Trunk update on the 24th, no more racial weapons

[ApsychicRat]

im ok with most updates the devs do as i have faith they will lead the game in a healthy direction but one thing i dont understand is the hatred for the racial equipment.

i can understand that the use is very niche and in weapons even more so, but dwarven weapons were always a thing i looked for on a melee character cuz they were usually +1 and were resistant to slimes acid, which really helped. the elven weapons i ger removing and orcish really only suited beough.

if a way could be found to keep the dwarven type tougher weapons i think that isnt bad for the game. even if they lose the name, just overall tougher weapons that let me fight slimes early without as much worry about corrosion would be helpful.

if you think im completely wrong on this matter id like to know why so let me know.

[dpeg]

If meaningful egos can be found, they will be added. As it was, they pretended to do something but didn't really. Yes, dwarves was a bit better, but any ego would trump it.

[Sar]

You can throw stones/use cheap wands/walk away from jellies instead of meleeing them with a dwarven weapon you possibly found and risking AC damage (unless you possibly found a bunch of dwarven gear too) and acid damage.

[Psiweapon]

I always used elven armor on casters when I don't have yet access to mottled/steam/troll armor

Awwww.

[Arrhythmia]

I always used elven armor on casters when I don't have yet access to mottled/steam/troll armor

Awwww.

It's a good thing racial armour wasn't removed then.

[ApsychicRat]

psi, the update says racial weapons are not gunna spawn, armour is still safe

[Psiweapon]

Gah.

Okay, but now, what of all the cool elven/orcish/dwarven weapon tiles?! :S :S :S

[TeshiAlair]

Racial armor makes much more sense than racial weapons, this feels like a really solid change to me.

It would be cool though if tiles mode kept all the existing resources and just randomized what appearance each weapon had, for variety's sake.

[duvessa]

Racial equipment adds nothing to the game and subtracts a lot of clarity and elegance.

The corrosion resistance on dwarven weapons was useless. They still had a high chance of corroding, so if you cared about the weapon, you still didn't want to use it on jellies. If you don't care about the weapon, you don't care if it gets corroded, so corrosion resistance is irrelevant. If you want weapons to generate with more enchantment, just generate weapons with more enchantment.
Circumstances where racial armour is significant are vanishingly rare as well; it is unlikely that a character with spells wants to wear ring/scale/chain mail that isn't some +8 randart (which can't be racial), and elven plate armour doesn't even generate, so the end result is that orcish plate is slightly better than non-orcish plate if you happen to be a hill orc of Beogh (one of the weaker gods in the game), and basically nothing happens otherwise. Maybe dwarven aux armour lets you have 1 or 2 more points of AC at the end of the game if you chose to clear Zot, but who cares at that point.

Randomizing the tile used for an item sounds horrible. Tiles is already maligned for being slower to parse than console, why make it even slower?

[Kate]

Yes, I wouldn't place bets on racial armour sticking around for much longer.

[Amnesiac]

Dwarven armour is quite useful in slimes at least. rCorr doesn't protect completely, so having +2 dwarven whatever is much better than other kinds. There are a lot of times when I care to wear a +2 dwarven piece of armour prefering it over other types. I would hate to see dwarven armour pieces going, because there are also yellow draconians, okhlobs and jellies. You could say that it's minor, but then you could say the same about mutation resistance, even though mutating can have much more severe consequences...

Oh yeah, also elven stuff. I love elven cloaks and boots on stealthy characters and elven body armour on casters and find it flavourful.

Actually I'm a bit sad about weapons, mostly flavour-wise, but I don't care about them as much.

[archaeo]

You could say that it's minor

It's minor. And in any situation where it fails to be minor, it can be more easily handled with egos or god powers.

That said, I wouldn't mind the armor corrosion chance going down significantly with each added level of enchantment for all equipment. I'd prefer corrosion removal altogether, but hey.

[phobetor]

If elven armour were to disappear would there be a chance of seeing a light, magical, or well crafted Ego that lessens an armour's encumbrance rating or spell casting penalty?

Maybe combine Elf/Dwarf into Master work which has less encumbrance and resists corrosion.

[and into]

If elven armour were to disappear would there be a chance of seeing a light, magical, or well crafted Ego that lessens an armour's encumbrance rating or spell casting penalty?

Maybe combine Elf/Dwarf into Master work which has less encumbrance and resists corrosion.

Masterwork ego or something like that would be better, indeed; if it is an ego you could make the effect stronger and adjust rareness accordingly. Lower encumbrance and immunity to corrosion would be both more powerful and much more transparent / easier to understand than current racial armor.

[Hirsch I]

Masterwork CPA, encumbrance 4.
yeah, it has the potential to be very powerful.

[and into]

I think the right balance to strike would be to make masterwork ego good enough that it can potentially compete with some of the various dragon armors (CPA of encumbrance 4 is not going to happen, obviously, despite how satisfying it would be to everyone's inner power-gamer ).

So something like 1.) reduced encumbrance; 2.) immunity to corrosion; and 3.) tendency to generate with better-than-average enchantment level. Especially on a character with few ?enchant armor, that would be stiff competition with trying to enchant dragon hides. This would fill the niche left by removal of the elven mails, I think, and all of the above would fit a "masterwork" flavor nicely.

[Hirsch I]

yeah, I know it wont happen, I'm just pointing that it could become easily a non negligible ego.

also,are you calling me a power-gamer? this is highly offensive! now excuse me, I have to go back to my GrBe game, that I savescummed until trog gave me a Vampiric +9 claymore.

[dck]

I could see a subset of items that are marked as masterwork competing with the current existent ego items and enchanted hides, but these already compete very well with each others so masterwork items would need have remarkable characteristics that make them bring new things to the table. And they would need effects that matter more than recycled effects from racial armour that works for everyone because racial armour doesn't really do much.

[Amnesiac]

I'm sad that you think that flavour from racial stuff adds nothing and then want to tastlessly combine all the racial armour into some useless new brand ._.

[nicolae]

I'm sad that you think that flavour from racial stuff adds nothing and then want to tastlessly combine all the racial armour into some useless new brand ._.

I greatly appreciate the flavor of racial equipment. The actual in-game benefits, not so much.

[Siegurt]

Well, I'm using a elven ringmail of magic resistance on my caster right now, and I'm pretty happy with it.

I don't think replacing 'elven' with 'masterwork' (Or insert whatever adjective makes the most sense) would either be a problem or a significant boon, but I'm all for clarity if it helps.

Having a "easier to cast spells in" variety of basic armour is a significant help, and I nearly always pick up an elven variety of leather/ring/scale on my casters early whenever possible. It changes my build when I find such a thing, it lets me pick up some extra AC early when it's fairly important.

[roctavian]

Most racial equipment tiles were made by me. I regret and apologize for making them, because they have been brought up again and again, whenever removing racial equipment comes up. "Attractive tiles" should never get in the way of "clear and distinct" tiles. I certainly don't think the same items should have multiple tiles representing them.

In a few cases, I think some racial variant tiles should replace the vanilla versions (orcish hand axes look better than vanilla hand axes, dwarven flail has a more distinct shape than vanilla flail). But that's nigh irrelevant to the discussion.

[Amnesiac]

I greatly appreciate the flavor of racial equipment. The actual in-game benefits, not so much.

Don't you like wearing a branded elven ring mail on casters? Or your armour not being corroded in nasty accidents? Or having 40 more stealth with elven cloak and boots? I do... Also orcish armour stinks and elven is all elegant, clean and comfy.

[Sar]

That's racist.

[Sprucery]

Please don't remove elven armour.

[RBrandon]

Orcish weapons actually did a decent amount for orcs of Beogh with good piety, unless you don't think that a free ring of slaying about +0,+8 isn't a lot. Removing racial armour would likewise be a beogh nerf, though these might be problems with Beogh rather than problems with removing racial armour.

[Leafsnail]

I guess the problem with replacing elven with an ego is that it wouldn't allow for armour to be both unobstructive and branded, but that doesn't seem like a huge issue to me.

Orcish weapons actually did a decent amount for orcs of Beogh with good piety, unless you don't think that a free ring of slaying about +0,+8 isn't a lot. Removing racial armour would likewise be a beogh nerf, though these might be problems with Beogh rather than problems with removing racial armour.

Beogh could just give his followers a slaying bonus to make up for it. I don't think that would make him overpowered.

[Sprucery]

I guess the problem with replacing elven with an ego is that it wouldn't allow for armour to be both unobstructive and branded, but that doesn't seem like a huge issue to me.

Well, my spellcasters are happy if they come by a branded elven ring mail in the early game.

[Amnesiac]

I don't see why racial weapons and armour should be removed. Tiles of those are neat and for me it adds a lot of flavour. Orcish stuff for beoghites is pretty cool flavour-wise. I don't see any issues with clarity, too. It's not like it should be so clear that an unspoiled player could easily clear the game without reading any descriptions.

[Kate]

Most racial equipment tiles were made by me. I regret and apologize for making them, because they have been brought up again and again, whenever removing racial equipment comes up. "Attractive tiles" should never get in the way of "clear and distinct" tiles. I certainly don't think the same items should have multiple tiles representing them.

In a few cases, I think some racial variant tiles should replace the vanilla versions (orcish hand axes look better than vanilla hand axes, dwarven flail has a more distinct shape than vanilla flail). But that's nigh irrelevant to the discussion.

If you can come up with a list of racial tiles that you think should replace the current versions then let ontoclasm or somebody tiles-y know in IRC, it should be pretty easy to swap them around, yeah (all the old racial tiles are in rltiles/UNUSED/weapons for the time being).

[dck]

@Amnesiac: The problem is the new player starts the game, starts seeing racial things and reading the descriptions and the descriptions lure him into believing racial stuff is actually worth a damn when it's not- perhaps even to the point he would wear racial gear over branded one because of the perceived bonus (that is virtually none).

[Amnesiac]

does that really happen?

[Leafsnail]

Yeah, when I was new I remember being really confused about how valuable it was to have an "in-race" weapon. Led me to ask a lot of questions and do a lot of thinking about a subject that didn't matter at all.

[and into]

does that really happen?

Until I removed it, the wiki page on demonspawn rhapsodized about how awesomely strong a Ds is with demon weapons specifically due to the racial bonus (as opposed to the fact that demon weapons are really strong on any species). So yes, apparently so. (By the way the tiny Ds bonus damage from demon weapons should probably be removed too if it hasn't already.)

Maybe keep all the racial armor and dwarven and orcish weapons, but lose the species-specific factors for all non-Beoghites? Orcish stuff can just say in the item description that "Devotees of Beogh can use this more effectively" or something, while dwarven stuff tends to be better enchanted and also resists corrosion, but doesn't do anything special for deep dwarves. Elven weapons, helmets, and gloves can just be removed. Then you can describe the small bonus that the item gives in the description and not have to worry about confusion, as there would no longer be *some* elven bonuses for peripheral armor slots, but not others (which was a special casing of a special case that oddly applied to all species and not just elves, and so it is really prone to misunderstanding).

Hell, you can even add something like "Though crafted by Elves/Dwarves, this equipment provides no special bonus to Elves/Dwarves" in the description.

That seems like it would remove the problem of having flavor that is easily mistaken for a decisively meaningful bonus, while keeping in the stuff that (however minor) does sometimes matter. Also Beogh doesn't need a nerf so it would be nice not to nerf him.

[Kate]

does that really happen?

Until I removed it, the wiki page on demonspawn rhapsodized about how awesomely strong a Ds is with demon weapons because of the racial bonus. So yes, apparently so. (By the way the tiny Ds bonus damage from demon weapons should probably be removed too.)

That was part of the patch, yes.

[wesleyshaver]

I've got an idea for using the cool racial tiles: have it so +0 through +1 weapons have the normal tile, +2 to +3 weapons have the orcish tile, +4 to +5 weapons have the dwarven tile, and +6 to +8 weapons have the elven tile. Instead of denoting "racial" status the tiles can denote "quality level" instead.

This could be applied to armor if necessary too.

[Viashino_wizard]

I've got an idea for using the cool racial tiles: have it so +0 through +1 weapons have the normal tile, +2 to +3 weapons have the orcish tile, +4 to +5 weapons have the dwarven tile, and +6 to +8 weapons have the elven tile. Instead of denoting "racial" status the tiles can denote "quality level" instead.

This could be applied to armor if necessary too.

I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to be able to tell what enchantments a piece of equipment has just by looking at its tile. At least not beyond "this is either hella good or cursed."

[rabidweasel]

I'd be happy to see all racial items done away with if we get to keep most of the functionality they used to bring, which would mean something to compensate Beoghites, a stealth brand for cloaks and a masterwork brand or similar for metallic armours.

[Amnesiac]

I'm my current game I have 5 runes and I'm still using elven boots and dwarven gloves for the lack of better options and I'm happy that I have at least some better choice than just vanilla stuff... They don't do much, but hey, maybe my gloves would have been corroded in slimes and I would have failed that stab on that lich in crypt:5

[siprus]

I think racial equipment added nice flavor to the game. Bonuses weren't strong enough to make them default stuff you'd want, but enough to differ them from other equipment's.

[Sandman25]

It's good that racial weapons were removed. As it turns out some new players didn't use demon trident because they already had a trident and were not Ds. So probably demon weapons should be renamed also.

[Klown]

Agate Snail removed.
#mountain-dwarfs-all-over-again

I always liked those D:2 winding squares leading to a chei altar and a nice slow exp-giving snail.

[siprus]

It's good that racial weapons were removed. As it turns out some new players didn't use demon trident because they already had a trident and were not Ds. So probably demon weapons should be renamed also.

people do everything. just because small fraction of % does something stupid doesn't mean that the game should be changed to make it impossible for them to do stupid stuff. Though i always though boost on demon weapons for ds was to accommodate the fact that they can't get them blessed.

[XuaXua]

So probably demon weapons should be renamed also.

Infernal Trident
Infernal Sword

Infernal Axe....

[Hirsch I]

pointy trident
sharp sword
big ass axe
am I doing good?

[Tiber]

I kind of liked racial weapons, but their loss was at least nothing major. Racial armor, which there is currently a patch to remove, is a bigger deal because their bonuses are overall meaningful. Elven armor is great, and the only thing keeping it from being competitive late game is that dragon armor, artefacts, and CPA are better, and artefacts can't be racial. The latter limitation I asked about before, and the response I got before was simply that nobody coded it that way; no gameplay reason was mentioned. Call me crazy, but if features aren't meaningful enough, can't they be made meaningful rather than cut? Likewise, if the problem is new players, maybe the solution is to educate them? Items have this nice description section; how about just spelling out there what each item does?

[Fergy]

I love the flavour from racial weapons and yet I despise most of the bonuses associated with them. IMO, racial bonuses should only provide a hint to the quality of the weapon and not provide any other bonuses besides what would be listed by the enchantment / brand.

You could even extend these passive hints by making certain brands more likely to spawn on certain racial types (no change to the overall, only change the percent chance for each brand).

[Hirsch I]

information leak is mostly bad.

[Galefury]

Aaaaand they're gone.

[dpeg]

Galefury: this will trigger a second page in this thread. The saddest loss is the link between Beogh and orcish armour but it was really more about flavour than mechanics. But hey, we have sacrificed other flavour (Nemelex' portable altar, the spears of Berserkers), so it's alright.