Tile build: Melee animation


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Blades Runner

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Post Sunday, 23rd March 2014, 22:52

Tile build: Melee animation

Reasoning: Magic users and ranged classes have this "projectile animation" going on. And by the Gods it is fun to see your magic missile to splat that kobold, fireball engulf those pesky bees, or javelin of penetration mow down a row of orcs. Also its informative to actually see monsters shooting/casting.
But melee classes lack this luxury. You end up looking at the HP bars under monster's tile.
(That is why it is so gratifying for me personally to stab-kill monster, especially when they leave a blood puddle. :twisted: Because you can actually SEE results of your actions)

Proposal: Add animation for melee attacks, same as for ranged and magical combat - animation "blinks" for couple frames, just long enough to notice its direction.

Implementation:
Add 8 directional tiles for simple, cleaving and reaching attacks.
Imagine something like poison arrow tile, but less arrow, more "thrust' to it. A bit of opacity to avoid cluttering.

Crude Illustration:
ImageImage

Possible bonus implementations:
1) Attack tiles with yellow/blue tint depict a miss, same tiles with red tint depict successful hit.
2) Monsters also use attack animations so you can see which monster hits which of your minion in massive barfights.

Edit: Added poll
Mod edit: removed poll
Last edited by Curio on Sunday, 23rd March 2014, 23:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Sunday, 23rd March 2014, 22:54

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

Ranged animations already slow up the action considerably.

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Post Sunday, 23rd March 2014, 23:03

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

Sar kinda has a point, but I could get used to seeing the melee animations. Plus, isn't there a way to turn animations off, in case people don't want them?
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Post Sunday, 23rd March 2014, 23:04

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

Sar wrote:Ranged animations already slow up the action considerably.

Its not like you going to use both ranged and melee animation at the same turn.
I do not noticed slowing up from ranged animations, personally.
If animation lag presents a problem for some users on old machines, animation can be disabled in options.

Sar

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Post Sunday, 23rd March 2014, 23:06

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

Curio wrote:Its not like you going to use both ranged and melee animation at the same turn.

What does this have to do with anything?
Curio wrote:I do not noticed slowing up from ranged animations, personally.

Have you ever played online?
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Post Sunday, 23rd March 2014, 23:10

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

Sar wrote:What does this have to do with anything?

As far as I understand, lag rises up if theres many animations at the same time per turn. If you ranged class, you already have shoot animation every other turn. It just adds same amount of processing power for melee characters.

Sar wrote:Have you ever played online?

Yes. But i do not see why i must be limited in my options in offline play because game lags online. Disable animations for online play.

Sar

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Post Sunday, 23rd March 2014, 23:12

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

There's a noticeable real time slowdown even if there is one animation per action because realistically in most fights you hold tab and it plays each animation.
If such option existed and was disabled by default, I would probably not care; good luck convincing a developer to do that extra work, though.
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Post Sunday, 23rd March 2014, 23:13

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

Here's a (repurposed) post I made on the subject the last time I saw it come up.

Let's assume for a second that I was not actually Arrhythmia, but rather I was minmay. Now, minmay's last win (http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/minmay/morg ... 201823.txt) had, roughly, 12K melee attacks. Then, if the animation took just one TENTH of a second, it would have extended his game by more than twenty minutes. Which, frankly, I can think of much better ways to spend than watching the screen slightly change.

If it was an optional, non-default rc-file setting, then I suppose I'd be fine with it, but I think the cost to "amount feature is used" ratio would keep it from ever being made.
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Post Sunday, 23rd March 2014, 23:18

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

Sar wrote:There's a noticeable real time slowdown even if there is one animation per action because realistically in most fights you hold tab and it plays each animation.
If such option existed and was disabled by default, I would probably not care; good luck convincing a developer to do that extra work, though.

you make an impression of really passive-agressive guy from those conversations I had with you couple past days. Maybe its just me but this community seemed much friendlier at the beginning.
Answering directly - I'm also have my work to do instead of "convincing" anyone, so if my proposal is not wanted, so be it.

Arrhythmia wrote:Here's a (repurposed) post I made on the subject the last time I saw it come up.

Let's assume for a second that I was not actually Arrhythmia, but rather I was minmay. Now, minmay's last win (http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/minmay/morg ... 201823.txt) had, roughly, 12K melee attacks. Then, if the animation took just one TENTH of a second, it would have extended his game by more than twenty minutes. Which, frankly, I can think of much better ways to spend than watching the screen slightly change.

If it was an optional, non-default rc-file setting, then I suppose I'd be fine with it, but I think the cost to "amount feature is used" ratio would keep it from ever being made.

That is actually a good constructive point. But if someone needs "efficiency" over "fun" - turn off everything else too - travel animation, rest delay and play blandly looking at the screen much shorter time :)
Last edited by Curio on Sunday, 23rd March 2014, 23:23, edited 2 times in total.

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Post Sunday, 23rd March 2014, 23:20

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

Curio wrote:you make an impression of really passive-agressive guy from those conversations I had with you couple past days.


OP if you think Sar is a passive aggressive guy you are going to be in for one hell of a trip
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Post Sunday, 23rd March 2014, 23:21

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

I try my hardest, thanks.

Anyway, currently ranged animations are not optional, to my knowledge, so I assumed melee animations would not be optional either, which would be pretty bad.
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Post Sunday, 23rd March 2014, 23:24

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

An optional simple animation couldn't hurt.
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Post Sunday, 23rd March 2014, 23:25

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

Curio wrote:you make an impression of really passive-agressive guy from those conversations I had with you couple past days. Maybe its just me but this community seemed much friendlier at the beginning.
You're probably right. For some reason the Crawl community has a lot of sarcasm and attacking in it, although all-out flame wars are rare, and I would not surprised if this has only developed over the past few years. For example, any post with thanks is noticeably more caustic or sarcastic than the posts around it. In GDD is probably partially the endless tide of people who don't read the "You must read" post, but it also exists in IRC and otherwise I don't know why this has developed or how to fix it. (And I'm well aware my own posting has been effected by it)

Curio wrote:That is actually a good constructive point. But if someone needs "efficiency" over "fun" - turn off everything else too - travel animation, rest animation and play blandly looking at the screen much shorter time :)
Both of those have been turned off by default while playing online for almost a year now.
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Post Sunday, 23rd March 2014, 23:29

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

I am okay with adding more animations to crawl if, and only if, they can 1. be fully disabled, 2. are fully disabled by default. Anything else is slowing down the game for people who may not want the game slowed down.
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Post Sunday, 23rd March 2014, 23:30

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

Sar wrote:I try my hardest, thanks.

Spoiler: show
Why? It reeks of teen angst and will harm you in long run irl


Sar wrote:Anyway, currently ranged animations are not optional, to my knowledge, so I assumed melee animations would not be optional either, which would be pretty bad.

Didnt know that they cant be disabled actually. Assumed if travel delay can be turned off entirely so is projectile animation.

You're probably right. For some reason the Crawl community has a lot of sarcasm and attacking in it, although all-out flame wars are rare, and I would not surprised if this has only developed over the past few years. For example, any post with thanks is noticeably more caustic or sarcastic than the posts around it. In GDD is probably partially the endless tide of people who don't read the "You must read" post, but it also exists in IRC and otherwise I don't know why this has developed or how to fix it. (And I'm well aware my own posting has been effected by it)

maybe just the growth of population is a factor.

Both of those have been turned off by default while playing online for almost a year now.
and thats understandable for online play. what about people that play online rarely and love some "eye-candy"? :) not many of those people i assume. everyone plays crawl TO WIN (ta-ta-tammm) now :lol:
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Post Sunday, 23rd March 2014, 23:34

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

duvessa wrote:I am okay with adding more animations to crawl if, and only if, they can 1. be fully disabled, 2. are fully disabled by default. Anything else is slowing down the game for people who may not want the game slowed down.

and here rises metaphysical question.
Why we play games?
To kill time AND to have some fun. Seeing how you actually slash some monsters in melee is fun, but takes up precious milliseconds you spend to play this game to kill the time...oh shit! :lol:

Sar

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Post Sunday, 23rd March 2014, 23:38

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

Can we please not use something as subjective as "fun" as an argument?
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Post Sunday, 23rd March 2014, 23:40

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

Sar wrote:Can we please not use something as subjective as "fun" as an argument?

Sure.
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Post Sunday, 23rd March 2014, 23:43

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

Curio wrote:To kill time AND to have some fun. Seeing how you actually slash some monsters in melee is fun, but takes up precious milliseconds you spend to play this game to kill the time...oh shit! :lol:


I would like to just reiterate that these milliseconds end up aggregating into a period of time you could use to, say, watch a short film, as opposed to watching an arrow (the same) arrow fly across the screen.
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Post Sunday, 23rd March 2014, 23:54

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

Arrhythmia wrote:
Curio wrote:To kill time AND to have some fun. Seeing how you actually slash some monsters in melee is fun, but takes up precious milliseconds you spend to play this game to kill the time...oh shit! :lol:


I would like to just reiterate that these milliseconds end up aggregating into a period of time you could use to, say, watch a short film, as opposed to watching an arrow (the same) arrow fly across the screen.


Yeah, you right of course. Though same goes for every other animation. But I tend to play crawl like rpg-alike game, not some elaborate chess-game (which it becomes when lacking of all things making it "alive")

So, when you play, i dunno,other rpg, strategy or fps games - all actions should take minimal to none time, so u can play faster? :)
And yup, im aware of http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeLongevity

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Post Sunday, 23rd March 2014, 23:55

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

I don't find anything fun about a monster flashing when I attack it in melee. I wouldn't find using Freeze any more fun if it flashed the tile blue upon usage. I don't like your definition of fun because it doesn't fit my definition of fun. This is an example of a really bad argument.
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Post Monday, 24th March 2014, 00:00

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

Abominae wrote:I don't find anything fun about a monster flashing when I attack it in melee. I wouldn't find using Freeze any more fun if it flashed the tile blue upon usage. I don't like your definition of fun because it doesn't fit my definition of fun. This is an example of a really bad argument.

And people that think like you are majority, so my proposal is not needed. I already get that.

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Post Monday, 24th March 2014, 00:34

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

No Curio people are fine with animations being added for melee attacks to offline Crawl as an option, which is a win-win for everyone. That is not rejection of your proposal but rather support for a (reasonably) modified version of your proposal. I am not a developer so I can't say 100%, but I'm pretty sure that if anyone who liked doing the animations came up with something agreeable (in the devs' opinion/judgment) in a patch, while adhering to the modifications stated above, it would be implemented. It is an optional improvement to interface for people who want it, at the cost of a quick modification to a file, and it does not affect those who don't want it. So really the only question and limiting factor is someone taking the time to make this cosmetic option available.

EDIT: Note that I voted "No" because the question was "Do we *need* melee animation?" I don't think we need melee animation and I personally don't want it, but I'd be fully supportive of that as an option for those into it. I'm not a big fan of ZotDef either, for instance, but wouldn't want it removed from the game, as its existence in the game only comes at the cost of (I guess) a very minimally larger (but still very small) file size for offline Crawl. Incidentally the way you phrased the vote and (to a lesser extent) the OP does in fact make it sound like it would be something we are forced to view, which might be where Sar got that impression. Perhaps that wasn't your intent but it wasn't entirely unreasonable to infer that you meant "add melee animations to game as default" which would be very annoying for people who do not care to see them.
Last edited by and into on Monday, 24th March 2014, 00:41, edited 2 times in total.

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Post Monday, 24th March 2014, 00:39

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

Sar wrote:currently ranged animations are not optional

You can set
  Code:
view_delay = 0
to disable them (which is relatively recent).

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Post Monday, 24th March 2014, 01:01

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

Couldn't a hypothetical melee animation be made such that if you press any button, it is immediately skipped (e.g. it only takes up time to play if you let it)?

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Post Monday, 24th March 2014, 01:22

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

I would like to see reaching weapons use an attack animation, even if other melee attacks don't.

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Post Monday, 24th March 2014, 01:52

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

Reaching is already much too slow and cumbersome, to the extent that I simply refuse to use polearms ever (except Wyrmbane because Wyrmbane is OP as fuck and even being constantly annoyed won't stop me from using it).
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Post Monday, 24th March 2014, 02:11

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

Patashu wrote:Couldn't a hypothetical melee animation be made such that if you press any button, it is immediately skipped (e.g. it only takes up time to play if you let it)?


It takes me about .08 seconds to double-tap a key, which is basically the same "one tenth of a second => 20 minute longer game" statistic that I posted above.
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Post Monday, 24th March 2014, 06:28

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

and into wrote: Perhaps that wasn't your intent but it wasn't entirely unreasonable to infer that you meant "add melee animations to game as default" which would be very annoying for people who do not care to see them.

Note that english is my third language, so i surely do not meant it as mandatory. But, as Sar mentioned, if few people want it - devs wont bother implementing it.

Patashu wrote:Couldn't a hypothetical melee animation be made such that if you press any button, it is immediately skipped (e.g. it only takes up time to play if you let it)?

Or just disable melee animation automatically while TABbing, and use it when you hit things manually.
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Post Monday, 24th March 2014, 06:38

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

You're bound to lose the argument when you start comparing Crawl to mainstream games. It's a valuable lesson, though. :P

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Post Monday, 24th March 2014, 08:26

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

Curio wrote:Note that english is my third language, so i surely do not meant it as mandatory. But, as Sar mentioned, if few people want it - devs wont bother implementing it.


Not necessarily. As the last survey showed, most crawl players actually play offline Tiles. So a feature that caters to them can very well be accepted, despite what the vocal online crowd says.

And anyway, stuff like this is easy enough to hide behind options. If someone is able and willing to do it, it will probably get in.

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Post Monday, 24th March 2014, 09:47

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

TheDefiniteArticle wrote:Reaching is already much too slow and cumbersome, to the extent that I simply refuse to use polearms ever (except Wyrmbane because Wyrmbane is OP as fuck and even being constantly annoyed won't stop me from using it).

I was really only thinking of animating when monsters use reaching attacks against the player, not when the player uses reaching. I didn't communicate that at all, though.

Many times, I'll retreat to a safe position and throw darts or press . waiting for an enemy to come into melee range, and I'll let it hit me two or three times with a pole arm instead of walking to where I can hit it just because I didn't notice it had a reaching attack.

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Post Monday, 24th March 2014, 09:48

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

Curio wrote:Or just disable melee animation automatically while TABbing, and use it when you hit things manually.

For what it's worth:

I play tiles almost exclusively, most of the characters I play are heavily melee focused, and I don't use autofight.

Autofight has terrible threat prioritization (or did, the last time I looked at its internals), and pressing Tab is no faster than just pressing a movement key for times when threat prioritization doesn't matter.

For me, turning on a forced animation "when hitting things manually" would strictly detract from the game for the reason Arrhythmia outlined above. On the off chance that this proposal is implemented, it really should have an rcfile option to be disabled.
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Post Monday, 24th March 2014, 21:07

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

I think this is strange: many posters are worried about the possibility of melee animations being added as a default. The chances of a single developer implementing this are astronomically small. The chances of such a change passing by every other developer are exponentially smaller.

People play crawl for vastly different reasons and I don't think it's right to act like others play the game incorrectly. I have seen elaborate stashes set up in castle-style vaults, wherein people leave trophy goods organized room-by-room. This doesn't even compare, it's just one of the first examples I can GIS up. Many players like the ornamental features of crawl, and that is fine for them.

I could see myself making and submitting tiles for this -- but that'd be way down the line, and who knows if anyone would want to put them in?

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Post Monday, 24th March 2014, 22:27

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

I would implement (and help make) this sort of thing under the same criterion given by duvessa; i.e. that it doesn't slow the game down at all by default. It'd be nice if that could be done in a more elegant way than "they're completely off by default," but if that's what it takes, then that's what I'd do.

Perhaps we could find some way of making animations in general interruptible, so that mashing or holding down tab wouldn't show anything, but pressing it once would; that would solve multiple problems at once. I don't know enough about the animation code to say if it's possible or not, though.
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Post Wednesday, 26th March 2014, 13:15

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

the option would be awesome

maybe even a little blood splat on the enemy you hit, 1-2 frames long
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Post Wednesday, 26th March 2014, 17:38

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

ontoclasm wrote:I would implement (and help make) this sort of thing under the same criterion given by duvessa; i.e. that it doesn't slow the game down at all by default. It'd be nice if that could be done in a more elegant way than "they're completely off by default," but if that's what it takes, then that's what I'd do.

Perhaps we could find some way of making animations in general interruptible, so that mashing or holding down tab wouldn't show anything, but pressing it once would; that would solve multiple problems at once. I don't know enough about the animation code to say if it's possible or not, though.


So, should I put my proposal on mantis? I would try to do tiles for "hits", but its been so long since i done anything in image redactor + as far as I remember you are much more skillful in this field :)
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Post Wednesday, 26th March 2014, 17:49

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

No, I'll remember; when/if I figure out how this might be implemented I'll post an Implementable asking for tiles for it. That'll be at least after 0.14 gets released, in any case. Thanks though!

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Post Wednesday, 26th March 2014, 18:03

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

This has come up at some IRDC (international roguelike development conference -- think of ten to twenty nerds in one room). In short, the idea to give visual feedback constitutes good design. As soon as players value efficiency more than anything else (because they play so often or for so long), this kind of feedback takes a backseat to playing speed. This does not invalidate the point about feedback -- ideally, there also was aural feedback.

So I definitely support this idea. I also don't think that all the options which go for efficiency should be on for default, but that's a separate case. (I believe that all option defaults should be as newbie friendly as possible -- experienced players know how to change options, newbies don't.)

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Post Wednesday, 26th March 2014, 19:04

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

Thanks, guys. I'm glad that despite a fact, that community became a bit... different, over the years, developers still working on this game and making it better. And more importantly - patiently listen to what players propose, and give us your feedback =)

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Post Monday, 31st March 2014, 21:49

Re: Tile build: Melee animation

Based on the usability tests of 2010 (watching first-time players play offline tiles), visual feedback for melee attacks wouldn't hurt to get a grip how the game works. They should actually be on by default so that they help those who can use the help, like dpeg says we can expect the experienced users to fiddle with the options but the new ones are at the mercy of the defaults. I agree that the animations should be interruptible. Not sure if there's a win-win solution. The current animations (both in console and tiles) are far from ideal.

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