Better differentiate Flame Tongue and Throw Flame

[TeshiAlair]

Whenever I play a FE, memorizing Throw Flame always feels kinda bad because the damage is so comparable to Flame Tongue and the only real distinguishing factor is the increased range. While this is fairly significant, it still has a negative feeling to it. Additionally, Freeze, Shock, and Sandblast all have features that make them feel "special" compared to Flame Tongue. Here is my proposed FT change:

Rename to Burst of Flame. Make it range 2 and have it "cleave," dealing 50% damage to neighboring enemies, like a very mini fireball.

Alternatively, make it range one, and have it to 100% damage to a single target, or 75% damage to all surrounding enemies if more than one enemy is present.

This better solidifies Fire as the AoE/tons of boom element, and makes FT much more interesting, with some applicability later in the game (such as against killer bees)

Thoughts?

[roctavian]

We do have the code for cone-shaped spells now, and a range 2 or 3 cone of fire for Flame Tongue would be fun.

[and into]

I like the idea, TeshiAlair, but I'd propose replacing throw flame with "burst of flame" (or whatever), rather than flame tongue.

Flame tongue is already differentiated from the other level 1 damage spells. Throw flame, however, is extremely similar to throw frost and other single target, long-range conjurations. But a level 2 fire/conjurations, or level 3 pure fire spell, that hit in a short-range cone or hit every square immediately adjacent to you (with 100% chance to hit if latter case) would be pretty cool. I think it would also help differentiate FE just a bit more, as you don't get straightforward long-range damage until fireball (if this change is made).

[Sprucery]

+1 for replacing Throw Flame with Burst of Flame (Flame Burst?)

[nagdon]

I think the level 1 attacks (Magic Dart, Flame Tongue, Freeze, Shock, Sandblast, Sting and Pain) in the game are relatively well-balanced and different from each other. On the other hand (as it was already mentioned), Throw Flame (and Throw Frost) are relatively underused spells as their damage/MP ratio is much worse than their level 1 counterparts. Throw Frost is useful for ice elementalists as Freeze has range 1, but I almost never use Throw Flame (maybe only for orc priest sniping at the edge of the LOS).

Instead of Throw Flame I would like a Dazzling Spray-like cone with a short, but highly spellpower-dependent range, for example range 1 with zero spellpower and maxing out at 4 or 5 range. The "hit everybody adjacent to you" suggestion is IMO too similar to Static Discharge.

Parallel to removing Throw Flame, I think Throw Frost could get +1 range (now Throw Flame range is los radius and Throw Frost range is 1 less, los range-1) as it is no longer neccessary to differentiate it this way from Throw Flame.

[TeshiAlair]

Static discharge's thing is that it arcs though. I think it would also be cool to have the surrounding-area flame burst to be relative to how many enemies are near you, doing less per enemy if there are more of them, rather than a random weighting. I also am wary of making burst of flame just "multi target flame tongue"

[Hirsch I]

call it "Burning Hands" and have the Wizards of the Coast sue us already
but seriously now, a cone of fire would be very fitting to the FE style.

[and into]

call it "Burning Hands" and have the Wizards of the Coast sue us already
but seriously now, a cone of fire would be very fitting to the FE style.

Burning Hands: Level 2 fire/hex. Irritates target's hands. Upon failed HD check, target drops all weapons and cannot pick up any new ones.

You could rename Conjure Flame to be cute, if you wanted: "Cone of Fire: Level 3 conjuration/fire. Creates a magical, cautionary cone of fire. Useful for directing the flow of traffic in the dungeon."

[sgrunt]

This seems like an opportune place to point out the congruence between Bolt of Fire and Bolt of Cold, which could use more differentiation. (Possibly Bolt of Magma could qualify here as well, and/or some of the other bolt spells we have.)

[and into]

I've always thought a spell that spread out as a "wave" over a couple of turns would be cool. You choose to cast, you select a direction (so you hit one of hjklyunm) and a continuous wave of lava/frozen mist/flame spreads out. The wave passes through enemies rather than being blocked by them. The clouds dissipate very quickly (like in one or two turns, independent of spell power; mainly the clouds exist only to visualize the spreading wave of damage). Almost all of the spell's damage would be done on the initial "hit" rather than by lingering clouds, as other spells already have clouds going for them. In two to three turns the wave reaches max range. If you want, max range of the wave could increase with spell power.

Why could this be cool? It would be weaker than a bolt in tight places, as it takes more than one turn to connect except at close range. It is potentially stronger in more open areas, however, and yet positioning and range remain important (unlike refrigeration, metabolic englaciation, etc.)—but they remain important in a way that is different from, and a bit easier to hit multiple enemies compared to, fireball/mephitic cloud.

[SublimeSnake]

I've always thought a spell that spread out as a "wave" over a couple of turns would be cool. You choose to cast, you select a direction (so you hit one of hjklyunm) and a continuous wave of lava/frozen mist/flame spreads out. The wave passes through enemies rather than being blocked by them. The clouds dissipate very quickly (like in one or two turns, independent of spell power; mainly the clouds exist only to visualize the spreading wave of damage). Almost all of the spell's damage would be done on the initial "hit" rather than by lingering clouds, as other spells already have clouds going for them. In two to three turns the wave reaches max range. If you want, max range of the wave could increase with spell power.

Why could this be cool? It would be weaker than a bolt in tight places, as it takes more than one turn to connect except at close range. It is potentially stronger in more open areas, however, and yet positioning and range remain important (unlike refrigeration, metabolic englaciation, etc.)—but they remain important in a way that is different from, and a bit easier to hit multiple enemies compared to, fireball/mephitic cloud.

Ooops, meant to quote: but isn't this just Searing Ray?

[and into]

Ooops, meant to quote: but isn't this just Searing Ray?

Maybe I didn't describe it well, but what I meant to describe is closer to (but still very different from) orb of destruction than it is to searing ray. To clarify: You don't have to stand there hitting . as the wave expands, it isn't a "continuously casting" spell like ray. Once you cast the wave, it expands on its own. You can move or do whatever you want after casting—including casting another wave, even another wave in the same direction. It is like a "slow moving" bolt, but in a wave shape. How far the wave extends before dissipating can be set, or spell power dependent.

EDIT: Hell, maybe a spell that lets you set a "bomb" in any direction immediately adjacent to you could be interesting; upon "recasting" the spell the bomb explodes to a very large radius over two turns. (1/2 max radius on turn it explodes, full radius on next turn or something like that.) The flavor here would be that the foo you set releases a powerful wave of (whatever) upon your command, upon your leaving the foo's LOS, or after X turns—whichever happens first. Only one of these "bombs" can be set at a time. Unlike fulminant prism this glyph/rune/bomb/whatever doesn't count as an ally that takes up a square, but functions kind of like a trap or a cloud—you can walk over/through it, as can enemies. This would also differ from fulminant prism in that there is no smite targeting, you have to put it in some tile adjacent to you, it has a larger radius but doesn't deal damage to full radius until turn following detonation, and you (generally) detonate it upon your command. (Active detonation is intended use, the LOS and turn-based thing is to avoid kiting or scummy behavior with it.)

[sgrunt]

Hell, maybe a spell that lets you set a "bomb" in any direction immediately adjacent to you could be interesting; upon "recasting" the spell the bomb explodes to a very large radius over two turns. (1/2 max radius on turn it explodes, full radius on next turn or something like that.) The flavor here would be that the foo you set releases a powerful wave of (whatever) upon your command, upon your leaving the foo's LOS, or after X turns—whichever happens first. Only one of these "bombs" can be set at a time. Unlike fulminant prism this glyph/rune/bomb/whatever doesn't count as an ally that takes up a square, but functions kind of like a trap or a cloud—you can walk over/through it, as can enemies. This would also differ from fulminant prism in that there is no smite targeting, you have to put it in some tile adjacent to you, it has a larger radius but doesn't deal damage to full radius until turn following detonation, and you (generally) detonate it upon your command. (Active detonation is intended use, the LOS and turn-based thing is to avoid kiting or scummy behavior with it.)

Rather than triggering it on recast, have it be triggered as an [a]bility (think Delayed Fireball), and put a cap on the number of them that can be active at once.

Possible variant: one that triggers when a monster walks over / adjacent to it.

[and into]

Rather than triggering it on recast, have it be triggered as an [a]bility (think Delayed Fireball), and put a cap on the number of them that can be active at once.

Possible variant: one that triggers when a monster walks over / adjacent to it.

Yes, I think that's better.

Somewhat cliched, but flavoring it as a "glyph" or "rune" drawn magically in the ground would differentiate it from prism and other spells, and would indicate what it does in a way that is probably recognizable to most who have played RPG games. Off the top of my head, "Emblazoned Rune" for fire/magma, "Ozocubu's Inscription" or something for ice...

[tedric]

Bomb seems too much like Conjure Flame -- I guess it could be used on low-hp "smart" enemies who refuse to walk into an existing cloud of flame, but I don't think I need a spell for that. Conjure Flame is useful against gnolls, plain orcs, etc. because they don't walk over it: you can use it for kiting with ranged spells or launchers, hit through it with polearms, or create a barrier so you can escape LOS.

I like the wave mechanic though, because it would be better suited to open spaces and crowd control whereas Conjure Flame is for tight spaces and one-on-one slugfests. And a wave still has bomb-like elements, since you can cast and walk away while the damage spreads from the point of origin. Accentuate this by having each cloud last one full turn before expiring. So the turn you cast, the wave occupies 2 or 3 tiles contiguously adjacent to you; the following turn it is those tiles plus adjacent tiles 2 away from origin; and the turn after that, the nearest tiles are empty while the wave occupies tiles 2 and 3 away from origin; etc. And scale down the damage/tile at each successively further set of tiles, so the spell does the same total damage with each crest of the wave.

[archaeo]

If we're talking about spells that need differentiation (and I'm all for that), we should also be talking about LCS and Iron Shot.

[dck]

I've been thinking for a while force lance and ishot could be combined in some way, although I'm not sure about the specifics I'd suggest.

[archaeo]

I've liked suggestions for giving Iron Shot a cone targeting system as well (to be more "shotgun-y"), but it's possible that we're all just enamored with our new hyperbolic possibilities. Freezing Cloud and Poison Cloud are two other extremely similar spells, and another place where some kind of alternate targeting scheme might work out (here's the place for a Bad Breath-esque attack, maybe).

I should add that I really don't mind the bolt spells being broadly similar; I think there's certainly room in Crawl for one group of spells like that, and the Bolt spells, flavored as concentrated energy of a given element, look like a sensible place for that. But further differentiating these spells, as long as they serve to create interesting innerschool synergies, would be a good goal for 0.15.

[duvessa]

I strongly dislike cone spells in Crawl because they require awkward projection of continuous Euclidean space onto a grid (and a non-Euclidean grid at that). It's the same reason circular LOS/range is awful and beams at angles not divisible by 45° are disadvantaged*. Why would you want to add more of that?

*this one could be fixed by fully implementing the beam cycling command (^c) and allowing it outside wizmode, or just allowing arbitrarily far away targets

[and into]

I strongly dislike cone spells in Crawl because they require awkward projection of continuous Euclidean space onto a grid (and a non-Euclidean grid at that). It's the same reason circular LOS/range is awful and beams at angles not divisible by 45° are disadvantaged*. Why would you want to add more of that?

*this one could be fixed by fully implementing the beam cycling command (^c) and allowing it outside wizmode, or just allowing arbitrarily far away targets

For dazzling spray, for instance, it takes a little getting used to, but I haven't had much problem with it. I haven't played console in a while, is it much worse there? At least in Tiles my experience has been that the targeting visualization and interface is good enough that you quickly get the hang of spells with "weird" targeting. And once you do get the hang of the (admittedly slightly weird) geometry, it does lead to interesting decisions in terms of how you move and reposition during fights.

Targeting pattern and range are two of the major ways to differentiate spells. Spells that appear in starting books require special considerations, and it is fine for there to be some overlap amongst certain spells (and of course not everything needs to have bells and whistles all over it or be special in some obvious way). Nonetheless, the fact that you can easily branch out into and train multiple spell schools on most characters over the course of the game does mean that having very similar spells is unnecessary, even bad, in Crawl.

[crate]

Dazzling spray's targeting is bad since to get it to hit what you want it's not terribly uncommon to have to target a space that has nothing to do with the things you are actually trying to hit. This ends up being kind of acceptable since the spell is pretty neat and at least it can't hit the same target more than once and it's not a spell you use as a general-purpose spell. But the targeting is still bad.

I'm not sure this is what minmay is even talking about specifically though.

[jejorda2]

I use dazzling spray as my go-to kill popcorn conjuration and my irresistible trigger battle sphere conjuration over magic dart or IMB. Maybe I'm really bad at crawl decisions, but I I keep zaz macro'd to F1, where a is dazzling spray. The ease of targeting is one of its best features.

[duvessa]

I'm not sure this is what minmay is even talking about specifically though.

Ambiguous angles. Here is an example:

  Code:

.......
.....X.
.......
.@.....
.......

You are targeting square X. All of the following lines from you to X are possible in Crawl (you can see along them, and fire along them if walls are in the right places):

  Code:

....... ....... ....... .......
.....X. ....*X. .....X. ....*X.
..***.. ..**... ...**.. ...*...
.@..... .@..... .@*.... .@*....
....... ....... ....... .......

But Crawl only picks one of these and it's not exactly easy to guess which one it will be. So in any circumstance where beam path matters - i.e. there are multiple monsters close together - players are rewarded for being able to predict which arbitrary path Crawl will force them to use. Or, alternatively, for manipulating monsters so that they can fire in angles divisible by 45°, where there is no ambiguity.

A triangle-shaped path has these problems considerably worse than a line-shaped one. You have to figure out which angle Crawl will choose to interpret your target as, just like with the line-shaped one, but unlike the line-shaped one you have the additional problem of figuring out what it's going to look like when it's rotated to form the two edges - unless of course it's a right triangle in which case it is merely exactly as bad as the line-shaped path (we are assuming that the player also knows about Crawl's "circles," ugh). I don't even want to get into Dazzling Spray's additional weirdness.

[partial]

We do have the code for cone-shaped spells now, and a range 2 or 3 cone of fire for Flame Tongue would be fun.

this would be so legit

[TeshiAlair]

I think LCS should have pushback and a stun if it impales them on the wall. Maybe do 60% current damage, and 120% current damage if you impale them. Makes it more of a positioning game.

[khalil]

That'd be fairly neat.
However, the problem with differentiating the shot spells and LCS is that they're all serving the same purpose(Irresistible damage via earth/conj), and it'll be hard to make them continue to serve that purpose while still feeling different.

[and into]

I think LCS should have pushback and a stun if it impales them on the wall. Maybe do 60% current damage, and 120% current damage if you impale them. Makes it more of a positioning game.

Having it do bonus damage under a certain condition (having to do with positioning) could make the spell a bit more fun, so long as it did not involve doing something that is really far afield of normal stuff you'd do in a fight. But making it do 60% current damage absent that condition would probably make the spell useless.

[TheDefiniteArticle]

I use dazzling spray as my go-to kill popcorn conjuration and my irresistible trigger battle sphere conjuration over magic dart or IMB. Maybe I'm really bad at crawl decisions, but I I keep zaz macro'd to F1, where a is dazzling spray. The ease of targeting is one of its best features.

That's the thing: the awful, awful targeting dazzling spray has is acceptable only because it is a low-level spell that you will be spamming. The fact that it often requires jumping through crazy hoops to get it to hit 3 targets, or that the tough guy you want to hit just happens to be in an awkward position that forces the other two beams to be wasted, don't really matter because you're not losing a lot of MP or damage when that happens, and often the only thing you care about is firing an arbitrary number of shots until the target is blinded.

If dazzling spray targeting was on a high-level spell, where every shot counts and a single cast can use up 20% of your maxmp, it would be a much more serious problem.

[TeshiAlair]

Maybe 80-90% for LCS then.

How about this- to capture a cone-like mechanic without relying on the DS cone, have it hit all adjacent enemies for 50% damage, hit all adjacent to those for 25% damage, etc.

[Siegurt]

there is an actual cone-like mechanic (it's used for glaciate presently) which is distinct from dazzling spray's "Hit maybe three-ish enemies in this approximately cone-like area"