Lets just get rid of FeBe instead of nerfing Felids.

[Lawman 0]

So as I noticed this morning in the latest trunk build (and from the complaints in ##crawl) that Felids have had their fighting and UC apts nerfed to -2.
This is an outrage for those of us who enjoyed playing felid hybrids (crusaders and transmuters) because we have been unfairly targeted by the main target of the recent nerf bombings; Felid Berserkers.
So devs instead of making Felids (except for FeBe) useless in melee how about we just get rid of FeBe's instead since those are the real problem.
I mean what the hell are a bunch of cute magic cats doing worshiping the ancient magic hating god of ultra-violence?

[smock]

I think the problem is more with Berserkers in general.

Judging from the enthusiasm in this forum, Ha, Sp, Ko and Fe Be are 4 of the top builds. This suggests that Berserkers are too strong.

[mageykun]

I think it's just that bersekers are more straightforward than strong. The restrictions make them very attractive to play.

Playing without spell casting vastly simplifies the game. No optimization of spell lists, no choosing schools, no risk analysis or training associated with spell success rate or hunger. No micromanagement of the skill screen. Trog himself doesn't require any micromanagement to play. Then there's the simple focus on mele.

Combine with a Ha, Sp, Ko, Fe to further simplify things by providing solutions to the food game and making weapon choice obvious (or non applicable).

Basically, a berserker is a strange concentrated zen microcasm of the greater crawl. The most approachable build in the game shouldn't be made harder just because it's approachable. Newer players need and appreciate the simpler approach to the game (and the reason Be combos are popular here is that so many of us are relatively new players).

[galehar]

So as I noticed this morning in the latest trunk build (and from the complaints in ##crawl) that Felids have had their fighting and UC apts nerfed to -2.
This is an outrage for those of us who enjoyed playing felid hybrids (crusaders and transmuters) because we have been unfairly targeted by the main target of the recent nerf bombings; Felid Berserkers.
So devs instead of making Felids (except for FeBe) useless in melee how about we just get rid of FeBe's instead since those are the real problem.
I mean what the hell are a bunch of cute magic cats doing worshiping the ancient magic hating god of ultra-violence?

What are you suggesting exactly? To make Be a forbidden background of Fe? On what grounds, just balance? That would be a first. And it wouldn't solve anything, players would pick Trog at the temple anyway.

[jejorda2]

I wonder how well it would work to make the lives an ability that has to be triggered. If you notice you are about to die and use your ability, you die and show up elsewhere. If you decide to tough it out, you survive and don't waste the life or it's game over.

I guess it's the same as a wand of teleportation then, with a xp level based recharge mechanic.

[Moose]

I agree wholeheartedly with Mageykun here.

I'm a pretty awful crawl player, despite the fact that I've been playing avidly for three years. The only characters (5) I've ever managed to win with were melee characters. I've never managed to get a caster through the lair despite hundreds of attempts.

I completely enjoy the magicless aspect of crawl, and would love to see more interesting options open up for pure melee characters. To expound on what Magey said, I think the reason felid berserkers are so successful is that they take all the difficult skill/item/spell/god micromanagement out of the game which many find tedious and confounding (myself included, and please don't tell me to go play rogue instead). Couple that with the most straightforward god in the game (Trog), and you've got a class you can really focus on making progress with with the least resistance.

I suppose that makes it an easy class, but not necessarily an overpowered one. Heck, FeBes can't even take advantage of Trog's gifts!! Isn't that already nerf enough?

I dont think it's really a problem that Felid Berserkers do so well ... I think it's a great gateway class/combo for new players to use to understand some of the more basic mechanics of the game, and a great way for them to get a look at mid - late game content. Once people win with a FeBe, chances are they will move on to something else more challenging that requires more thought.

[smock]

Good points on the benefits of having Berserkers in the game and strong.

This, I'm under the impression that the class is stronger than other classes, for 3-rune games at least.

Qould the best players out there have less success with Berserkers than with other builds? Like, are DDNe or NaWi or MuIE hands-down stronger for the best players? Consider 3-runing here, not 15.

[pratamawirya]

No! I LOVE Felid's extra lives!

[galehar]

Is there a reason we can't just remove the extra lives?

We might as well remove the species if we do that, since it's really it's perk. I wouldn't shed a tear since I hate felid's lives too. Another dev suggested to change their lives into a normal life saving system (like gods do). So you're saved but you still have to get out of the mess instead of being teleported to safety.

[XuaXua]

I mean what the hell are a bunch of cute magic cats doing worshiping the ancient magic hating god of ultra-violence?

I agree that Trog needs more restrictions regarding magic use.

[7hm]

Is there a reason we can't just remove the extra lives?

We might as well remove the species if we do that, since it's really it's perk. I wouldn't shed a tear since I hate felid's lives too. Another dev suggested to change their lives into a normal life saving system (like gods do). So you're saved but you still have to get out of the mess instead of being teleported to safety.

I think this is the best solution.

The random warping is really odd.

[pratamawirya]

Another dev suggested to change their lives into a normal life saving system (like gods do). So you're saved but you still have to get out of the mess instead of being teleported to safety.

Yeah, this is good.

[Lawman 0]

What are you suggesting exactly? To make Be a forbidden background of Fe? On what grounds, just balance? That would be a first. And it wouldn't solve anything, players would pick Trog at the temple anyway.

I apologize for not being lucid and clear enough earlier, mornings do that too ya.
My main problem with FeBe is not only that they are clearly the easiest character build (as the bots show) but also that they clash with crawl's design philosophy of giving the players meaningful choices to make over the game and also fail in teaching new players proper skill and item management. Even the other powerful berserker race combo's get meaningful choices to make and allow new players to safely learn the ins and out's of simple item management. By the endgame player Trolls must choose between UC and GSC's, kobolds between demon whips and short blades, Mountain dwarfs between Two hander's and 1.5 handers + shield etc; while FeBe get... nothing, no choice at at all. Felids are forced by their nature to stay with UC the whole game and therefore should rely on their excellent support magic game to enhance their abilities in it. The reason FeBe's are so powerful in the first place is that they allow players to short-circuit that entire required development of support magic with trog's abilities. Berserk skips charms, trog's hand skips necromancy (and provides good MR) and BiA allows Felids to skip summonings; all schools that are their racial strong points.
This is why nerfing their UC and fighting apts is such a bad idea in the first place because you aren't attacking the source of the problem; that allowing felids to worship trog from the get go allows them to get their special spell school benefits for basically nothing while punishing basically every other background (especially transmuters and crusaders) unfairly.
Instead the best way to nerf FeBe's is too just to get rid of them once and for all; have trog refuse their worship (for being accomplishes of wizards) and boost their UC and fighting back to 0 or even to +1 so that the hybrid classes can have their niche back.
We clear now?

[ohmi]

There is certainly plenty of precedent for gods to refuse worshippers outright for flavor reasons, perhaps Trog should be even more choosy. Kobolds, sure, halflings yeah, but perhaps spriggans should also be spurned, after all, if the goal of a SpBe is to never berserk, why would Trog want them?

[MrMisterMonkey]

on extra lives in general: if extra lives aren't needed to win, they're a crutch for bad play, but if they are, I'm not sure they're feasible at all without huge variance in trivial/unwinnable games.


considering this:
general lives improvement idea:
to make life loss important, what if it had a nasty permanent effect on the character?

mild death/strict lives version:

• less total lives
• extra lives are not capped (a cap means that losing a life from the cap and then gaining it again means pretty much no loss); desired caps should apply to the total potential lives.
• no grinding for more lives (I said pretty much no loss because in the current system there is a permanent loss, but it only matters if the player goes for virtual levels over 27, since that lets players get ungotten lives)

nasty death/lax lives version:

• each death makes the game substantially harder to play, by heavy item loss or putting a nasty multiplier on maxhp
• a lives counter is unnecessary if, by the chosen death penalty, within a few deaths, the player will naturally permadie

alternatively, what if, to smooth out the variance in trivial/unwinnable games, death had some, or was purely restricted to, tactical effects?
This may also be coupled with extra lives and the above, but if not, it should come with enough felid changes to require deaths in normal play, but give the player enough leeway to escape, limited by skill, some degree of luck, escape items, how badly the player screwed up, and whatnot, ending up about the same as escape from normal catastrophic failure.
Failure to escape means death, of course, but I'm not quite sure how to exactly do this.

I can't think of anything good for this; sorry.

[evilmike]

My main problem with FeBe is not only that they are clearly the easiest character build (as the bots show) but also that they clash with crawl's design philosophy of giving the players meaningful choices to make over the game and also fail in teaching new players proper skill and item management.

I wouldn't say they are the easiest character build (although they are one of the easiest). More like the most mindless. They are nice for bots because of the reduced inventory management, the ability to see invisible, the extra speed, carnivore, and extra lives providing a nice cushion against stupid mistakes.

Currently, I'd rate DDNe as a lot easier than FeBe, if you know what you're doing. If you die with one of these, you pretty much need a good excuse. A DDNe bot would be a lot harder to write, though. There are also other felid builds a lot easier than berserkers (pretty much anything that can cast spells is better in the long run).

[ohmi]

More Fe nerfs: How about each new life comes with n random mutations, n == number of resurrections-1, or n == XL/4.
Staying where you are is a good idea. Perhaps run the game some turns ahead to let the monsters disperse a little? Or let player choose to "rest" for 100 turns at a pop while they Rot?

[snow]

I think the species is overpowered.

However some of these proposed changes are silly. The game should be intuitive. I say give them nine lives but they are only healed to 1 health on death and aren't teleported.

[MrMisterMonkey]

I almost proposed something like that, but then I remembered about the existence of things like Borgnjor's Revivification, Death's Door, Sanctuary, Enter the Abyss, and legendary Elixir/Portal cards.

Without a lives cap, as I was thinking at the time, this would reduce death to a cue to use one of these, eliminating the need for players to evaluate their situations and make decisions about the necessity of these. For example, since Revivification heals completely but incurs maxhp loss, it is undesirable to use it except when necessary, so normally that means deciding if the risk of not using it outweighs the cost of using it, but with this change, it would just mean using it after hitting 1hp.

But even with a lives cap, the ability to instantly remove the 1hp condition is kind of ridiculous.

[Jeremiah]

A simple way to nerf them would be to make Felids unable to go berserk, like undead.

I'm sure someone could think of a semi-plausible in-game reason for this (maybe cats think they're too cool to go berserk. )

[evilmike]

If you've ever owned a cat you'll know they tend to go berserk about twice a day (usually for no reason).

[ghend]

Are you seriously claiming that these "perks" make FeBe's overpowered? You didn't bother to mention the trivial no armor at all, no weapons at all (enjoy that -2 UC), no throwing/ranged weapons at all, oh and no wands. Wands are more useful in the beginning when your character is weak and needs them to survive than your mythical "low-potency endgame", but no mention of that either.

Clearly, the lack of troll hunger supersedes all of these problems. It's also handy that felids are guaranteed good rings/amulets with lots of resistances, but naturally those are trivial as well.

[from the other thread]

Well, they do have massive natural EV which basically eliminates the need for armour, and those felid claws are damn lethal later on. Trolls can't wear most armour either. You don't really need wands to survive the early game when you're a berserker and can just mince everything that looks vaguely like it might hurt you, or just plain out run them if they're seriously OOD. Although the lack of being able to throw anything makes pulling ranged enemies impossible, so you do have a point there.

[Jk]

Just a quick comment on zerker "easy mode" versus zerker "straighforward mode", as a player who is starting to transition out of newbiedom (as in, the early dungeon is not remotely challenging anymore unless something truly OOD happens):

The thing about Berserkers for advanced players is that they start with a power that is essentially the nuclear "win mode" button for any reasonable fight up until the middle dungeon, and then they get summon help for that part, and really don't have to do much strategic thinking until they're through the middle part of the game.

But this isn't true about new players, because there IS a lot of thinking; managing hunger, for one, which is actually quite challenging as a new player, but is almost completely internalized once you're more advanced.

My thinking is that the way to balance Berserkers would be to make it far more challenging to abandon Trog. This would maintain the attractiveness of the build to new players, but would make advanced players who are just looking for the fastest way through to the endgame think twice.

Disclaimer: I don't really know all that much about advanced players. I'm just hypothesizing

[lucy_ferre]

My thinking is that the way to balance Berserkers would be to make it far more challenging to abandon Trog. This would maintain the attractiveness of the build to new players, but would make advanced players who are just looking for the fastest way through to the endgame think twice.

You mean making the god with the most dangerous wrath in the game become even more lethal? Making Trog harder to abandon wouldn't stop good players from abandoning him. It would only cause more players to use cheesy tactics to survive his wrath. Trog's wrath should be toned down, because it's an instant death to unspoiled players.

[Jk]

Ok, suggestion withdrawn I thought he just summoned a bunch of berserk monsters... and by the middle of the game, anyone could just teleport away and change levels if they had their head about them. I just looked it up, and see there are some other bad effects.

My change would be to make him affect spellcasting ability (frequent miscasts) very badly while under penance, plus some of the previous punishments (with less lethality than "bwaha, you're paralyzed").

Also, I know Trog is still a good god to carry through to the 3-rune win with. For a Berserker to start so strong and finish so strong, I'd perhaps try to tweak his powers to offer less return late in the game. Perhaps berserk deep trolls aren't the right kind of allies to summon, so cap the strength of the monsters at his disposal, or make them occasionally summon hostile a la Mahkleb.

[7hm]

My thinking is that the way to balance Berserkers would be to make it far more challenging to abandon Trog. This would maintain the attractiveness of the build to new players, but would make advanced players who are just looking for the fastest way through to the endgame think twice.

You mean making the god with the most dangerous wrath in the game become even more lethal? Making Trog harder to abandon wouldn't stop good players from abandoning him. It would only cause more players to use cheesy tactics to survive his wrath. Trog's wrath should be toned down, because it's an instant death to unspoiled players.

Trog's wrath is nothing if you know what you're doing.

[TwilightPhoenix]

I like the "don't teleport on death" change. You'd still be stuck in a bad situation and if you really screwed up it doesn't matter if you have one life or nine lives, it's still game over. I would say that, on death, everything happens as it does now, but no insta-teleport. You still drop a corpse (if just because I find that amusing) and it may be best for monsters to finish all of their moves before the player is up again and vulnerable. That way, while you still have to find a way out of being surrounded by twenty-headed hydras, you won't die multiple times without getting a chance to do anything about it.

Exceptions to above: if the player drowns/falls in lava, give them a guaranteed scramble if possible. If not possible, guaranteed blink to solid ground. If still not possible, teleport. If the code allows it, make the teleport as short a distance as possible. On the other hand, if the devs want to be mean, they can just let Felids drown/incinerate repeatedly.

[XuaXua]

Every death reduces maximum character values by 1-5 random.

[sigfried von murdock]

It might make more sense that Trog would not appreciate people NOT berserking for a long period of time.

Spriggans can berserk all they want late game, they just need a good food source like the hive to use. If anything, I think Trog would APPRECIATE a itty bitty tiny creature that worships him to tear the hell out of a titan, gouge it's eyes out, spill it's guts on the floor and call forth flames to envelope the creature 40 times larger than it.

All the same if it is a sentient kitty cat. berserkers pay a high price, and later game have to improvise for their lack of magic.

If the major complaint is that a lot of people win with berserkers, and fellids, well maybe they will get bored and move onto something complex. On a whole I do not really like fellids on the basis that they get... Boring. I would rather see some random draconian kind of element thrown in with them, or gradual evolution into either a larger feline form, or humanoid form rather than see extra lives. The extras can be handy, but it is not in the spirit of hardcore rogue like games. Good concepts, solid game play, and a degree of realism and fantasy really make the game. Banning berserkers on a racial premise seems silly without some good lore, and even then, why can't the "hero" / "Adventurer" be the one exception? What is the likelihood that you would find a orc abyssal knight, or ogre assassin, but they are still options.

I do think ALL the gods could use more character, more specifics, and more fleshing out. What makes differentiates a berserker of trog, and a gladiator of Okawaru? Etc.

[smock]

Instead of teleporting Felid could just "Step from time" and be reincarnated on their corpses after monsters wander a bit. It would be weaker than teleporting but not much. Would also be fun to eat your corpse on the first turn of your new life.