The Tavern

Who am I to ask anyone to sac flavor in order to be straightforward, but I recommend a couple of sacrifices be renamed what they are:

- rename "Sacrifice Nimbleness" to "Sacrifice Dodging" or "Sacrifice Nimbleness (Dodging Skill)"
- rename "Sacrifice Durability" to "Sacrifice Armour" or "Sacrifice Durability (Armour Skill)"

I guess joining yred for drain life and pain mirror is still more justified than joining beogh for smiting and water walking.

XuaXua wrote:
Code:
4eef910 | 2015-01-13 20:36:22 -0500 | Corin Buchanan-Howland Prevent players with certain sacrifices from joining certain gods Specifically Ely, Beogh, or Jiyva can't be joined with Sac Love and Nemelex can't be joined with Sac Artifice. It breaks their core mechanics, and so they wouldn't want you.

Sac Magic (Conjurations); can't join Vehumet, or is this already accounted for?

Was "Sacrifice Greed" considered, where you drop all your gold, force-ignore all gold and shops (possibly locking out some troves in the process!), and can't enter bazaar portals?

Potential value of Sacrifice could be adjusted based on number of shops discovered, items purchased, vs. number of shop-bearing floors left to explore.

Can't switch to Gozag (or Zin? I don't know how Zin works).

XuaXua wrote:Sac Magic (Conjurations); can't join Vehumet, or is this already accounted for?

Veh supports Refridgeration, Tornado, and Shatter, and you can't sacrifice enough magic schools to block all three. Also, Veh likes it when you killdudes, and even w/ no conjurations you can killdudes, so Veh is still happy.

XuaXua wrote:Was "Sacrifice Greed" considered, where you drop all your gold, force-ignore all gold and shops (possibly locking out some troves in the process!), and can't enter bazaar portals?

Potential value of Sacrifice could be adjusted based on number of shops discovered, items purchased, vs. number of shop-bearing floors left to explore.

Can't switch to Gozag (or Zin? I don't know how Zin works).

Probably Sacrifice Wealth. It's been suggested, and I think it's not terrible, but giving it a reasonable piety pricing level is a bit tricky, since it's so dependent on what's already spawned and how much of the game is left to explore, as you point out. It's a conceivable addition for some time down the road.

I don't think sacrifice wealth makes much sense to add as an option. I could probably come up with a post elaborating on that if I took some time to figure out how to say what I'm thinking, but I don't feel like doing that at the moment. In short I don't think that how the dungeon generates should affect your sacrifice decisions, though. (This is likely an opinion thing.)

crate wrote: I don't think that how the dungeon generates should affect your sacrifice decisions, though. (This is likely an opinion thing.)

IMHO, if done, it would need to be worth less than any of Sac Drinking, Sac Reading (Scrolls at least), Sac Artifice, all of which depend (mostly) on what the dungeon generates.

Should Sac Drinking consider water-breathers like MerFolk being able to breathe underwater, or is that going too far?

I think if Sac Wealth were ever added, it would only be offered if you had not yet seen any shops, or something like that. Of course, that might mean that it would never in practice get offered . . .

Lasty wrote:I think if Sac Wealth were ever added, it would only be offered if you had not yet seen any shops, or something like that. Of course, that might mean that it would never in practice get offered . . .

Offered only if you haven't entered (not seen) more than X shops, where X is probably less than 4. Get a y/n confirmation before auto-travel-entering a shop when worshiping Ru if you still qualified for Sac Wealth.

If you really wanted a sac wealth like sacrifice, here's how I'd do it: Sacrifice trading. Player can no longer buy from shops. Optionally include troves, but you don't have to. Disable offering this sacrifice if the player has already bought >X items, where X can be adjusted. You can require them to have never bought an item at all, or allow buying 1-2 items. Allowing buying 1-2 items makes it more likely someone would actually see this sacrifice and be able to pick it as they wouldn't have been illegible because of that one item they bought on d:5, but it could also open up the possibility of someone putting off sacrificing trading until after they reach Orc:4, finding the two best items there, buying them, and then saccing trading. I'd probably set the limit at 0, so you can't abuse it, even though it means few players would ever get this offer.

Should Sac Drinking consider water-breathers like MerFolk being able to breathe underwater, or is that going too far?

I don't think using gills really counts as drinking. Water does go in through the mouth, but it isn't digested. Plus mechanically you're just making an edge case where it's now possible for merfolk to drown and if you forget to think about it you just suddenly lose characters in unfun ways.

tasonir wrote:If you really wanted a sac wealth like sacrifice, here's how I'd do it: Sacrifice trading. Player can no longer buy from shops. Optionally include troves, but you don't have to. Disable offering this sacrifice if the player has already bought >X items, where X can be adjusted. You can require them to have never bought an item at all, or allow buying 1-2 items. Allowing buying 1-2 items makes it more likely someone would actually see this sacrifice and be able to pick it as they wouldn't have been illegible because of that one item they bought on d:5, but it could also open up the possibility of someone putting off sacrificing trading until after they reach Orc:4, finding the two best items there, buying them, and then saccing trading. I'd probably set the limit at 0, so you can't abuse it, even though it means few players would ever get this offer.

Should Sac Drinking consider water-breathers like MerFolk being able to breathe underwater, or is that going too far?

I don't think using gills really counts as drinking. Water does go in through the mouth, but it isn't digested. Plus mechanically you're just making an edge case where it's now possible for merfolk to drown and if you forget to think about it you just suddenly lose characters in unfun ways.

I would probably just set the value of "sacrifice trading" to be proportional to the total value of all unpurchased items. (And probably have it not be terribly high at the top end, and be 0 if you're below a certain limit, so it's not offered.)

I would probably just set the value of "sacrifice trading" to be proportional to the total value of all unpurchased items.

So you want to make sure you reach orc:4 before you take it, for the 4 extra guaranteed shops that then add to your piety? This sounds like a terribly bad idea.

Should Sac Drinking consider water-breathers like MerFolk being able to breathe underwater, or is that going too far?

I never even considered merfolk were actually under water. I always just assumed they were swimming and keeping their head above water.

crate wrote:
I would probably just set the value of "sacrifice trading" to be proportional to the total value of all unpurchased items.

So you want to make sure you reach orc:4 before you take it, for the 4 extra guaranteed shops that then add to your piety? This sounds like a terribly bad idea.

Good point, a better choice would probably be "Some middle amount of piety, less an amount proportional to the total value of all items purchased"
However that being said, I don't think "Sacrifice trading" or wealth really adds enough that it needs to happen..

clearly sac wealth should be offered the first time you see a shop, and never again

crate wrote:
I would probably just set the value of "sacrifice trading" to be proportional to the total value of all unpurchased items.

So you want to make sure you reach orc:4 before you take it, for the 4 extra guaranteed shops that then add to your piety? This sounds like a terribly bad idea.

Should Sac Drinking consider water-breathers like MerFolk being able to breathe underwater, or is that going too far?

I never even considered merfolk were actually under water. I always just assumed they were swimming and keeping their head above water.

Accidentally thanked instead of quoted. Can merfolk pick up stuff submerged in deep water? I assume they'd have to swim down to do that.

Would sac carrying capacity be worth? I mean, limiting the number of different items capping the inventory slots and/or the number of same stackable items for a same slot.

That would be like "sacrifice map" or "sacrifice autoexplore".

Re: sac carrying capacity, I will never intentionally implement a feature balanced around interface screw. Unless I also implement a feature where the interface screw goes away if you pay me money.

Time to go be a F2P dev.

removing item destruction should have been dlc

Sac Hinge Oil: Every door has a 33% chance of sticking shut when you try to open it.

johlstei wrote:removing item destruction should have been dlc

It was! I had item destruction, then I DownLoaded the new Content included in the new version, and item destruction was gone! Free DLC!

Speaking of which, item destruction isn't really gone anyway. Those damn jellies still eat stuff. Every time I hear a slurping noise, I know it was either boots of running, that spellbook I really needed, or a really good weapon.

EDIT: Wow, we're getting a serious problem with Thankflation. I used to get like 2.2% for a single thank, now it's only worth 1.89%? I'm going to need a wheelbarrow of thanks just to get a single star!

damiac wrote:
johlstei wrote:removing item destruction should have been dlc

It was! I had item destruction, then I DownLoaded the new Content included in the new version, and item destruction was gone! Free DLC!

Speaking of which, item destruction isn't really gone anyway. Those damn jellies still eat stuff. Every time I hear a slurping noise, I know it was either boots of running, that spellbook I really needed, or a really good weapon.

They aren't really items until you see them. After that you can be mad.

PS I keep hitting thank instead of quote. (Not that I'm not eternally gracious for your posts

)

XuaXua wrote:Who am I to ask anyone to sac flavor in order to be straightforward, but I recommend a couple of sacrifices be renamed what they are:

- rename "Sacrifice Nimbleness" to "Sacrifice Dodging" or "Sacrifice Nimbleness (Dodging Skill)"
- rename "Sacrifice Durability" to "Sacrifice Armour" or "Sacrifice Durability (Armour Skill)"

My bad here. I am re-reading the Sacrifice screen table, which is set as

Code:: Invocations Cost Sacrifice Nimbleness Nimbleness

In this sense, the "Nimbleness" under Cost should instead read "Dodge Skill", and similar for Durability.

Would it be possible to either split the sacrifices with multiple possible effects (durability, purity, etc) into different sacrifices for each effect, or to show what effect you're going to get in the abilities menu?

There's two reasons:

1. It's kind of inconvenient and awkward that to see which of the possible effects you're being offered, you have to select the sacrifice, and then change your mind at the confirmation prompt if you don't want the specific one being offered.

2. Maybe I'm alone in this, but the current interface gave me the false impression that the effect you get when picking a sacrifice was random, which made sacrifices like durability or arcana seem like huge gambles.

Point 2 obviously goes away as soon as someone tries picking one with multiple possibilities and realizes that it's not random (or maybe I'm the only one who thought that in the first place), but point 1 is still inconvenient, and overall it would be nice to see exactly which effects you're being offered from the ability screen, rather than just seeing which categories of effects you're getting and having to actually select them one by one for the details.

This commit http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a= ... 85957ded1e goes part of the way. I assume anyone who does the same for other sacrifices would get the patch added to trunk.

I saw that last night while playing; much more convenient than reading the summary. It's also when I saw the "Nimbleness" repetition and thought it could be much more improved.

For example, instead of "Sacrifice Courage" costing "Courage", it could cost "Offensive Capabilities" or something saying similar, but shorter.

XuaXua wrote:For example, instead of "Sacrifice Courage" costing "Courage", it could cost "Offensive Capabilities" or something saying similar, but shorter.

How about aggression? That still implies less willingness to fight without accidentally suggesting you're in cahoots with fear effects.

Not that I'm complaining, but it seems like sac artifice (all evocations) gives a LOT of piety. Like, sac a hand worth. It was my first sacrifice and I went directly to 3 stars, in another game it took me from 2 to 5 stars. This might be a bit much. I had 0 evocations in both cases. All it took for max piety last run was low mp 2, inability to drink while threatened, inability to read while threatened, inability to use devices, hated by all, a total of 6 sacrifices.

I'm not saying it isn't a big loss, but there are certainly characters who can get by without evocations fairly well.

Well, you are giving up haste and heal wands, which are pretty huge for a lot of characters. That plus all the other evokable effects is probably close to worth as much as a hand.

I really don't like the fact that so many sacrifices determine their worth by your skills. XP isn't a permanent sacrifice, as there's always more to be had. So I don't think you shouldn't get any piety from the permanent sacrifice god for a renewable resource.

Giant Orange Brainbow Dash wrote:
XuaXua wrote:For example, instead of "Sacrifice Courage" costing "Courage", it could cost "Offensive Capabilities" or something saying similar, but shorter.

How about aggression? That still implies less willingness to fight without accidentally suggesting you're in cahoots with fear effects.

My suspicion is the "Cost" column is intended to represent the actual, in-game "mechanical" cost of making a choice ( -5% HP, -3 EV). "Aggression" describes no mechanism.

damiac wrote:Well, you are giving up haste and heal wands, which are pretty huge for a lot of characters.

Not to mention all evocable allies and any MP boost skilling your Evo over your Invo or Spellcasting might get you.

damiac wrote:I really don't like the fact that so many sacrifices determine their worth by your skills. XP isn't a permanent sacrifice, as there's always more to be had. So I don't think you shouldn't get any piety from the permanent sacrifice god for a renewable resource.

Consider that those skills are potentially filled with valuable "early XP"; going from 0 -> 5 Skill in a -1 skill early in the game costs less XP than doing so later in the game when you have other Skills with investment.

damiac wrote:Well, you are giving up haste and heal wands, which are pretty huge for a lot of characters. That plus all the other evokable effects is probably close to worth as much as a hand.

I really don't like the fact that so many sacrifices determine their worth by your skills. XP isn't a permanent sacrifice, as there's always more to be had. So I don't think you shouldn't get any piety from the permanent sacrifice god for a renewable resource.

XP is a very valuable resource in the early game when you're making most of your sacrifices. Giving up a skill you've devoted a bunch of XP to training early on is a much bigger deal than giving up one you're not using at all. XP becomes infinite in extended, but by then you probably have max piety anyway.

Quazifuji wrote:2. Maybe I'm alone in this, but the current interface gave me the false impression that the effect you get when picking a sacrifice was random, which made sacrifices like durability or arcana seem like huge gambles.

I had the same impression when I was first trying out Ru. It would help if the text better indicated that you would get a choice after choosing the option and can back out if you don't like the choices; not sure how to convey all that in a brief description, though.

That said, I think Ru is awesome.

I think if you've sacced a hand, you should not auto-pickup second copies of rings that are already in your inventory.

Jarlyk wrote:
That said, I think Ru is awesome.

Proof

Code:: Something hits you. _You focus your will and illuminate something in retribution! _An unseen horror comes into view.

Trying out Ru, and have a suggestion for Power Leap. If this is not the correct place, apologies.

It seems to me that for now, this is a glorified blink. It barely does any damage. I think other people have mentioned that this seems to be a weak ability. My suggestion is to make this instantaneous, instead of taking a turn -- in other words, you get to attack first after leaping, in addition to a bit of damage. This could then duplicate the now-removed jump ability of felids and boots of jumping.

I think Power Leap is pretty good. It seems like the explosion bypasses EV, which makes it really handy for finishing off things like blink frogs in early Lair. And it's basically free to use, other than preventing using another ability for a little while. I find myself using it a lot more often than Draw Out Power, though that's pretty good too (especially since the Drain is so minor.)

Jarlyk wrote:I think Power Leap is pretty good. It seems like the explosion bypasses EV, which makes it really handy for finishing off things like blink frogs in early Lair. And it's basically free to use, other than preventing using another ability for a little while. I find myself using it a lot more often than Draw Out Power, though that's pretty good too (especially since the Drain is so minor.)

I agree that it is an ok tool against Blink Frogs and Black Mambas, which are very evasive, but have very little HP. However, I tried it against Hydras, and it barely scratched them. This suggests that the damage is very minor. Of course my piety is one star short of max, I don't know if it does more later.

The no-drain thing does make it a bit more spammable and I definitely use it a fair bit, if only to get into melee range quickly. But, as I said, it is basically a glorified short-range controlled blink, which is decent, but the damage is almost superfluous, and it doesn't feel like a unique god power.

Damage ranges from ~3d12 at min piety to ~3d18 at max piety, but is scaled also by level: you deal 2/3rds damage at XL1, and 100% damage at XL 27.

In my mind, the primary effect is the blink -- a short-range cblink on demand has a lot of possible tactical uses -- and the damage is a potentially-powerful secondary effect. I'd say I use Power Leap for the damage about 1/3rd of the time that I use it.

Lasty wrote:Damage ranges from ~3d12 at min piety to ~3d18 at max piety, but is scaled also by level: you deal 2/3rds damage at XL1, and 100% damage at XL 27.

In my mind, the primary effect is the blink -- a short-range cblink on demand has a lot of possible tactical uses -- and the damage is a potentially-powerful secondary effect. I'd say I use Power Leap for the damage about 1/3rd of the time that I use it.

I did try it out a bit later in the game and it situationally did decent damage. I agree that the short-range blink is decently useful. It got me out of Nikola's sight when I had no rElec

Overall, it is indeed a decent ability. I suppose it is just overshadowed by the other great abilities which Ru has.

The last thing power leap needs is buffs. It's already the most powerful active Ru offers by quite a bit imo. The other effects are more powerful, but the costs are basically infinitely larger, so....

Yeah power leap is stupid strong. My second win was playing an Ogre like I was Mario and just powerstomping in and out of situations. And I suck at this game.

When I first played Ru I had no idea power leap did damage and it still seemed really strong.

I've been running with MfTm with Ru (Very fun combo btw) and decided to go with DrTm. Obviously sacrificing Armor isn't gonna come up as an option. How about race specific sacrifices? Draconians can lose their color, Minotaurs lose their horns, etc?

Yeah, I'd sac stasis as a formicid :)

cerealjynx wrote:I've been running with MfTm with Ru (Very fun combo btw) and decided to go with DrTm. Obviously sacrificing Armor isn't gonna come up as an option. How about race specific sacrifices? Draconians can lose their color, Minotaurs lose their horns, etc?

Sacrifice Individuality

XuaXua wrote:Sacrifice Individuality

I feel like Ru already does this, though. You lose bits of your self (the awesome part of the god, imo) and gain more generic Power (the blander part). I think Ash and Ru should get married and have kid. RuAsh will have great sacrifices and offer great knowledge.

dolphin wrote:
XuaXua wrote:Sacrifice Individuality

I feel like Ru already does this, though. You lose bits of your self (the awesome part of the god, imo) and gain more generic Power (the blander part). I think Ash and Ru should get married and have kid. RuAsh will have great sacrifices and offer great knowledge.

I was giving a name to the "Sacrifice Species" idea that cerealjynx suggested. Perhaps "Sacrifice Species" is a better name.

XuaXua wrote:
cerealjynx wrote:I've been running with MfTm with Ru (Very fun combo btw) and decided to go with DrTm. Obviously sacrificing Armor isn't gonna come up as an option. How about race specific sacrifices? Draconians can lose their color, Minotaurs lose their horns, etc?

Sacrifice Individuality

sacrifice fun.

The Tavern

Proposal: Ru, god of balance and sacrifice

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