Are FeBes broken?


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Dungeon Dilettante

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Post Friday, 25th March 2011, 21:27

Are FeBes broken?

So it seems that the current crop of bots/macros has been taken as a sign that FeBes are broken; Felids are being nerfed, and there's even a call to ban FeBes outright (e.g. see https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1113). I'm not so sure, however, that there really is an issue, or, if there is, that it's with FeBes necessarily.

1) Berserkers are easy in the early game:
See the 2nd post of the forum thread - https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1022
Essentially Berserkers are pure melee - they don't have to worry about learning spells, they don't have to worry about diversifying.
All they do is fight, berserk and fight, trogs hand (to heal or get MR), BiA (if swarmed or facing a tough enemy) and fight.
Eat when you need to eat, sac the rest for piety.
It's a recommended class for new players because it is so simple.
The only reason I die when playing them is I forget what monsters are hard, or I forget to BiA rather then berserk.

2) Felids are easy in the early game:
They can't wear armour or use wands or weapons so there is less to use and juggle or even think about.
They are carnivores so can eat (most of) what they kill, so food isn't an issue, even if playing a food intensive class (like berserkers).
By the mid-game, where things like resistances become useful they can wear the jewellery they've found and even get additional lives.
I've seen people recommend Felids for new players because they are so simple as there's no worrying about armour or weapons.


As it stands there are very few decisions required for Felids or Berserkers, so very few decisions for Felid Berserkers. It just so happens that the decisions that are required are able to be made by a very basic decision making process:

If you're near an enemy do what you need to (BiA, Trog's hand, Berserk) to kill it, if you're hungry eat, if you're not hungry sac corpses, if you're not ready to berserk rest, if you're rested and sated go hunt a monster.

That simple decision making will get a FeBe to Lair8 without any real thought processes and, if you want to semi-automate it, you can basically make it to Lair8 (including clearing it and every levle on the way) in 6 minutes.
Once Lair is clear you can then clear Orc.
By the youv'e got rPoison and should be able to take on Snake (even Snake 5) and then Hive.
You should then be strong (or rather dextrous) enough to take on Vaults 1-7.

Which is most of the way through the mid-game without any real thought except what jewellry to buy/use and occasional potions.



The fact is, though, that some other classes also have a relatively simple decision making process (IE, for example, have a relatively simple early game with using the spells they can, and resting up mp, running away to do so if necessary) although, at present, slightly harder to macro.

Even some other species can be said to have a relatively decision process (MDBe, for example, is "hunt out the heaviest armour you can, and use the best axe you can").

So, is the problem:
1) Berserkers are too easy (early on)
2) Berserks are overpowered
3) Felids are too easy (early on)
4) Felids are overpowered
5) FeBes in particular are "broken"
6) The early game is too simple
7) something else


I believe that FeBes aren't necessarily overpowered, just have a very simple skillset and options, and therefore a basic early game and only start to get interesting when the choice of jewellery becomes important - but I am far from good at this game and have been wrong many times before so I thought I'd raise this somewhere that people can present more of a case as to why I'm full of it than a few lines in IRC can get across.

7hm

Snake Sneak

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Post Friday, 25th March 2011, 21:49

Re: Are FeBes broken?

I don't think there really is that much of a problem.

FeBe is a build that has very few decisions, which makes for a simple and easy early game, but due to low power and fewer options, a much tougher endgame. It's an interesting tradeoff. Similar to TrBe, but more pronounced.

Bots are exploiting the simplistic nature of the build rather than an inherent weakness of the game. If we keep working on them, eventually they'll be able to do the same with other "simple" builds (non-felid berserkers, followed by fighting non-berserkers would be the next step after successful win with a FeBe... which still hasn't happened, or come anywhere close to happening) and potentially down the road more complicated builds. The bots are doing what a human can't - being perfect (or at least consistent) in known danger situations, and that's a huge part of why they are able to do so well. With a mix between bot and human, it's not at all a surprise that the bot will be largely successful.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Friday, 25th March 2011, 21:53

Re: Are FeBes broken?

Don't mix up simple and easy. FeBe is indeed incredibly simple. Having a few simple combos isn't a problem. They also have a fairly easy early to mid-game, but that's the case for all Berserkers. I'm not sure that they have an especially easy time in Zot. Ultimately, what matters is the difficulty to win the game, not to reach mid-game.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

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Halls Hopper

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Post Friday, 25th March 2011, 22:20

Re: Are FeBes broken?

I think they're incredibly broken. They have all the killing power of a troll but with additional lives too, as well as lots of stealth and +speed. You can slaughter your way through the early and mid game, and then take it a little more cautiously with stealth near the end, which again is something a troll cannot do. Considering that wands lose their potency near the end not being able to use them doesn't hurt the felid. And they don't have troll hunger either. They're basically Troll++. And did I mention the extra lives? Extra lives just seems... very cheap.

Also I beat the Sonja sprint twice in a row with FeBes, but that was mainly via abusing the teleport upon death feature..

7hm

Snake Sneak

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Joined: Wednesday, 2nd February 2011, 03:20

Post Friday, 25th March 2011, 22:27

Re: Are FeBes broken?

ghend wrote:I think they're incredibly broken. They have all the killing power of a troll but with additional lives too, as well as lots of stealth and +speed. You can slaughter your way through the early and mid game, and then take it a little more cautiously with stealth near the end, which again is something a troll cannot do. Considering that wands lose their potency near the end not being able to use them doesn't hurt the felid. And they don't have troll hunger either. They're basically Troll++. And did I mention the extra lives? Extra lives just seems... very cheap.

Also I beat the Sonja sprint twice in a row with FeBes, but that was mainly via abusing the teleport upon death feature..


That really should be changed, if not for the main game, at least for sprint.

Halls Hopper

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Post Friday, 25th March 2011, 22:35

Re: Are FeBes broken?

7hm wrote:That really should be changed, if not for the main game, at least for sprint.


Seriously. I died and teleported next to lom, ran to the orb, got ice stormed, teleported right near the entrance area. It was hilarious. But I digress.

Dungeon Dilettante

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Joined: Friday, 14th January 2011, 21:29

Post Saturday, 26th March 2011, 01:16

Re: Are FeBes broken?

ghend wrote:I think they're incredibly broken. They have all the killing power of a troll but with additional lives too, as well as lots of stealth and +speed. You can slaughter your way through the early and mid game, and then take it a little more cautiously with stealth near the end, which again is something a troll cannot do. Considering that wands lose their potency near the end not being able to use them doesn't hurt the felid. And they don't have troll hunger either. They're basically Troll++. And did I mention the extra lives? Extra lives just seems... very cheap.

Also I beat the Sonja sprint twice in a row with FeBes, but that was mainly via abusing the teleport upon death feature..


Are you seriously claiming that these "perks" make FeBe's overpowered? You didn't bother to mention the trivial no armor at all, no weapons at all (enjoy that -2 UC), no throwing/ranged weapons at all, oh and no wands. Wands are more useful in the beginning when your character is weak and needs them to survive than your mythical "low-potency endgame", but no mention of that either.

Clearly, the lack of troll hunger supersedes all of these problems. It's also handy that felids are guaranteed good rings/amulets with lots of resistances, but naturally those are trivial as well.

Stealth! No hunger! Kill Felids!


Like galehar said, simple != easy or OP.

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Vestibule Violator

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Post Saturday, 26th March 2011, 02:40

Re: Are FeBes broken?

I don't see any good reason we should have two design threads debating the merits of the same combination. (Actually I don't see why we should have design discussions of specific race / background combinations at all- they should be adjusted individually). The other thread has the advantage of seniority, and more constructive criticism / suggestions to date. So I'm locking this thread and asking that people direct further FeBe design discussion here.

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