Dungeon Dilettante
Posts: 1
Joined: Friday, 25th March 2011, 20:51
Friday, 25th March 2011, 21:27
Are FeBes broken?
So it seems that the current crop of bots/macros has been taken as a sign that FeBes are broken; Felids are being nerfed, and there's even a call to ban FeBes outright (e.g. see https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1113). I'm not so sure, however, that there really is an issue, or, if there is, that it's with FeBes necessarily.
1) Berserkers are easy in the early game:
See the 2nd post of the forum thread - https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1022
Essentially Berserkers are pure melee - they don't have to worry about learning spells, they don't have to worry about diversifying.
All they do is fight, berserk and fight, trogs hand (to heal or get MR), BiA (if swarmed or facing a tough enemy) and fight.
Eat when you need to eat, sac the rest for piety.
It's a recommended class for new players because it is so simple.
The only reason I die when playing them is I forget what monsters are hard, or I forget to BiA rather then berserk.
2) Felids are easy in the early game:
They can't wear armour or use wands or weapons so there is less to use and juggle or even think about.
They are carnivores so can eat (most of) what they kill, so food isn't an issue, even if playing a food intensive class (like berserkers).
By the mid-game, where things like resistances become useful they can wear the jewellery they've found and even get additional lives.
I've seen people recommend Felids for new players because they are so simple as there's no worrying about armour or weapons.
As it stands there are very few decisions required for Felids or Berserkers, so very few decisions for Felid Berserkers. It just so happens that the decisions that are required are able to be made by a very basic decision making process:
If you're near an enemy do what you need to (BiA, Trog's hand, Berserk) to kill it, if you're hungry eat, if you're not hungry sac corpses, if you're not ready to berserk rest, if you're rested and sated go hunt a monster.
That simple decision making will get a FeBe to Lair8 without any real thought processes and, if you want to semi-automate it, you can basically make it to Lair8 (including clearing it and every levle on the way) in 6 minutes.
Once Lair is clear you can then clear Orc.
By the youv'e got rPoison and should be able to take on Snake (even Snake 5) and then Hive.
You should then be strong (or rather dextrous) enough to take on Vaults 1-7.
Which is most of the way through the mid-game without any real thought except what jewellry to buy/use and occasional potions.
The fact is, though, that some other classes also have a relatively simple decision making process (IE, for example, have a relatively simple early game with using the spells they can, and resting up mp, running away to do so if necessary) although, at present, slightly harder to macro.
Even some other species can be said to have a relatively decision process (MDBe, for example, is "hunt out the heaviest armour you can, and use the best axe you can").
So, is the problem:
1) Berserkers are too easy (early on)
2) Berserks are overpowered
3) Felids are too easy (early on)
4) Felids are overpowered
5) FeBes in particular are "broken"
6) The early game is too simple
7) something else
I believe that FeBes aren't necessarily overpowered, just have a very simple skillset and options, and therefore a basic early game and only start to get interesting when the choice of jewellery becomes important - but I am far from good at this game and have been wrong many times before so I thought I'd raise this somewhere that people can present more of a case as to why I'm full of it than a few lines in IRC can get across.
1) Berserkers are easy in the early game:
See the 2nd post of the forum thread - https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1022
Essentially Berserkers are pure melee - they don't have to worry about learning spells, they don't have to worry about diversifying.
All they do is fight, berserk and fight, trogs hand (to heal or get MR), BiA (if swarmed or facing a tough enemy) and fight.
Eat when you need to eat, sac the rest for piety.
It's a recommended class for new players because it is so simple.
The only reason I die when playing them is I forget what monsters are hard, or I forget to BiA rather then berserk.
2) Felids are easy in the early game:
They can't wear armour or use wands or weapons so there is less to use and juggle or even think about.
They are carnivores so can eat (most of) what they kill, so food isn't an issue, even if playing a food intensive class (like berserkers).
By the mid-game, where things like resistances become useful they can wear the jewellery they've found and even get additional lives.
I've seen people recommend Felids for new players because they are so simple as there's no worrying about armour or weapons.
As it stands there are very few decisions required for Felids or Berserkers, so very few decisions for Felid Berserkers. It just so happens that the decisions that are required are able to be made by a very basic decision making process:
If you're near an enemy do what you need to (BiA, Trog's hand, Berserk) to kill it, if you're hungry eat, if you're not hungry sac corpses, if you're not ready to berserk rest, if you're rested and sated go hunt a monster.
That simple decision making will get a FeBe to Lair8 without any real thought processes and, if you want to semi-automate it, you can basically make it to Lair8 (including clearing it and every levle on the way) in 6 minutes.
Once Lair is clear you can then clear Orc.
By the youv'e got rPoison and should be able to take on Snake (even Snake 5) and then Hive.
You should then be strong (or rather dextrous) enough to take on Vaults 1-7.
Which is most of the way through the mid-game without any real thought except what jewellry to buy/use and occasional potions.
The fact is, though, that some other classes also have a relatively simple decision making process (IE, for example, have a relatively simple early game with using the spells they can, and resting up mp, running away to do so if necessary) although, at present, slightly harder to macro.
Even some other species can be said to have a relatively decision process (MDBe, for example, is "hunt out the heaviest armour you can, and use the best axe you can").
So, is the problem:
1) Berserkers are too easy (early on)
2) Berserks are overpowered
3) Felids are too easy (early on)
4) Felids are overpowered
5) FeBes in particular are "broken"
6) The early game is too simple
7) something else
I believe that FeBes aren't necessarily overpowered, just have a very simple skillset and options, and therefore a basic early game and only start to get interesting when the choice of jewellery becomes important - but I am far from good at this game and have been wrong many times before so I thought I'd raise this somewhere that people can present more of a case as to why I'm full of it than a few lines in IRC can get across.
