Humans 2.0

[gowby]

This probably isn't an urgent issue, but I wanted to get some opinions and hopefully the devs might see it here. I think humans need to be made more interesting, and there seems to be a really simple way of doing it - unlike the solutions to certain other races being boring (cough Demigods).

My idea is that players can customize Human aptitudes a bit. Give an apt +1, with possibly the penalty of giving another apt -2? This would probably have to be restricted somewhat for balance issues, but I think it would fit Humans in theme as well as gameplay - humans are very diverse and multi-talented, and having them be mediocre at everything is a bit weird! And supremely boring.

This would allow players to customize the most vanilla race to their own playstyle, if they want. It would certainly make me play as a human much more often!

I don't know if this would be difficult to code, however, so if that is the main problem then let me know. I'm not sure whether this has ever been discussed. Thanks for reading.

[Sar]

They are not "mediocre at everything", +0 is a very good aptitude. Also, it would be an interface nightmare. Right now, you can start a game with a couple of keystrokes, and the intention is to keep it that way.

[gowby]

They are not "mediocre at everything", +0 is a very good aptitude. Also, it would be an interface nightmare. Right now, you can start a game with a couple of keystrokes, and the intention is to keep it that way.

An interface nightmare? Let's not resort to hyperbowl. The skills interface is already there, it would just involve highlighting and pressing + or - really.

[duvessa]

+0 is above average for the vast majority of skills, humans are already average or better in strength, and what you are suggesting is making them more similar to other races, not less

[Hirsch I]

while I agree that humans are bland as chokos, I disagree that they need fixing. their neutral apts make them very versatile, allow for good adaptation...
they are exactly what one should seek in humans. your proposal would make adapting later in the game harder, so is totally against the concept of Hu.

[gowby]

Why is the most common reply that 0 Aptitude is good? It's terrible, try comparing it to +2 or even +1 and you lose out on a lot of exp.

[duvessa]

because its better than the average aptitude for almost every skill in the game

[Hirsch I]

if you doubt it:
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=10751&p=148372&hilit=+human+average#p148372
DS is the average species.

[roctavian]

If "-1 all round" represents actual average skill gain, should we re-adjust how aptitudes display?

I don't think it's necessary, this is just idle talk.

[Hirsch I]

I dont think is necessary. we would need to do so every time a new species appear, or is removed.

[Lasty]

Humans are a great race as-is, and I would really hate to see them change. They're my favorite race to play by a fair margin.

[Quazifuji]

I dont think is necessary. we would need to do so every time a new species appear, or is removed.

Only if we got a bunch of new species with 0 or positive aptitudes in lots of things. I think it's definitely unintuitive that, for most skills right now, a -1 apt means being average while a +0 apt means being good at something. Considering the game presents 0 apts as standard/average, it could be confusing to a new player that -1 apt shouldn't be interpreted as bad, just average, and that humans getting 0 apt in nearly everything is actually quite good.

If we just bumped the numbers we used to represent all aptitudes up by 1 but didn't actually change anything from a mechanical standpoint, it would make them a bit more intuitive and make the game's description of 0 as "average" more accurate. Although +6 stealth aptitudes would be silly.

[Wahaha]

Humans are fun to play because their apts are equal. Like other people said, changing their apts to be not equal would make them more like other races and less fun. With not-equal apts there are less skill choices and characters of the race are more likely to play the same way.

[crate]

if you want to play a "more interesting" human then there are lots of those already in crawl: HE, DE, HO, Mi, Mf, even Dr and Ds are pretty similar to humans except "more interesting"

Allowing race customization after selecting a race but before you actually play crawl is not going to happen; one of the things that is good about crawl is that you can start a game by typing just two letters to select your character.

[Sar]

I think Ds are pretty much "interesting humans" already - mostly flat aptitudes and a gimmick that makes them less plain.
The only problem I can see is that they're likely to be weaker for most of the game and especially in early game, barring some crazy mutation luck.

[and into]

if you want to play a "more interesting" human then there are lots of those already in crawl: HE, DE, HO, Mi, Mf, even Dr and Ds are pretty similar to humans except "more interesting"

Allowing race customization after selecting a race but before you actually play crawl is not going to happen; one of the things that is good about crawl is that you can start a game by typing just two letters to select your character.

Also it would encourage false impressions of DCSS design and game play. It was an intentional part of Crawl's balance and style that even very bad aptitudes aren't completely restrictive, and a -1 or +1 here and there doesn't have much of an impact at all. This kind of hypercustomization makes sense in "immersive" RPGs without permadeath where you know you will be sticking with one character for a long time, but not for a game in which most characters, for most players, will live 15 minutes or less.

[duvessa]

Considering the game presents 0 apts as standard/average, it could be confusing to a new player that -1 apt shouldn't be interpreted as bad, just average, and that humans getting 0 apt in nearly everything is actually quite good.

but...they can see all the apts in the manual

[Klown]

My only complaint is the -1 Spellcasting, which makes my OCD go berserk for being so uneven. It's like a crooked picture on a wall. Just...make it 0...world won't end.
I read it went to -1 because of an issue leading to everyone losing -1 SC apt, but the issue got fixed afterwards, yet the spellcasting apts never went back to normal?

[duvessa]

I read it went to -1 because of an issue leading to everyone losing -1 SC apt, but the issue got fixed afterwards, yet the spellcasting apts never went back to normal?

Who told you that? Spellcasting skill used to have a higher cost than other skills which was ridiculous and idiotic so it was removed, and to compensate everyone's Spellcasting aptitude got decreased by 1. The same happened for Invocations, Evocations, and Stealth, which had lower costs than other skills, so those aptitudes got increased by 1.

[and into]

I read it went to -1 because of an issue leading to everyone losing -1 SC apt, but the issue got fixed afterwards, yet the spellcasting apts never went back to normal?

Who told you that? Spellcasting skill used to have a higher cost than other skills which was ridiculous and idiotic so it was removed, and to compensate everyone's Spellcasting aptitude got decreased by 1. The same happened for Invocations, Evocations, and Stealth, which had lower costs than other skills, so those aptitudes got increased by 1.

Just to make what duvessa is saying crystal clear: There used to be a de facto discrepancy between "actual aptitude" and the displayed aptitude value for the specific skills that duvessa listed. The displayed value of 0 was changed so that now what you see actually reflects how much experience is needed to level those skills relative to other skills. The apparent "discrepancy" is the result of fixing a real, actual discrepancy that was both misleading and highly obscure.

[Amnesiac]

I think 0 is a good aptitude for defences and spells, ok for weapons, but for stealth +1 is really mediocre and with 15 stealth factor. While any race can become good at anything, you can't completely make up for a lack of stealth from the beginning till the end. A Vp or Ha can just train 8-9 stealth in a few levels and succeed at stabbing a lot of things, while humans need half as many levels at half the speed. I mean, this is the case when not being good at something is bad(not just normal or average), while they can be said to be good at anything else, so you can say they are good at everything besides stealth, so they might be not absolutely average after all(not equally good at everything). This is just my impression of humans in crawl.

[crate]

15 stealth species factor is equal to the mean if you count vp as 21 at all times. Human dex is pretty average. HuEn is just fine power-wise, so is HuAs. I'm really not sure what you're saying about stealth. Unless you think that for a large majority of the races in crawl stealth is not "good" (I will not argue about that here).

[dpeg]

The devteam was torn between displaying "natural spellcasting" (-1) or "uniform aptitudes" (humans with 0 across the board). These are clashing targets, and some versions ago, the verdict shifted from the former to the latter. I don't think it'll change again anytime soon.

I can state with full confidence that starting screen customisation won't happen. It is much more probable that Humans are removed

[Amnesiac]

15 stealth species factor is equal to the mean if you count vp as 21 at all times. Human dex is pretty average. HuEn is just fine power-wise, so is HuAs. I'm really not sure what you're saying about stealth. Unless you think that for a large majority of the races in crawl stealth is not "good" (I will not argue about that here).

You can play a HuEn without too much problem, yes, since you will rely on hexes more than on stealth. Still, less stealth will mean that more monsters will wake up, and you'll have to spend more time/mp/hp while fighting them. But what about HuAs? You'll have much more monsters wake up, than if you would play one of 7 races with stealth factor 18(and stealth aptitude averaging at about +4) or at least DE or DD with +3 aptitude, so you'll have to rely on weapons much more than on stealth, which is not bad, but not really a good stabber choice.
So yes, I find all the races with a stealth factor below 18 and stealth aptitude below +3 bad at stealth, meaning that the average(not good and not bad) would be between 18 and 15 stealth factor and about +2-3 aptitude. Actually, I think that reducing the gap by improving the stealth factor of most races for at least 1 and adding 1 into their stealth aptitude might be not such a bad idea, to encourage more hybridising with stabbing skills and to give more opportunities not to give up on stealth entirely for some races(and to just reduce the unreasonable IMO differentiation between stealthy races and not so stealthy races). I don't think that this will strongly influence the decision of taking different courses, but I don't think it's a bad idea either. This is my opinion on stealth and what I see as average(somewhat related to humans?). Still, this is very minor even for me, so don't mind this too much.

[duvessa]

assassin is not a stabber

[Amnesiac]

This is not the whole point, but allow me to disagree. A VpAs/HaAs(etc.) can actually stab things pretty well from the beginning and if you keep training stealth, you can continue effectively stabbing monsters relying on stealth purely and collect chunks of exp from uniques and ogres(just running or using curare if you fail, which you will conserve by successfully stabbing monsters in one go).

[and into]

I'll try to limit my comments to game design stuff.

Stabbing damage with short blade goes up enormously with stealth skill and weapon skill, so you don't actually need much stealth to get plenty of damage. As for the other use of stealth skill, relying only on your stealthiness for stabbing and trying to do stabbing as your main offense is a risky and usually not a very good way of playing. Stabbing is strong, but difficult to use against certain enemies, and also it needs certain items and/or spells in order to be even somewhat reliable. This helps make it distinctive as a strategy. When you do get what you need for stabbing, however, it is extremely strong. So I don't think stealthiness factor needs to be boosted even by something so minor as an increase in aptitudes.