatever you want and Corrupt, which can defeat anything (I had a AK run where I killed all the hell lords and the Royal Jelly with Corrupt.

Fedhas is...really strong for a lot of the game, but loses a lot of it in late game. Wandering mushrooms just aren't strong enough to do much when the majority of enemies are immune to their confusion and Oklobs...though they do a fair amount of damage, friendly turrets aren't going to take out hell lords by themselves.

[/offtopic] If you want to do further god comparison do so in CYC, I guess.

How viable a god is in extended has basically zero impact on how strong they are because extended is dumb, tedious and also really easy by the time you reach it.

[bcadren]

Beogh is actually fairly strong in my experience.
Fedhas is one of the strongest gods. Probably the second strongest after Ely.

I'd say Ely isn't as strong as Makhleb. I'd also say Yred >>>> Beogh. I'd also say THE STRONGEST god is Lugonu. Putting distortion on whatever you want and Corrupt, which can defeat anything (I had a AK run where I killed all the hell lords and the Royal Jelly with Corrupt.

Fedhas is...really strong for a lot of the game, but loses a lot of it in late game. Wandering mushrooms just aren't strong enough to do much when the majority of enemies are immune to their confusion and Oklobs...though they do a fair amount of damage, friendly turrets aren't going to take out hell lords by themselves.

[/offtopic] If you want to do further god comparison do so in CYC, I guess.

How viable a god is in extended has basically zero impact on how strong they are because extended is dumb, tedious and also really easy by the time you reach it.

I did Cocytus at level 19 as my second rune on one run. *shrugs* I do see your point though...a lot of people just don't do any of those branches.

[Tiktacy]

It's a bit silly that there are two parallel discussions about this. Anyway, I commented in the other thread, and will not repeat myself here (I simply saw that one first). In a nutshell: I believe that Beogh is the orc god and should stay that way. Beogh has always been intented as the god of the orc and the Orc branch, not as the god of permanent allies.

Opening beogh up to trolls, ogres, and maybe kobolds would keep the flavor of it while still opening up a bit more variety to gameplay. If you wanted him to stay that way, you could make it so only orcs can walk on water. Anything at all that creates replay value is a good thing in my mind, and nearly everyone in this thread seems to be in favor of the idea.

You seem pretty persistent on keeping beogh the way he is based on flavor, but I encourage you to reconsider. Several distinguished players and the community in general has brought up several good ideas that all point towards beogh being more open ended.

[dpeg]

Tiktacy: Others want Beogh to stay true to the source, so what?

I just don't think that Beogh makes a good all-around god. I am very fine with Beogh as a niche god. On top of that, there's the mascot effect KoboldLord has desribed (and I have seen it, this is not delusional).

[Kate]

Closing this since there is already a parallel CYC thread.