Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable


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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 19:27

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

Leafsnail wrote:I can't tell if you're being willfully dense or just ignorant, but "mermaid" doesn't just highlight their gender. It links them to the mythology of mermaids, creatures generally regarded as ill omens who sink ships. "Merfolk Mesmerizer" by contrast is just clunky and has no real basis in anything.


So what you're saying is that mermaids should curse you will bad luck and capsize your ship in Crawl? Also, merfolk mesmerizer and every other version of this wording that has been chosen is so clunky, but every other professional title in crawl is fine? Really, what you're saying is that only mermaid will do.

Of course, that wouldn't be true if mermaids weren't mythologically associated with bad luck and ship sinking, but were instead associated with communist utopias (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mermaid#One_Thousand_and_One_Nights), or sometimes curing human diseases or marrying singers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mermaid#British_Isles), or being undead (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mermaid#Eastern_Europe), or venerated water spirits (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mermaid#Africa), or spirits representing wealth and beauty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mermaid#Other).

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 19:28

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

I usually just think of mermaids as redhead hoarders that make bad deals with OctopodeEnchanters
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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 19:33

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

The fact that mermaids are associated with ships sinking provides a link to sirens and memorization. Heck, the wikipedia page which you just linked says so too. It also contains many, many mentions of mermaids as an omen of disaster, and you selectively quoting a few counterexamples doesn't change that.

e: removed swipe at Lasty.
Last edited by Leafsnail on Friday, 7th March 2014, 20:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 19:36

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

Wow, it was a busy night (in my part of the world)! To address major themes:

  • Yes, this is a serious proposal, because gender norms are a topic worth thinking about. But I'll admit I was hamming up the feminist philosophy a bit. Crawl is a game, we are all here to have fun. I wanted to start a discussion, and it seems to have worked.
  • I agree that merging mermaids with merfolk, as I initially suggested, is less transparent from a gameplay perspective. Renaming mermaids to "merfolk mesmerizers" or "merfolk singers" (bards? balladeers? troubadours?) and making the mer* tiles a little more gender-neutral seems like the best idea.
  • I'm OK with uniques or even species (i.e. sirens) having their gender or physical attributes called out when it contributes meaningfully to flavor and when the game as a whole is not systematically biased to target a particular gender. Lasty has done a great job pointing out the difference between lazy, biased flavor and creative, individualized flavor. It's one thing to have particular, well-described characters who happen to be both female and attractive, or female and unattractive, or male and attractive/unattractive, or just kinda plain-looking, or gender-fluid, or entirely sexless; it's quite another to have a bunch of mostly female characters who are described as simply "beautiful" or "ugly".
  • I'm also OK with uniques' descriptions insulting them in all sorts of ridiculous ways. Their main purpose in the game is to terrorize players, we should be able to have a spiteful laugh at their expense. I don't care if the insults are "off-color" or "not PC" -- again, as long as they're not systematically targeting any particular group. My main concern is that flavor text should be creative. Let's go ahead and call Agnes a shriveled old crone who, despite her small stature, is surprisingly spry for her age. Let's call Erica a tall, fiery-tempered bitch whose looks are as sharp and hot as her blade. Let's call Wiglaf an overweight doofus with a goofy hat, and let's call Norris a panty-wetting hunk of spray-tanned machismo.
  • The idea that "political correctness" -- what I'd rather call "social awareness" -- is a lower priority than flavor or gameplay is part of a larger issue of (male/white/cis/hetero) privilege among video game designers generally. Feminist Frequency has a great video series called "Tropes Vs. Women In Video Games" that breaks down some of the common ways this manifests with respect to gender (first episode:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q). You can pretend that Crawl exists separately from the culture in which we live, but that simply isn't true. Social issues do impact the design decisions Crawl devs make, whether they are aware of it or not. The best way forward, in my opinion, is not to try to make Crawl "PC" -- it's to try to be aware of the ways in which one's own privilege influences design decisions, and take responsibility for making a better, more inclusive game whenever possible.
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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 19:38

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

TeshiAlair wrote:I usually just think of mermaids as redhead hoarders that make bad deals with OctopodeEnchanters


You have won the thread!
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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 19:43

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

moocowmoocow wrote:This leads us to a more serious problem: the discriminatory abundance of phallic shaped weapons. Name me one soft, curvy shaped weapon. Am I supposed to believe that women are not as capable of killing as men? What kind of message does this send to impressionable children? I get it, it's a man's world *sigh*, but we're not living in the stone age any more last time I checked.


Are we supposed to believe that "soft" and "curvy" are inherently feminine attributes? ;)
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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 19:43

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

Leafsnail, I can't tell if you're being willfully dense or genuinely cannot make a simple logical inference, but the fact that mermaids and sirens are different monsters and have different mythology and that I expressly said I didn't care to change sirens seems to completely escape you.

I also can't tell if you're only interested in seeing things that support your existing conclusions, but surely you can see that each culture has their own mythology about mermaids and merfolk, some of which involves ill omens, some of which involves drowning, and much of which involves neither. The fact that you see every counterexample as "obscure" makes me think that you are only interested in your own culture and your own experience.

Overall I can't tell if you have any interest in genuine participation in this discussion or just want to help derail it, given that you haven't given any reasons to support your apparent point that there is only one conceivable name to give a merfolk monster that mesmerizes the player.

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 19:48

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

Sar wrote:gender binarism ugh

what about trans* merpersons


You may be joking, but I think this is a pretty good point. Crawl could use a little trans flavor (I always think of Mara as something like trans or gender-fluid, and then I'm confused by the male pronoun). It's also what I like about most of the monster species being gender-unspecified: the game doesn't default to male, and it doesn't enforce a binary either. When it comes to surviving the dungeon, an orc is an orc is an orc -- regardless of what's under its loincloth.
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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 19:49

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

I would suggest assuming that other arguing parties are sincere and instead of attacking them for being unwilling or unable to do something, try to make your own points more clearly.

This applies to more than one person involved!

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 19:54

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

As much as this thread has good intentions with regards to how we view gender, and how gender is reflected in Crawl, the Game Design Discussion forum is a terrible place to have this conversation on these terms. Other discussions -- of mundane and seemingly uncontroversial topics -- sometimes explode into multiple pages of people trying to have serious discussion and people trying to get a rise out of each other. Conversation becomes circular because nobody is going to change anyone else's opinions here. This thread is quickly headed in that direction.

Concise proposals are better: combine Mermaids and Sirens into just Sirens, include a weaker mesmerizing creature or unique somewhere before shoals to teach the concept.

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 19:55

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

n1000 wrote:I would suggest assuming that other arguing parties are sincere and instead of attacking them for being unwilling or unable to do something, try to make your own points more clearly.

This applies to more than one person involved!


You're right, n1000, and I'm sorry. I got overheated on this issue, in part because I was surprised by the depth of antagonism to what seemed to me to be an uncontroversial change -- a change that as someone who either is or cares about a female-bodied person, I have a personal investment in. As a result, I probably made things more divisive and overall worse. Tedric's post showed me a much better way to engage with this discussion, and I'll try to learn from that.

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 20:06

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

tedric wrote:Feminist Frequency has a great video series called "Tropes Vs. Women In Video Games" that breaks down some of the common ways this manifests with respect to gender (first episode:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q).

For future reference, citing Anita Sarkeesian is a great way to instantly invalidate whatever argument you're making.
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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 20:24

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

roctavian wrote:Conversation becomes circular because nobody is going to change anyone else's opinions here. This thread is quickly headed in that direction.


This thread was headed in that direction as soon as tedric decided to start it off by "hamming up the feminist philosophy a bit." As someone broadly sympathetic to tedric's POV here, every step of this discussion has been extremely disappointing.

Niel made the necessary changes to merfolk flavor. If "mermaid" is really problematic (I'm skeptical), rename them sirens (still gendered but with much better grounding in mythology) and create a professional class for the more dangerous version. Otherwise, I think it'd be swell if we could go back to pretending that Crawl is apolitical, as "open source" evidently does not provide the capacity for open discussion of serious issues.

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 20:33

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

RBrandon wrote:The entire purpose for this thread is moot since this "alluring femininity" actually has nothing to do with mesmerization, "the mermaid chants a haunting song." That this is a powerful magical attack is made more apparent by the fact that you literally cannot move away from the mesmerization source, which would presumably be untrue of sexuality with all but the least robust of self-control. Especially when the source of this mesmerization proceeds to try to kill you.

...

Finally, Crawl is set in an entirely different, fictional universe. These cultures represented would have their own ideas on gender roles and the like. Applying our own values to them is silly.


Fictional universes do not have reality independent from human experience. Any fictional world we create is a product of our own interests, perceptions, values, assumptions, and biases. Telling us NOT to apply our values to fiction is silly; there is literally no way to experience a work of fiction without it intersecting with our own values.

For a creator, the fact that your world is fictional does not give you a free pass to perpetuate harmful stereotypes, whether unthinkingly or intentionally. When you create, you make choices: you can choose to make a sexist, racist, homophobic world in which people treat those ideologies as normal and acceptable; you can choose to make a world in which people are aware of inequality and injustice and make the conscious decision to fight against it; or you can choose to make a world where the issues that plague humanity today have been resolved, and people have new and different causes to fight for. No matter what you choose, you can't expect your audience to uncritically accept that "this is just the way things are here." You need to give them good reason to think that the state of affairs you describe is a natural consequence of the values, attitudes and behaviors of the world's fictional inhabitants. That's what world-building is all about. And the way you justify your fictional world -- and whether you present those justifications as sympathetic or antagonistic to the characters the audience is meant to care about -- says a lot about the values, attitudes and behaviors you display in the real world.

All this is to say that the flavor text defining mermaids' mesmerizing power is just one part of the way Crawl presents mer-people, and the overall presentation is rooted in sexualization of femininity. The mermaid is the only humanoid monster species to have its gender explicitly stated. Its tile is scantily clad in a bikini top and loincloth. Note that vanilla merfolk (which default to male in the tile set) are at least as naked, and presumably just as capable of singing -- but they don't have the same power over the player. The flavor text about their song is basically whitewash; someone, at some point in Crawl's development, decided that to be mesmerizing is to be feminine is to be sexualized.

A lot of people have brought up mythology in this thread: another kind of fiction, just as much a product of vaules/assumptions/biases/etc. It's true that the mythology of sirens is very similar to some versions of the mermaid myth. But as some folks have pointed out, fish-human creatures take on a wide variety of role in mythologies from around the world; sirens are pretty specific to Greek mythology (and they're really more of a bird-human hybrid, but that's beside the point). Crawl's inclusion of sirens seems to be an intentional reference to the creature of Greek myth. The Greeks thought of sirens as female, and as I've said I'm OK with Crawl's sirens being female too on that basis; but we should recognize that it's one of many examples throughout history in which female sexuality is portrayed as dangerous (and therefore must be controlled by men), which is a problematic thing to perpetuate. But since mer-person myths give us such a broader range of attributes to draw from, there's no solid mythological justification for why any of them are capable of mesmerizing -- much less why mer-women are capable but mer-men are not.

And even if there were such justification, there would still be nothing forcing the devs to include it in Crawl. They have a choice in how to build and justify this portion of the Crawl world, and we -- as a section of the Crawl player community, the audience -- have every right to apply our values and to question whether that choice is the right one.
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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 20:35

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

Lasty wrote:a change that as someone who either is or cares about a female-bodied person, I have a personal investment in.


This.
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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 20:40

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

Well I don't particularly am a female-bodied person (or indeed care about any such person who is in any way exposed to crawl) and thus have no personal investment on the matter. I do care about the clarity of this video game I like to play though. I think it's a pretty good video game and the fact most things in it are not necessarily overcomplicated and it uses very basic mythological knowledge to introduce what monsters do was an important part of helping me learn to play it when I started. When I first started playing this video game, that is.
So since I like this video game and I think other people would enjoy it (the video game), I don't like to see its clarity thrown to the wind for no good reason -because then those people who want to try it have a worse time and might decide to give up on it, thus missing out on a video game they could've probably enjoyed.

Sure that (ignoring the flavor crime) making "mermaids" into "transmollusc merperson hypnotists" would be a simple and small change. And you can say "just one more weird monster won't make anyone quit", but the fact is someone will have it be the last straw. New players are confronted with a nowadays titanic amount of important things they have to learn in and I believe that clarity is a small but important factor that should be taken into account when modifying the game (that is adding new monsters, weapons, unrands and races, as well as tweaking existing ones).
True some changes lately have made the overall clarity go down, which is sad, but there have also been more recent changes that strive to remove the more useless parts of some mechanics that basically just stopped them from being decently transparent and distracted the unspoiled player from the important parts of said mechanics.

What I mean by this is, it's a tragedy that clarity and less importantly flavor have to suffer and that the video game has to be less fun because of assumptions some people project upon it.

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 20:42

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

I wish every person who wrote many paragraphs about feminism through video games would also include how many hours they've spent volunteering for women's organizations and how much money they've donated to women's charities. Improving the portrayal of women in media (especially media as niche as crawl) is at the bottom of a long list of awful injustices that women face and it'd behoove you to spend your effort elsewhere if you care about it more than you care about appearing progressive in video game discussion rooms. Enough with the slacktivism.

I am happy with the merfolk change, better to make that explicit. Personally I don't consider tiles canon, as far as I'm concerned I'm fighting anthropomorphic 'm's.
Last edited by johlstei on Friday, 7th March 2014, 20:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 20:47

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

I apologise for making my last post was overly hostile, but I'm really struggling to see where Lasty's argument is coming from. Yes, there are different interpretations of mermaids, just as there are different interpretations of all mythological creatures. Why does that mean we can't use one of the most common and well-understood interpretations of them? I don't really accept that mermaids (in this form) symbolize the danger of female sexuality either, they're more about the dangers of the sea (which is appropriate for Shoals) and perhaps in particular the danger of sailors losing their minds on long voyages.

"Mesmerizer" seems clunky to me because it just doesn't sound like a profession at all. It's just stating a single action they can perform. "Hypnotist" seems bad too because that immediately says to me "they can make you fall asleep". "Singer" or "bard" implies to me that they'll boost their allies, although I guess it just about works.

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 20:48

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

johlstei wrote:I wish every person who wrote many paragraphs about feminism through video games would also include how many hours they've spent volunteering for women's organizations and how much money they've donated to women's charities. Improving the portrayal of women in media (especially media as niche as crawl) is at the bottom of a long list of awful injustices that women face and it'd behoove you to spend your effort elsewhere if you care about it more than you care about appearing progressive in video game discussion rooms. Enough with the slacktivism.


Also this. (Though I hope you'd agree that posting here and supporting real-life causes are not mutually exclusive.)
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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 20:55

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

tedric wrote:
johlstei wrote:I wish every person who wrote many paragraphs about feminism through video games would also include how many hours they've spent volunteering for women's organizations and how much money they've donated to women's charities. Improving the portrayal of women in media (especially media as niche as crawl) is at the bottom of a long list of awful injustices that women face and it'd behoove you to spend your effort elsewhere if you care about it more than you care about appearing progressive in video game discussion rooms. Enough with the slacktivism.


Also this. (Though I hope you'd agree that posting here and supporting real-life causes are not mutually exclusive.)

Of course not. I just suspect that people who were familiar with the true state of things wouldn't bother with the former, and are rather tired of feminist spaces being waylaid into talking about video games, as I know I am. I'm not saying not to improve things in crawl, just not to focus one's effort on doing so when they have literally any other choice.

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 20:58

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

@dck, to the extent that mermaids enhance players' experiences of crawl, it's because they're an effectively-communicated monster with interesting traits. To you, this is true of mermaids; I, conversely, was very surprised when I found that they were fundamentally a different monster from generic merfolk, and more surprised (and a little disappointed) when they turned out to mesmerize. For every person who is turned off playing Crawl solely because mermaids are named merfolk hypnotists, another person is turned off playing crawl because merfolk hypnotists are named mermaids. I have to imagine that somehow there's some other name you might accept for a weak Shoals monster that mesmerizes that might also work for me and others who had the same experience I did.

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 21:11

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

Lasty wrote:@dck, to the extent that mermaids enhance players' experiences of crawl, it's because they're an effectively-communicated monster with interesting traits. To you, this is true of mermaids; I, conversely, was very surprised when I found that they were fundamentally a different monster from generic merfolk, and more surprised (and a little disappointed) when they turned out to mesmerize. For every person who is turned off playing Crawl solely because mermaids are named merfolk hypnotists, another person is turned off playing crawl because merfolk hypnotists are named mermaids. I have to imagine that somehow there's some other name you might accept for a weak Shoals monster that mesmerizes that might also work for me and others who had the same experience I did.

That's because of your assumption that Mermaids are female Merfolk, which is not the case. The difference has been made more explicit in the recent commit to avoid the misconception in future.

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 21:14

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

Leafsnail wrote:I apologise for making my last post was overly hostile, but I'm really struggling to see where Lasty's argument is coming from. Yes, there are different interpretations of mermaids, just as there are different interpretations of all mythological creatures. Why does that mean we can't use one of the most common and well-understood interpretations of them?

My point was to question whether this is the most common and well-understood interpretation of mermaids. It certainly isn't mine, and it looks like even in western cultures overall, it's only one of several themes of what mermaids might represent.

Leafsnail wrote:I don't really accept that mermaids (in this form) symbolize the danger of female sexuality either, they're more about the dangers of the sea (which is appropriate for Shoals) and perhaps in particular the danger of sailors losing their minds on long voyages.

If the element of female sexuality isn't important, then surely they needn't be maids, right? Presumably either gender could equally represent the dangerous allures of the sea and ocean madness.

Leafsnail wrote:"Mesmerizer" seems clunky to me because it just doesn't sound like a profession at all. It's just stating a single action they can perform. "Hypnotist" seems bad too because that immediately says to me "they can make you fall asleep". "Singer" or "bard" implies to me that they'll boost their allies, although I guess it just about works.


I can accept that mesmerizer is the wrong name. Let me pitch a few more:
* Mesmerist
* Drowner (playing up the interaction between mesmerism and water)
* Hunter (playing up the way that the song draws in the prey, e.g. you)
* Trapper (ditto)
* Intoner (singing theme, but less "ally buffing" implication)
* Crooner (ditto, with a seductive theme)

Alternately, I'd be happy to take the suggestion to make mermaids into sirens, and sirens into professional sirens of some sort (greater siren?).

Here's another way of looking at the problem I have with keeping them as mermaids:
* The only merfolk who can mesmerize are mermaids.
* Mermaids are female merfolk.
* Player merfolk can't mesmerize.
* Thus, player merfolk aren't mermaids.
* Thus, the player is male.

There are ways to get around that (change mermaid description to make it clear that only these specific mermaids get mesmerize).

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 21:17

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

Lasty wrote:Here's another way of looking at the problem I have with keeping them as mermaids:
* The only merfolk who can mesmerize are mermaids.
* Mermaids are female merfolk.
* Player merfolk can't mesmerize.
* Thus, player merfolk aren't mermaids.
* Thus, the player is male.

There are ways to get around that (change mermaid description to make it clear that only these specific mermaids get mesmerize).

Again: Mermaids are not actually Merfolk.

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 21:20

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

Lasty wrote:Mermaids are female merfolk.

That has never been the case and it was only vaguely possible to infer so from the desc of enemy mf.
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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 21:22

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

If mistaking Mermaids for female merfolk is really a problem, the easy solution would be to edit their descriptions to explicitly mention that they're a separate but related species.

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 21:23

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

Viashino_wizard wrote:That's because of your assumption that Mermaids are female Merfolk, which is not the case. The difference has been made more explicit in the recent commit to avoid the misconception in future.


A recent patch did change how they're related for purposes of cannibalism and pacification, but only the best-informed players will discover that merfolk and mermaids are totally distinct species, the latter of which is a female-only species (apparently?). In the perception of the average player they will remain seemingly related, especially since their tiles are very similar and they appear together.
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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 21:26

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

Lasty wrote:
Viashino_wizard wrote:That's because of your assumption that Mermaids are female Merfolk, which is not the case. The difference has been made more explicit in the recent commit to avoid the misconception in future.


A recent patch did change how they're related for purposes of cannibalism and pacification, but only the best-informed players will discover that merfolk and mermaids are totally distinct species, the latter of which is a female-only species (apparently?). In the perception of the average player they will remain seemingly related, especially since their tiles are very similar and they appear together.

As I said, if this is really causing an issue of clarity, Mermaids/Sirens can simply have their descriptions edited. Possibly their tiles could be adjusted to make them look more distinct from merfolk as well.

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 21:28

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

I know some people run script so their crawl text comes through in pirate speak. Can someone not just make a script for euphemism and political correctness and leave the game code alone?

Should be possible in lua: man = human, maid = domestic servant, woman = "female bodied person". To be safe, beautiful = free of obvious physical defect.

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 21:28

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

Viashino_wizard wrote:As I said, if this is really causing an issue of clarity, Mermaids/Sirens can simply have their descriptions edited. Possibly their tiles could be adjusted to make them look more distinct from merfolk as well.


Or perhaps the monster's name could be changed.

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 21:29

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

Lasty wrote:
damiac wrote:When proposing a change, the onus is on you to offer a good reason to make a change, not on everyone else to come up with reasons not to.


Read the thread before posting. Reasons were already given. Some gave responses against making the change but w/o reasons.

damiac wrote:Also, all merfolk are male? Where does the game say that?

It doesn't, as of two and a half hours ago.
http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9730105c08dd


You mean this:-A hybrid with the torso of a man and the tail of a fish, a merfolk dwells both-in water and on land, and fiercely defends its domain.

The old description. Gender neutral (Notice that it defends its terrain, not his terrain). Yes, it says "The torso of a man" but I assumed here that was like "mankind" or "man's best friend". You know, as in human. It doesn't bother me to see that changed to "human", though. It could also be implied from the old description that both female and male merfolk had the torso of a male human, which makes some sense, considering that merfolk don't seem to be mammals, and therefore shouldn't have the torso of a female human. But then I would have to assume that merfolk do not have nipples.

Changing "mermaid" to "mermaid drowner" or whatever would imply that there is an easier, base type of mermaid going by the way all the other "professional" humanoids work.

But lets solve the real question here: Do merfolk have nipples?

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 21:30

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

moomoocow wrote:beautiful = free of obvious physical defect

That's ableist.

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 21:36

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

Viashino_wizard wrote:Again: Mermaids are not actually Merfolk.


Every time I look at this thread it has reached a new level of crazy bananas.

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 21:38

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

Oks, to be honest the request to make a gender neutral mermaid strikes me as to touchy. Mermaids were traditionally females and I don't think that any of the devs that implemented the monster were sexist or gender biased in any way nor do I think it is wrong to assign a gender to a monster type when flavour suits it.

That being said, this seems to be a big deal for some players and the requested change is mostly in flavour easy to implement. We could just rename the mermaid to siren and the siren to adept siren, change the tile to make it gender ambiguous and modify the description.

  Code:
Siren
A young and charming merfolk that is capable of casting a powerful spell over their audience.

Adept siren
A charming merfolk that has mastered powerfull magic known only to its kind, its are spells almost irresistible.


Just by Trog's sake, don't rename the mermaid to merfolk mesmerizer... it is very dull.
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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 21:40

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

TeshiAlair wrote:
Viashino_wizard wrote:Again: Mermaids are not actually Merfolk.


Every time I look at this thread it has reached a new level of crazy bananas.

Xom I love this game

The game literally considers Mermaids a separate species from Merfolk for anything that cares about genus.

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 21:40

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

This is like watching reddit collide with tumblr

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 21:49

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

tedric wrote:
RBrandon wrote:The entire purpose for this thread is moot since this "alluring femininity" actually has nothing to do with mesmerization, "the mermaid chants a haunting song." That this is a powerful magical attack is made more apparent by the fact that you literally cannot move away from the mesmerization source, which would presumably be untrue of sexuality with all but the least robust of self-control. Especially when the source of this mesmerization proceeds to try to kill you.

...

Finally, Crawl is set in an entirely different, fictional universe. These cultures represented would have their own ideas on gender roles and the like. Applying our own values to them is silly.


Fictional universes do not have reality independent from human experience. Any fictional world we create is a product of our own interests, perceptions, values, assumptions, and biases. Telling us NOT to apply our values to fiction is silly; there is literally no way to experience a work of fiction without it intersecting with our own values.

Explain how you can still understand century-old mythological worlds then, if it's so impossible to dictate a world that does not follow every single aspect of our current one. (Although arguably this proposal is about a future ideal!)

For a creator, the fact that your world is fictional does not give you a free pass to perpetuate harmful stereotypes, whether unthinkingly or intentionally. When you create, you make choices: you can choose to make a sexist, racist, homophobic world in which people treat those ideologies as normal and acceptable; you can choose to make a world in which people are aware of inequality and injustice and make the conscious decision to fight against it; or you can choose to make a world where the issues that plague humanity today have been resolved, and people have new and different causes to fight for. No matter what you choose, you can't expect your audience to uncritically accept that "this is just the way things are here." You need to give them good reason to think that the state of affairs you describe is a natural consequence of the values, attitudes and behaviors of the world's fictional inhabitants. That's what world-building is all about. And the way you justify your fictional world -- and whether you present those justifications as sympathetic or antagonistic to the characters the audience is meant to care about -- says a lot about the values, attitudes and behaviors you display in the real world.

Except all these "harmful ideologies" as they are known today can be used to simulate a world of yesterday, if I was to write a fictional story about a black slave in the 18th century - would you expect his owners to refer to him as "slave" because uttering "nigger" today is considered harmful, simply because I'm writing this in 1850+164? That's an awful limitation that I've never heard of.
You're also putting way too high standards for "world-building" for a game that basically boils down to "The world is ending! It's up to you to retrieve The Orb of Zot and save the world! By the way, kill everything!".

All this is to say that the flavor text defining mermaids' mesmerizing power is just one part of the way Crawl presents mer-people, and the overall presentation is rooted in sexualization of femininity. The mermaid is the only humanoid monster species to have its gender explicitly stated. Its tile is scantily clad in a bikini top and loincloth. Note that vanilla merfolk (which default to male in the tile set) are at least as naked, and presumably just as capable of singing -- but they don't have the same power over the player. The flavor text about their song is basically whitewash; someone, at some point in Crawl's development, decided that to be mesmerizing is to be feminine is to be sexualized.

Jory will gladly mesmerize you into his crystal spear grasp.

But since mer-person myths give us such a broader range of attributes to draw from, there's no solid mythological justification for why any of them are capable of mesmerizing -- much less why mer-women are capable but mer-men are not.

There's this one little fairy tale that says something funny about a certain mermaid;
  Code:
"The Little Mermaid, longing for the prince and an eternal soul, eventually visits the Sea Witch, who sells her a potion that gives her legs in exchange for her tongue (as the Little Mermaid has the most enchanting and beautiful voice in the world)."


i can't even continue my post now just make it stop
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

Did you know that I like ruining crawl every now and then? Go check it out.

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 22:32

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

Bloax wrote:Explain how you can still understand century-old mythological worlds then, if it's so impossible to dictate a world that does not follow every single aspect of our current one.


That's...not even close to what I said. Of course we can understand them, and we can imagine worlds very different from our own. But what any fiction means to you is conditioned by the world you live in, the way you think, etc. Ancient Greek myths almost certainly meant something different to the ancient Greeks than they do to you and me.

Bloax wrote:Except all these "harmful ideologies" as they are known today can be used to simulate a world of yesterday, if I was to write a fictional story about a black slave in the 18th century - would you expect his owners to refer to him as "slave" because uttering "nigger" today is considered harmful, simply because I'm writing this in 1850+164? That's an awful limitation that I've never heard of.


Yes, you can recreate the world of yesterday -- but you do it through the lens of today. If tomorrow you published a novel in which slave owners were glorified, people would call you a racist. Compare the difference between depictions of slavery in Uncle Tom's Cabin or Huck Finn to a book like Beloved; compare a film like Birth Of A Nation to 12 Years A Slave. All the hateful language and horrible injustice is there, but the values by which it's interpreted and presented are very different.

Bloax wrote:There's this one little fairy tale that says something funny about a certain mermaid;
  Code:
"The Little Mermaid, longing for the prince and an eternal soul, eventually visits the Sea Witch, who sells her a potion that gives her legs in exchange for her tongue (as the Little Mermaid has the most enchanting and beautiful voice in the world)."


Yes, one little fairy tale from the European tradition.

Bloax wrote:i can't even continue my post now just make it stop


I'm sorry this thread makes you apoplectic. You really don't have to read it.
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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 22:36

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

We do have non unique monsters with sex in crawl and that is perfectly fine. We could certainly make a "queen ant" a "royal ant" but that would only confuse players. In some situations the sex of a monster helps a player to recognize the monster, that is the case of merfolk/mermaid.

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 22:53

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

next up we should tackle the gender gap in hell and pandemonium nobility

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 22:54

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

Actually the idea that mermaids are not a kind of merfolk is pretty silly, I assumed mermaid was a profession. The name should be changed if they aren't meant to be the same species.

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 23:12

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

outside inquiry for your enjoyment:
  Code:
<jino> I still haven't seen anyone say
<jino> A. a verifiable claim of which party gets hurt by a fucking mermaid in a fucking tile-based game based around mythology
<jino> B. a verifiable claim of which party benefits explicitly from that
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

Did you know that I like ruining crawl every now and then? Go check it out.

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 23:13

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

can't have fucking mermaids in crawl, this is supposed to be family friendly!

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 23:25

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

but just think of the explicit benefits to parties!

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Post Friday, 7th March 2014, 23:48

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

dck wrote:Of course I don't think a perceived issue such as this warrants at all brutally butchering the flavor of shoals and severely impairing the clarity of the monsters it contains, which is something that has already seen enough damage lately.
What are you referring to?
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Post Saturday, 8th March 2014, 03:19

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

dpeg wrote:
dck wrote:Of course I don't think a perceived issue such as this warrants at all brutally butchering the flavor of shoals and severely impairing the clarity of the monsters it contains, which is something that has already seen enough damage lately.
What are you referring to?
I'm guessing satyrs/fauns/new sirens.
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Post Saturday, 8th March 2014, 03:26

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

Probably water elementals and wind drakes, too.

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Post Saturday, 8th March 2014, 03:35

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

Um, tedric, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn and Uncle Tom's Cabin are both classic anti-slavery books (albeit in very different ways).

For me the major takeaway here is that a lot of uniques could use more fleshing out in terms of their back story and flavor. I think the "ugly hag" stuff mainly comes from dashed off flavor descriptions—it is a standard role playing trope. Of course those tropes sometimes reflect fiction that relies on stereotypes (about, e.g., physical beauty correlating with moral virtue); whether one finds this particularly offensive or not, it is lazier writing than Crawl deserves. Gameplay trumps flavor, but whatever flavor Crawl does have should be good flavor.

The merfolk thing doesn't really bother me, but then again I like to take a positivist view of Crawl's flavor—I would just assume that the merfolk that are being depicted in this fictional world or whatever *are* actually a society with very rigidly defined gender roles. I mean these are different *species* (not "races" as they are sometimes referred to!) so who knows what forms of sexual (or asexual?) reproduction are happening.

Even in the real world, within the species homo sapiens, various societies at various points in times had myriad different arrangements with regard to gender roles, with highly variable levels of severity, unfairness, and rigidity. Some societies even had rigidly defined gender roles and yet weren't necessarily, ipso facto, sexist against women. (A number of tribes had more or less discrete gender roles but, for instance, were also matrilineal and allowed women as much scope for influence and power as men.)

Also, depicting something doesn't necessarily entail supporting it, things aren't as simple as that.

Of course if there is actually some confusion being caused about what enemies do, that can be cleared up with a simple name change, that should be done.
Last edited by and into on Saturday, 8th March 2014, 03:49, edited 2 times in total.

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Post Saturday, 8th March 2014, 03:44

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

I have a question for lasty and those people who notice these gender things in games in general. yes i agree that women in chain mail bikinis are dumb and overtly sexist and should be done away with as they are sexual for sexuality's sake and add nothing to the game. but the creatures in crawl arnt sexual, just descriptive. i could care less about the description of any monster i fight, my thoughs are

"what does that one do?"
(mermaids help sort that out quick as i do read alot of popular mythology stuff)
"is it a threat?"
i find that out the hard way most of the time and the knowledge bot way the rest
and finally "can i kill it?"
that is based on my skills and equipment and my answer to question 2

but after all those i dont ask myself "why is this a woman and this one a man?" thats not a question that even enters my head. there is nothing here looking me in the face saying "Look at me, i have woman parts" so i dont understand why this is even a thing.

in the end this game is about murder, id like to understand why you care about sex when it comes to a game thats not about sex?

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Post Saturday, 8th March 2014, 03:52

Re: Proposal: Make monster mer* more gender-equitable

Edit: NVM, the post I was replying to seems to have been deleted. Leaving my reply's text here.

in popular culture, I think you'll find they are not as well defined as that (just as, you know 'woman + fish hybrid, typically beautiful'. Associations are divided between terrible and beneficial). The only reason I think 'mesmerizes' when I see mermaids in Crawl is basically because of experiences with Crawl itself. Now, if you say 'sirens'.. yeah, their whole thing is mesmerizing. In a real sense the presence of sirens promotes the idea that mermaids do something else, rather than what crawl actually implements : mermaids as a subset of sirens.

The part of the population that plays roguelikes is generally pretty geeky, but that doesn't mean they'll necessarily be well up on mythology specifically.

I think it is reasonable to assume the lowest-common-denominator level of knowledge for mythology in Crawl. Goblins are weedy ugly things, Ogres are overgrown violent idiots, kobolds are vicious doglike ugly things, etc.. You should assume Flanderization (the player's memory reducing creatures to one or two simple aspects)

Edit : Also, it's incredibly weird that mermaids != merfolk when checking for species. I just.. what. That level of difference in name doesn't at all imply a whole different species. It's more like the difference between saying 'X is latina/latino' and 'X is Mexican'
Last edited by savageorange on Saturday, 8th March 2014, 04:48, edited 2 times in total.

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