Simplify putting on things


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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 04:36

Simplify putting on things

Forewarning: I've only done a rudimentary amount of searching here due to the vagueness inherent in the search terms associated with this request.

I'm always particularly ticked by how hard it is to put on armor/jewelry/etc. There's up to four different "interfaces" one must go through for putting on (1) weapons (2) quivered items (3) armor/shields (4) jewelry. Of these, the only one that really needs to be separate is quivering things (and even that's questionable). Having to remember four different keystrokes to do the exact same thing is pretty frustrating. This separation of interfaces makes it impossible, for example, to tell if you can actually equip a two-handed weapon while in the wield screen (assuming you know you're looking at a two-handed weapon in the first place, but that's a separate issue). There's a whole host of problems, and the whole interface should be completely rethought.

Now, the solution is (obviously) to unify the interfaces, but how? Well, ADOM (yeah yeah, whatever) does a decent job of this [it has some deficiencies of its own in this regard, some not present in DCSS, but overall it's much better]: you get a macroscopic view of the armor/etc. slots you can fill, and choosing a slot presents you with a list of options that can fill it. I've placed some screenshots below. Would I like you to copy this exactly? Not really, I'm sure you can figure out something better. But the equipment management in DCSS has always been a big bugaboo for me, coming from games with more obvious interfaces, and I'd really love to see something that's a lot more unified/streamlined.

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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 05:17

Re: Simplify putting on things

Have you tried putting stuff on via the inventory? Eg. supposing that you have 'd - 11 poisoned needles' , entering
'id' presents you with info about them, including a menu of possible actions (including eg. quiver with q).

Personally, I don't understand why DCSS offers me the chance to wield Giant Spiked Clubs, which my character is not actually physically capable of wielding. That seems like something that should be fairly straightforward to fix.

DCSS does give you a view of the slots you can fill, though it's not interactive. Press [.

As far as I know the usefulness of two-handers is indicated by their color (colored as useless for eg. spriggans), but this may just be my particular RC file. Unfortunately this may overlap with other things that are considered useless but are wieldable (for the character I'm testing with, rods fall into this category)
Last edited by savageorange on Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 05:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 05:25

Re: Simplify putting on things

I'm aware of both, but neither solve the problem of putting in things needing to go through so many interfaces. Putting stuff on via the inventory is even worse, with extra keystrokes.

I think you've misunderstood me wrt 2Hers. Take a nice old SpEn w/ dagger + buckler. If one were to try to wield a quarterstaff (perfectly possible), you'd be blocked by the presence of the shield. There's nothing to indicate you need to take off the shield first until you've tried to wield the quarterstaff. (so the sequence becomes at least T buckler, w quarterstaff, but also potentially w quarterstaff, T buckler, w quarterstaff). This is really inefficient and could be avoided by an interactive prompt akin to [ (except interactive).

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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 05:42

Re: Simplify putting on things

So you want an interface that allows you to modify your equipment in a way that intelligently handles interactions between equipment.

Okay.

] already approaches this somewhat (makes it easy to unequip stuff, but not to equip it). It might be improvable to show empty slots as well, although there is a question of what identifier these slots will use (0-9 are reserved, a-zA-Z are used by inventory). We'd need to arrive at a more detailed plan than this before it would be implementable.

In the short term, it seems to me that an appropriate fix would be to simply ask the user if they want to unequip their shield, if the weapon they are trying to wield necessitates it. IMO this would definitely be better than the current behaviour, which strikes me as obtuse.

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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 06:10

Re: Simplify putting on things

I've always found it odd that the commands to take off armor and jewellery are separate. If it was up to me, I'd just put everything under 'R' (instead of having 'T' for one and 'R' for the other).
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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 06:19

Re: Simplify putting on things

spudwalt wrote:I've always found it odd that the commands to take off armor and jewellery are separate. If it was up to me, I'd just put everything under 'R' (instead of having 'T' for one and 'R' for the other).


Yeah, this is definitely a Nethackism that could probably go, though I suppose there should be an option to use the current system so you don't have to redo all your macros and suchlike.

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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 06:21

Re: Simplify putting on things

You could just have W and P / T and R apply to everything, in the same way that s and . now do the same thing.

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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 06:23

Re: Simplify putting on things

An argument for keeping W/P and T/R separate is that W and T are multi-turn actions whereas P and R are 1 turn or less.

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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 06:50

Re: Simplify putting on things

crate wrote:An argument for keeping W/P and T/R separate is that W and T are multi-turn actions whereas P and R are 1 turn or less.

Mmm, I guess it might be confusing for a new player to try taking off their armor and suddenly finding themselves stuck for several turns while a goblin pummels them to death, but really, how often do you end up taking off a piece of armor without immediately putting something else on? The only times I can ever think of where I've done that is if shield is preventing me from casting a spell I really need to use because I need to wear it to train the skill (which is an entirely different topic), or if I really want/need to use some sort of magic on a character that's wearing heavy armor. I'll occasionally take off a ring and not put anything on in its place (generally because it was a ring of hunger or something and I haven't found anything else yet), but that doesn't take multiple turns.

I'm actually okay with having W and P as separate commands (in part because they take differing numbers of turns to complete); it's just having T and R separate that bugs me.
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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 07:34

Re: Simplify putting on things

crate wrote:An argument for keeping W/P and T/R separate is that W and T are multi-turn actions whereas P and R are 1 turn or less.


Personally, I just remember that all armour including shield is multi-turn, and everything else isn't, which seems equally valid.

I do tend to confuse w/W/P and R/T several times a game, so I guess my muscle memory isn't pro level.

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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 18:36

Re: Simplify putting on things

You often want to change weapons or jewellery in a combat situation, while you NEVER want to change armour in a combat situation, and combining the interfaces makes that mistake easier.

I quite frequently find myself removing a single piece of jewellery with a single keystroke (R). Similarly adding armour or jewellery to the w list would only make it take longer for my eyes to spot the rod or whatever that I am trying to wield (and what would happen to w-, the patron saint of unarmed combat?). So I would very much like the current system to at least remain as an option.
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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 18:39

Re: Simplify putting on things

I mean, the comments here are all valid, but wouldn't it be fairly easy to address this by adding a line at the top of this "combined" menu or whatever that's similar to the drop menu, where it tells you how many turns the action will take?

e: or, you know, auts or whatever, the time/turn distinction is one of those mathcrawl things I kind of just smile and nod at.

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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 19:48

Re: Simplify putting on things

archaeo wrote:I mean, the comments here are all valid, but wouldn't it be fairly easy to address this by adding a line at the top of this "combined" menu or whatever that's similar to the drop menu, where it tells you how many turns the action will take?

Not really. One action takes 3 aut to perform, and another takes 190 aut. Those are real, actual numbers from the Mifi I'm playing right now. Honestly, Crawl should demand confirmation whenever you try to change any piece of armour with a monster in LOS; plenty of less dangerous actions demand confirmation.

But that's a thing purely for the sake of keeping beginners from doing dumb stuff. The merged system (like ADOM uses) requires me to make more keystrokes than I do in the current system, and additionally clutters the interface in a new way even as it tries to remove other clutter, and I can't possibly condone that when there is no mechanical benefit.

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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 21:10

Re: Simplify putting on things

Another reason is that with a merged command it can happen that the list you get does not fit on one screen (basically a problem for standard terminals, but many of us use them).

It would be possible to completely dispense with the R and T commands: when you press W or P, the currently used items are shown, and pressing one of their letters unequips them. (Only loss is when your wear exactly one piece of armour/jewellery.)

We've had discussions like this a number of times. Most likely, nothing will happen.

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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 21:39

Re: Simplify putting on things

dpeg wrote:Another reason is that with a merged command it can happen that the list you get does not fit on one screen (basically a problem for standard terminals, but many of us use them).

It would be possible to completely dispense with the R and T commands: when you press W or P, the currently used items are shown, and pressing one of their letters unequips them. (Only loss is when your wear exactly one piece of armour/jewellery.)

We've had discussions like this a number of times. Most likely, nothing will happen.

I'm pretty sure this works already and you can just not ever T or R(I have them unmapped in my rcfile). I can't manage to reproduce any weirdness with only one piece of equipment, but my rcfile is non-standard so maybe there is something else I forgot about in there.

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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 21:49

Re: Simplify putting on things

johlstei: Alright. I suggested that years ago, but didn't end up using it. (I don't mean any weirdness for single items: the loss is a single keystroke :) Assuming the your only jewellery item is in slot 'a', then to remove it you use "R" or else "Pa". No big deal, of course.)

My point, as far as this thread goes, was that the distinction between W and P is meaningful (for several reasons, as we've seen). The R and P commands are not relevant, though.
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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 22:05

Re: Simplify putting on things

That's what the equip_unequip option does. You tried to make it default, but MarvinPA (at least) opposed to it because when you try to put something which you're already wearing, you accidentally remove it. It's better to have safer defaults.
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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 23:00

Re: Simplify putting on things

I use equip_unequip and haven't ever had a problem with the idea of making it the default.

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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 01:23

Re: Simplify putting on things

I'd like a "Would you like to remove your shield?" prompt when attempting to wield a 2 handed weapon, it seems a bit odd that the game makes you navigate to the armour menu and remove it.

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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 03:57

Re: Simplify putting on things

dpeg wrote:Another reason is that with a merged command it can happen that the list you get does not fit on one screen (basically a problem for standard terminals, but many of us use them).
Under an ADOM-like system, you'd be more likely to fit all the items on one screen: when attempting to equip an amulet, they are listed by themselves (i.e. not with rings); the same goes for other slots. (I, too, use a standard 80x25 terminal; tiles requires too much thought/memory to distinguish things)

I think there are some good arguments against here, which I hadn't considered, but I still find the current interface pretty frustrating. Maybe 2H weapon is just an edge case (and there aren't others) that can be handled separately, but an interactive interface akin to the [ display would really smooth things, and I think it would allow cool things like using Ctrl-W (or some other key combo) to see the time it would take you to put things on. It also allows things like examining your resistances all at once while making equipment changes, etc. There's a number of advantages.

That said, there'd be no reason to straight up remove P/W, etc.
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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 05:24

Re: Simplify putting on things

Drop * doesn't always work; jewelery is still on.
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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 11:17

Re: Simplify putting on things

sirtheta wrote:
dpeg wrote:Another reason is that with a merged command it can happen that the list you get does not fit on one screen (basically a problem for standard terminals, but many of us use them).
Under an ADOM-like system, you'd be more likely to fit all the items on one screen: when attempting to equip an amulet, they are listed by themselves (i.e. not with rings); the same goes for other slots. (I, too, use a standard 80x25 terminal; tiles requires too much thought/memory to distinguish things)
But this requires more keystrokes. The Crawl system needs two (one for the action, a second for the object); yours needs three?

You say you want to "smooth things" but this has different meanings for different people. The goal could be to reduce of commands a player has to learn, or the number of keystrokes necessary to carry out a command, and probably others. I agree that two-handers and shields should be dealt with more intelligently by the interface.

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Post Wednesday, 19th February 2014, 11:51

Re: Simplify putting on things

Leafsnail wrote:I'd like a "Would you like to remove your shield?" prompt when attempting to wield a 2 handed weapon, it seems a bit odd that the game makes you navigate to the armour menu and remove it.


This sounds good to me. At the very least, it sounds like a very simple temporary solution that would, as far as I'm concerned, be strictly better (the only case where it increases the number of keystrokes is the one where you try to equip a 2-hander, then change your mind because you want to keep your shield). And it could always be switched for something better if someone comes up with one.

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Post Thursday, 20th February 2014, 10:18

Re: Simplify putting on things

MarvinPA wrote:I use equip_unequip and haven't ever had a problem with the idea of making it the default.

I think it would be a pretty good default. Generally anything option streamlines the interface like that should be default in my opinion.
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Post Friday, 6th February 2015, 14:51

Re: Simplify putting on things

I made a thread on this, but it got locked for redundancy, so I'm gonna cast animate dead on this one.

Not to self: the tavern prefers thread necromancy.

My basic proposal was for the distinction between jewellery and armor to be dissolved so as to make the management of both less tedious. One person made the argument that conglomerating the two would make you need to go through more things to equip/unequip stuff. However, jewellery and armor perform many of the same functions in Crawl, especially when randarts are included in the equation: many armor egos are also found on jewellery and vice-versa. As such, they should have a unified management system.

As OP mentioned, ADoM's equipment management system is particularly good. As much as I love NetHack, NetHack's equipment management system is the clunkiest I have ever seen in any game ever. Brogue's is pretty bad, because it puts everything under "[e]quip," requiring you to eat food by selecting it from the inventory and then "[a]pplying" it. So maybe completely removing the distinction wouldn't be a good thing after all. However, that is not to say that equipment management couldn't be made easier.
Last edited by mechanicalmaniac on Friday, 6th February 2015, 18:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Friday, 6th February 2015, 15:24

Re: Simplify putting on things

mechanicalmaniac wrote:My basic proposal was for the distinction between jewellery and armor to be dissolved

How many turns does it take to equip or remove an item under your proposal?
Does Okawaru give rings and amulets under your proposal?
Can rings and amulets be enchanted to +2 AC with scrolls of enchant armour (like hats that also have 0 base AC) under your proposal?
How does seeing a ring of poison resistance or a glove change the odds of acquiring gloves of strengthunder your proposal?
How does seeing a glove change the odds of acquiring an amulet or regeneration under your proposal?
How does Ash decide how much to boost magic and defense skills under your proposal?

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Post Friday, 6th February 2015, 15:37

Re: Simplify putting on things

I meant for interface purposes, not gameplay purposes. Shields, for example, are already [W]orn like armor, but are seen as a separate equipment category by Ash.

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Post Friday, 6th February 2015, 15:38

Re: Simplify putting on things

You didn't actually refute the point about having to look at longer lists when you equip. That is a real gameplay annoyance whereas your point about similarities is only theoretical. And AC is a lot more important than any armour egos, so it's not even true.
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Post Friday, 6th February 2015, 16:11

Re: Simplify putting on things

I'd like to reiterate from the OP that the ADOM equipping experience is extremely easy and intuitive, and IMO far superior to Crawl's.

You can see from the SS up top that there is exactly one screen (invoked by exactly one key ('I' iirc)) where you don all types of wearables.

When you press I, you see all of your available slots, each enumerated with a letter of the alphabet beginning with 'a'. To modify that slot's equipped item, you press its corresponding letter, which brings up a menu with all of the eligible items of that type, and once selected, it moves that item into the equipped slot position.

With this PRwWT could all be replaced with one key. To me, that is a boon, and a larger benefit is the wonderful UI (kind of like the current '%' screen) which shows you everything you're wearing/wielding.

Modulo any actually game-play changes, I'd love to see this UI discussed relative to the current experience we have with the various commands used to modify gear.

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Post Friday, 6th February 2015, 16:29

Re: Simplify putting on things

I think the biggest issue here is that equipment changes in Crawl are common in two very different circumstances:

1.) You are fiddling with your overall set up with no enemies nearby (often on a cleared earlier level)
2.) You are swapping something around in combat

Number 2 arises because wielded items (weapons, rods, lantern of shadows, etc.) and jewelry can be swapped around quickly, and you can quiver items at "instant" speed (no time cost at all). Thus, these actions are sometimes useful in combat situations.

The current UI seems to be a compromise between the two different situations, but with ease of use for the second circumstance being somewhat favored. I think that makes sense, though, as a mistake in the context of the second situation (swapping weapons/jewelry in a fight) can potentially be the difference between life and death, whereas a mistake in the first case is just an annoyance. The higher learning curve of this system for new players is definitely a point against it, however.

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Post Friday, 6th February 2015, 17:12

Re: Simplify putting on things

Is there any reason we couldn't keep the current system and add the ADOM-like system under a different key?

I can see value in both types of equipment styles.
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Post Friday, 6th February 2015, 18:25

Re: Simplify putting on things

cerebovssquire wrote:You didn't actually refute the point about having to look at longer lists when you equip. That is an actual gameplay annoyance whereas your point about similarities is only theoretical.

You're right. I didn't refute; I partially conceded -- read the point about Brogue.

And AC is a lot more important than any armour egos, so it's not even true.

If you have decent-AC randart armor that also has decent egos, you use it, and as soon as you start wearing armor with egos, your choices regarding jewellery are affected. It doesn't even have to be a randart, it just has to be the best option immediately available. If you have an rPois +0 leather armor, a normal +0 leather armor, an rPois ring, and a few other, cooler rings, you wear the rPois armor to free up a ring finger for one of the better rings.

Partitioning your outfit into 3 different and isolated categories does pose a disadvantage. The player needs a convenient way to view their entire equipment set to examine the available alternatives. Synergy between different pieces of equipment is important, even across equipment categories.

Siegurt wrote:Is there any reason we couldn't keep the current system and add the ADOM-like system under a different key?

Probably not; that's what I'm thinking now.
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Post Friday, 6th February 2015, 18:30

Re: Simplify putting on things

My two biggest beefs with the equipment interface are the lack of a prompt to take off a shield when you try wielding a two-hander, and the prompt for ring swapping when you're already wearing two (I'd rather choose the ring to remove first, then choose the one I'm putting on; and I'd rather pick them both from a single menu instead of menu->prompt).

I have no problem with the w/W/T/P/R commands themselves, and like keeping them separate for reasons others mentioned. I would also really like a separate, unified interface where you can view all possible item slots, select one, and then select from a list of appropriate items to equip/swap in that spot.

I don't think there is a major drawback to having multiple interfaces that do similar things in a different way, as long as each one addresses a specific need that the others can't. We already have a fair amount of interface duplication -- e.g. $ @ A ] ^ etc. which are all duplicated to some degree in %, but give quick access to specific subsets of character info. I see w/W/T/P/R as analogous but there is no equipment-interface analogue to %.
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Post Friday, 6th February 2015, 18:34

Re: Simplify putting on things

Siegurt wrote:Is there any reason we couldn't keep the current system and add the ADOM-like system under a different key?

I can see value in both types of equipment styles.


I think that would potentially work, though there may be some technical issues to work around (fitting everything in one window while keeping it looking nice). Assuming that could be done, would this be the kind of patch that simply goes right into the game?

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Post Friday, 6th February 2015, 18:37

Re: Simplify putting on things

What if we simply added letters to change equipment of a given type *to* the existing % screen, this would address the interface needs, while not adding a whole new screen and let us alter equipment choices from a screen which shows both all our equipped items, as well as all the results of that equipping.

Edit: Hm, right now the letters on the % screen let you see the long description of the item with the given letter as it's inventory slot, so that wouldn't work unless there was some sort of menu-selecting thing a-la shops/finding etc. unless we don't care about seeing descriptions of items from the % screen
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Post Friday, 6th February 2015, 18:57

[!] already switches between selection for use and selection for description on the spell and ability menus; maybe we could use that.

concerns:
- The [%] character sheet is already a lot of information to take in at once. Equipment management on top of that would be difficult.
- Currently, selecting equipment from the [%] character sheet screen is based on inventory slot. There should be an easily-accessible (i.e. not hidden away in the rc file) option to switch this to being based on equipment slot instead.

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Post Saturday, 7th February 2015, 04:11

Re: Simplify putting on things

if you wanted to add a new equip interface, [ wouldn't be the worst key to make more complicated

probably making it two-column and merging " into it

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Post Saturday, 7th February 2015, 19:48

Re: Simplify putting on things

If that was implemented, I would probably never use PRWwT again.
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Post Sunday, 8th February 2015, 16:22

Re: Simplify putting on things

I think that it hasn't been mentioned here that most newbies will probably be using the mouse anyway early on, its quite quick and painless for this kind of inventory interaction

EDIT:

NVM just realized the posts citing accessibility are over a year old

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Post Friday, 20th February 2015, 15:39

Re: Simplify putting on things

Pereza0 wrote:I think that it hasn't been mentioned here that most newbies will probably be using the mouse anyway early on, its quite quick and painless for this kind of inventory interaction

EDIT:

NVM just realized the posts citing accessibility are over a year old

Well, except for new players who are playing online, since webtiles doesn't have mouse support...

(Or new players who are using some variant of console, but I suspect those are a pretty rare breed.)

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Post Friday, 20th February 2015, 15:53

Re: Simplify putting on things

PleasingFungus wrote:
Pereza0 wrote:I think that it hasn't been mentioned here that most newbies will probably be using the mouse anyway early on, its quite quick and painless for this kind of inventory interaction

EDIT:

NVM just realized the posts citing accessibility are over a year old

Well, except for new players who are playing online, since webtiles doesn't have mouse support...

(Or new players who are using some variant of console, but I suspect those are a pretty rare breed.)


I bet there are plenty of (nerdy) new players who have played nethack at some point and will choose console. I started in 0.11 and I play console anyway, I guess that's not so new any more, but I can't be the only one.

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