Renouncing Yred: Minions destroyed, not hostile


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Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 18th March 2014, 00:19

Renouncing Yred: Minions destroyed, not hostile

Minions should be destroyed rather than becoming hostile upon leaving Yred. You can kill minions one by one (force attack to turn hostile via ctrl+direction) just before aXing Yred, without any penalty except extreme tedium, and this is non-trivially optimal if you have lots of zombies all over the place. Perma-allies can just be abandoned on Lair 8 or something before renunciation, but even that is annoying as you need to make sure there is nothing you might want to retrieve from the level. Simply having Yred destroy all your minions makes a lot more sense in terms of DCSS's design goals, and is still a form of punishment.

I'm not sure if abandoning Kiku causes your animated friends to turn on you in Trunk, but if so the same treatment should be given there, for precisely the same reasons. Having Kiku automatically kill your minions is already punishment and eliminates receive corpse scumming without resorting to punishment by tedium.

The only case I can think of where the minions going against you might add some legitimate strategic consideration is in the rare case of conversion to Lugonu under duress in order to exit the Abyss. However I think abandoning a god without preparation or without full freedom of choice is drastic and interesting enough, the minions' turning against you is not needed based on those edge cases and certainly does not justify the added aggravation.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 18th March 2014, 00:40

Re: Renouncing Yred: Minions destroyed, not hostile

I think an easier solution would be to get penance for attacking undead allies (and excommunication if still attacking them while under penance).

Edit. Ok, you convinced me, my idea above is bad.
Last edited by Sandman25 on Tuesday, 18th March 2014, 01:24, edited 1 time in total.

Abyss Ambulator

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Post Tuesday, 18th March 2014, 00:41

Re: Renouncing Yred: Minions destroyed, not hostile

How about have the next X corpses you generate turn into hostile zombies/ghosts, where X is the total number of undead servants you've had
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Spider Stomper

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Post Tuesday, 18th March 2014, 00:46

Re: Renouncing Yred: Minions destroyed, not hostile

Note that this would destroy zombies and skeletons from necromancy spells also, but I suppose that makes sense and is fine. In any case, I heartily agree with the OP

I do not agree with Sandman because other gods that use allies already do this and it is in general one of the nicer things about zombies that you dont have to aim around them.

TelshiAlair: Do you really think it is a good idea to have to plow through an additional fire giant zombie because you animated an extra rat on D:1??

Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 18th March 2014, 01:18

Re: Renouncing Yred: Minions destroyed, not hostile

Yeah, Kiku already punishes casting Necromancy now, and you lose your ability to raise minions upon leaving Yred. Making Yred punish you for necromancy that you've chosen to train up while also worshiping him (or after worshiping him but before wrath ends) actually reduces his distinctiveness and steps on Kiku's toes.

Sandman25: Very occasionally you may legitimately want to cull your herd if, say, you've already gotten a few ghouls and a servitor but then Yred gives you a weaker minion; punishing that would be obnoxious. It doesn't actually remove the scummy behavior, just makes it *more* annoying. (You can always send your minions into certain doom against a few strong enemies.) Honestly one distinctive thing about the strategy behind Yred is that his wrath is relatively mild so if you want to ditch him late game before extended or something it is nice that you don't feel so "tied down" as compared to some other gods who are much harsher. Having his wrath be relatively mild but highly annoying actually detracts on multiple levels. Not that any further reasons are required, but it also strikes me as against theme. Necromancy involves disturbing the grave in order to make minions who are purely disposable tools, if you respected and honored the dead you wouldn't have awoken the bodies from their eternal slumber in the first place.

Abyss Ambulator

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Post Tuesday, 18th March 2014, 15:58

Re: Renouncing Yred: Minions destroyed, not hostile

RBrandon wrote:Note that this would destroy zombies and skeletons from necromancy spells also, but I suppose that makes sense and is fine. In any case, I heartily agree with the OP

I do not agree with Sandman because other gods that use allies already do this and it is in general one of the nicer things about zombies that you dont have to aim around them.

TelshiAlair: Do you really think it is a good idea to have to plow through an additional fire giant zombie because you animated an extra rat on D:1??


I mean, it is meant to be wrath. Guaranteeing a fight rather than being able to prevent it seems to be the point of this proposal.
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Spider Stomper

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Post Tuesday, 18th March 2014, 16:59

Re: Renouncing Yred: Minions destroyed, not hostile

TeshiAlair wrote:Guaranteeing a fight rather than being able to prevent it seems to be the point of this proposal.

and into wrote:Minions should be destroyed rather than becoming hostile upon leaving Yred.


what?

Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 18th March 2014, 17:11

Re: Renouncing Yred: Minions destroyed, not hostile

Well TeshiAlAir is right: The fights that can be (tediously) prevented should simply be removed. But I don't think your prior behavior should affect Wrath, at least not in such a subtle and not particularly meaningful way. Throwing a few more zombies at you isn't interesting because zombies aren't strong. So I'd say remove the tedious stuff altogether and make Yred spawn more, and more intense, undead enemies when his wrath hits. Profane Servitors and the like are no joke, unlike the vast majority of skeles/zombies.

Swamp Slogger

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Post Wednesday, 19th March 2014, 00:35

Re: Renouncing Yred: Minions destroyed, not hostile

and into wrote:Minions should be destroyed rather than becoming hostile upon leaving Yred. You can kill minions one by one (force attack to turn hostile via ctrl+direction) just before aXing Yred, without any penalty except extreme tedium, and this is non-trivially optimal if you have lots of zombies all over the place. Perma-allies can just be abandoned on Lair 8 or something before renunciation, but even that is annoying as you need to make sure there is nothing you might want to retrieve from the level. Simply having Yred destroy all your minions makes a lot more sense in terms of DCSS's design goals, and is still a form of punishment.

I'm not sure it is optimal to eliminate zombie/skeleton allies before renouncing Yred. Obviously minions (servitors, ghouls and the like) are best either stranded or killed, but having the Depths and Dungeon crawling with harmless slow-moving monsters makes the Orb run easier, not harder, in my experience.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 19th March 2014, 01:01

Re: Renouncing Yred: Minions destroyed, not hostile

Tenaya wrote:
and into wrote:Minions should be destroyed rather than becoming hostile upon leaving Yred. You can kill minions one by one (force attack to turn hostile via ctrl+direction) just before aXing Yred, without any penalty except extreme tedium, and this is non-trivially optimal if you have lots of zombies all over the place. Perma-allies can just be abandoned on Lair 8 or something before renunciation, but even that is annoying as you need to make sure there is nothing you might want to retrieve from the level. Simply having Yred destroy all your minions makes a lot more sense in terms of DCSS's design goals, and is still a form of punishment.

I'm not sure it is optimal to eliminate zombie/skeleton allies before renouncing Yred. Obviously minions (servitors, ghouls and the like) are best either stranded or killed, but having the Depths and Dungeon crawling with harmless slow-moving monsters makes the Orb run easier, not harder, in my experience.

Sounds like another reason to just destroy them upon abandonment!

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 19th March 2014, 16:49

Re: Renouncing Yred: Minions destroyed, not hostile

Or Yred could simply summon(recall) all minions he gifted you, and re-create any that have been destroyed (By you or by enemies).

I think that'd be a fairly thematic Yred wrath (Maybe not immediately upon leaving, but whenever he decides to punish you.) I kind of like it when god wrath uses the powers they grant you while worshipping them, personally.

It'd eliminate the tedium (or at least make it not particularly optimal), while retaining the nastiness (after all god wrath should be nasty)

I'm pro destroying any zombie/skeletons however, by the time you're abandoning him, those should be trivial to outrun or kill, and really do nothing other than take turns.
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Wednesday, 19th March 2014, 17:11

Re: Renouncing Yred: Minions destroyed, not hostile

Siegurt wrote:Or Yred could simply summon(recall) all minions he gifted you, and re-create any that have been destroyed (By you or by enemies).

I think that'd be a fairly thematic Yred wrath (Maybe not immediately upon leaving, but whenever he decides to punish you.) I kind of like it when god wrath uses the powers they grant you while worshipping them, personally.



Seems more complicated than it's worth. How is that different from sending new hostile servants at you, which is already part of Yred wrath? Destroying the old ones, and creating new ones as needed, is pretty much the same.

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