Permamark species?


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Saturday, 15th March 2014, 11:00

Permamark species?

So, this might be crazy, but I've been thinking about whether a species with permanent mark status would be viable. Here's what I'm thinking:

Permamark status
Regen 1
Can semi-controlled blink through (a)bility menu with exhaustion timer or hp cost or both
All aptitudes including HP/MP/experience +1.

Beyond that, any other species traits would depend on flavor:
* Wretched: This species is cursed. Reading ?remove curse disables the Mark status for a few hundred turns.
* Boastful: this species is absurdly confident and wants everything to come after them. Shout 1 intrensic, perhaps intrinsic reflection.
* Former holy: this species consists of holies that have somehow offended the gods in general, and those gods are spurring everything to hunt them down. rN+++, can still worship, but with half piety gain and altered flavor messages. Gods are once bitten, twice shy.
* Delicious: the species emits a delicious smell, but they have somehow survived the ravenous hordes til now. Might get some other scent/pheromone/inhalant-based powers that escape me just now.

So, what do you think: is this something that could grow into a species you might be excited to play, or is this being marked just too problematic, either because it's too crippling or because it warps crawl gameplay too much?
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1881

Joined: Saturday, 7th September 2013, 21:16

Location: Itajubá, MG, Brazil.

Post Saturday, 15th March 2014, 11:38

Re: Permamark species?

perma... mark....
oh god the pain and suffering! I would totally play this.
my posts are to be read in a mildly playful tone, with a deep, sexy voice.
User avatar

Blades Runner

Posts: 624

Joined: Saturday, 18th December 2010, 04:50

Post Saturday, 15th March 2014, 16:29

Re: Permamark species?

Lasty wrote:* Delicious: the species emits a delicious smell, but they have somehow survived the ravenous hordes til now. Might get some other scent/pheromone/inhalant-based powers that escape me just now.


Well if we're going to give this species permanent mark, we might as well go the extra mile and make the smell variant inflict siren-class mesmerize on every enemy in LOS.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Saturday, 15th March 2014, 16:38

Re: Permamark species?

Perhaps it could be playable with reduced LoS (Nighstalker 3) and intrinsic digging (Fo).

dck

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1653

Joined: Tuesday, 30th July 2013, 11:29

Post Saturday, 15th March 2014, 17:19

Re: Permamark species?

Mark doesn't do anything until things wake up and very few things are generated awake, so with those apts, human slots (also human stats I guess), regen 1 and scblink they wouldn't be particularly hard I think.
Interesting to play, well I don't know about that one; they would probably have pretty annoying exploration since one would want to secure certain types of routes and gain some type of terrain advantages asap upon entering a level.
Last edited by dck on Saturday, 15th March 2014, 17:30, edited 1 time in total.

For this message the author dck has received thanks:
duvessa
User avatar

Dis Charger

Posts: 2057

Joined: Wednesday, 7th August 2013, 08:25

Post Saturday, 15th March 2014, 17:30

Re: Permamark species?

I actually quite like the idea of an incredibly noisy species/god or one with Permamark. Be like playing with the Singing Sword and Shield of the Gong cursed to your hands at all times. I say this mostly because it's a very different dynamic than other races. With most races, you explore the floor and find enemies as you explore, if everything on the floor is woken up at once...you have all the enemies come to you, which is a completely different way to play.
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}

dck

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1653

Joined: Tuesday, 30th July 2013, 11:29

Post Saturday, 15th March 2014, 17:33

Re: Permamark species?

Well, yes it is but then every level is basically the same.
I mean I played three games with new gong and every level was basically the same, the difference with mark is that things wouldn't start charging your way the moment you enter the level and you could have more control over how much of the level you are exposed to, which is nice but still not very different.

For this message the author dck has received thanks: 2
duvessa, Lasty

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 508

Joined: Tuesday, 1st November 2011, 00:36

Post Saturday, 15th March 2014, 17:54

Re: Permamark species?

I'd be kindof interested in playing a perma-mark species, but it probably does warp the core of Crawl gameplay too much to ever make it into the actual game.
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5832

Joined: Thursday, 10th February 2011, 18:30

Post Saturday, 15th March 2014, 20:22

Re: Permamark species?

What about an enemy that can self-Mark to summon floor creatures (who do not have the player in sight) to the location (as opposed to the new Guardian Serpent ability); this would tactically close off escape avenues as enemies approach the monster.
"Be aware that a lot of people on this forum, such as mageykun and XuaXua, have a habit of making things up." - minmay a.k.a. duvessa
Did I make a lame complaint? Check for Bingo!
Totally gracious CSDC Season 2 Division 4 Champeen!
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1881

Joined: Saturday, 7th September 2013, 21:16

Location: Itajubá, MG, Brazil.

Post Saturday, 15th March 2014, 20:40

Re: Permamark species?

isnt it the same as making big noise?
my posts are to be read in a mildly playful tone, with a deep, sexy voice.
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 762

Joined: Thursday, 25th April 2013, 02:43

Post Saturday, 15th March 2014, 21:29

Re: Permamark species?

dck wrote:Well, yes it is but then every level is basically the same.
I mean I played three games with new gong and every level was basically the same, the difference with mark is that things wouldn't start charging your way the moment you enter the level and you could have more control over how much of the level you are exposed to, which is nice but still not very different.
I can't tell if this is true or not. I think an experimental branch should be made to test the permamark idea - Simply add a hack that treats the player as being marked all the time and challenge people to win a MiBe or some other easy combo. Then ask them if the game was interesting.

Even though a permamark species may not be interesting, I think the idea of Mark as a drawback is the interesting idea here.

Alternative proposal:

Magic Channel: this Sif Muna ability allows you to channel a great amount of magic power, but broadcasts your image to the world once it is over.

2 levels of spell enhancers, Ambrosia Level MP regen boost, and Ring of Wizardy spell success boost for 10 - 20 turns, followed by 20 - 40 turns being Marked (similar to anti-swiftness or post-berserk slowness).

Sif Muna doesn't have to be the one to grant this ability, could come from a ring/potion/artifact/other god/mutation etc.
On IRC my nick is reaverb. I play online under the name reaver, though.
User avatar

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1591

Joined: Saturday, 3rd August 2013, 18:59

Post Saturday, 15th March 2014, 21:50

Re: Permamark species?

I second the idea of mark as a draw back. It feels like an untapped resource, but maybe using it with trog worshippers would be more suitable than a species?

Trog seems so incredibly powerful to me, I feel like maybe giving him some kind of drawback using mark would be both interesting and flavorful. The god of war and bloodshed wants you to cleave through creature after creature and never stop until you are dead, so he marks you so all creatures will come to you rather than you coming to them.
To all new players: Ignore all strategy guides posted on the wiki, ask questions in the Advice forum, players with lots of posts normally have the best advice.

crawl.akrasiac.org:8080 <- take this link to play online or spectate.

Dis Charger

Posts: 2064

Joined: Wednesday, 9th January 2013, 19:44

Post Sunday, 16th March 2014, 20:13

Re: Permamark species?

I think permamark would be interesting to try out, but you should probably make them very stealthy, maybe even give prompts on noisy actions, because it can easily get them killed. Maybe give them a special ability to help them if they mess up, like dispersal or hd-based sleep/paralysis or something. Maybe a mass sleep ability with a permanent cost(hp or mp)/exp cost/draining.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4055

Joined: Tuesday, 10th January 2012, 19:49

Post Sunday, 16th March 2014, 20:50

Re: Permamark species?

My suspicion is that dck is correct and this would lead to not interesting gameplay.

For this message the author crate has received thanks: 2
duvessa, Lasty
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 162

Joined: Sunday, 29th May 2011, 10:18

Post Sunday, 16th March 2014, 21:50

Re: Permamark species?

Lasty wrote:Meatsprint


I think it would be boring.

For this message the author brendan has received thanks:
Lasty
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5832

Joined: Thursday, 10th February 2011, 18:30

Post Sunday, 16th March 2014, 22:30

Re: Permamark species?

Hirsch I wrote:isnt it the same as making big noise?


Shoutitis III
"Be aware that a lot of people on this forum, such as mageykun and XuaXua, have a habit of making things up." - minmay a.k.a. duvessa
Did I make a lame complaint? Check for Bingo!
Totally gracious CSDC Season 2 Division 4 Champeen!
User avatar

Dis Charger

Posts: 2057

Joined: Wednesday, 7th August 2013, 08:25

Post Sunday, 16th March 2014, 22:52

Re: Permamark species?

reaver wrote:Alternative proposal:

Magic Channel: this Sif Muna ability allows you to channel a great amount of magic power, but broadcasts your image to the world once it is over.

2 levels of spell enhancers, Ambrosia Level MP regen boost, and Ring of Wizardry spell success boost for 10 - 20 turns, followed by 20 - 40 turns being Marked (similar to anti-swiftness or post-berserk slowness).

Sif Muna doesn't have to be the one to grant this ability, could come from a ring/potion/artifact/other god/mutation etc.


20-40 turns is less than the average (w)ait. Besides, if you were doing that kind of channeling, you were probably either doing some really noisy conjurations (which would broadcast your position anyways) or summoning a LOT of minions, (some of which would protect you for more than 40 turns after). Come to think of it though...isn't Ashenzari wrath the same thing as a Permanent mark and a LOT of draining?
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}

Dis Charger

Posts: 2064

Joined: Wednesday, 9th January 2013, 19:44

Post Monday, 17th March 2014, 01:34

Re: Permamark species?

I just think that it might be interesting to try especially if you can balance that with other abilities. Permamark will force you to not make noise(otherwise I'm pretty sure you'll die fast), not just encourage it the way the game does it, which might me an interesting challenge and a new experience. There is a possibility it won't work well, though.

Also, I think that a lot of noise and permamark are very different, and may just look similar. 1) Noise wakes up monsters - mark doesn't. 2) Mark accurately gives out your location - noise just attracts monsters to where it was produced. See, they are very different. As for just noisy species, I don't find that very interesting.
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1881

Joined: Saturday, 7th September 2013, 21:16

Location: Itajubá, MG, Brazil.

Post Monday, 17th March 2014, 03:37

Re: Permamark species?

XuaXua wrote:
Hirsch I wrote:isnt it the same as making big noise?


Shoutitis III

I was thinking something more like Gong.
my posts are to be read in a mildly playful tone, with a deep, sexy voice.

dck

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1653

Joined: Tuesday, 30th July 2013, 11:29

Post Monday, 17th March 2014, 07:27

Re: Permamark species?

In practice sufficiently loud noise is indistinguishable from mark other than in the ways of escaping the people it attracts (this matters of course but if half of the mechanic is just dudes charging at you then it's not very interesting) and in how it affects your exploration. That's actually the bit that worries me most since I think hitting o as the permamark species would be almost always a very bad idea (until your dude reaches the point he doesn't care how many things he has to kill, which again given apts and racial stuff suggested wouldn't be very long) and exploring the dungeon manually is painful and terrible.

Return to Game Design Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 149 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.