Sif Muna revamp

[and into]

I've realized what my core problem with a lot of the proposals is - Sif should reward you learning more about magic. This is the problem with spell success/power boosts - they just make it so you don't have to put as much XP into magic.

This is (another) good point, but one could also rationalize wizardry or pseudo-wizardry on Sif as "helping you branch out into more and diverse forms of magic" rather than specializing in just one thing. Of course if the player uses that higher spell success to cast only one type of spell faster, that is his or her prerogative, just as someone *can* worship Okawaru and never use Finesse once; however, if the "wizardry" bonus applies to all spell schools, than this hypothetical player is not really using the bonus to its full impact. So a narrow kind of wizardry or spell power boost isn't appropriate, but passive and/or active abilities that apply to all (or nearly all) spells, does seem to fit Sif, in my opinion.

[archaeo]

It might be nice if the interface made Sif's miscast protection a little clearer. It seems the easiest way to do this would be to recolor the success rate numbers so that it's clear that, while you aren't any more likely to cast the spell, you won't be in danger of banishing yourself or whatever else might happen. This aspect of Sif is plainly spelled out in descriptive stuff and flavor text in the game, but it's a bit hard to tell what to expect from the interface.

[dpeg]

archaeo: Yes, absolutely.

[Arkhan]

How about some kind of spell editing ability? Say fireballs aren't big enough for you so you go up a size in blast template, for a corresponding increase in MP and difficulty. Or you have magma bolt but need to switch it from fire to ice for very import reasons, or like Haste but don't like contamination: No problem one LVL 9 Haste coming right up. Obviously balance is a bit of nightmare but even in a limited form with very few options this kind of thing could be a lot of fun.
Having the player be able to learn (player learn-able) spells just by seeing them cast would also be very cool if the variety of spells monsters are actually using which a player is likely to benefit from is high enough to merit it.

EDIT: On the training dodging front, Zin has a mechanic where gold donated becomes a chunk of piety which is held back and divvied out later to boost later piety gains. Perhaps this could be adopted so that on joining all of your present skills are accounted for so that you'll be less put off training non-magical skills if you already have the knowledge Sif appreciates in the bank.

Oh god, I'm having visions of "Conjure Ice" and "Battlespheres with elemental properties" and "Line Tornados." Searing Ray- the AoE. Level 9 magic dart that becomes something resembling a Greater Missile Storm from Neverwinter Nights where it fires 12+ at once. Ozcubo's Immolation. Lightning Ball (would actually be amazing since bolt can miss.)
That sounds awesome. That would be amazingly fun.
Some combos might be broken.
But really super fun.

[Amnesiac]

I've only skimmed the topic (not going to comment on anything proposed here) but here is why I like Sif: A lot of the time I don't really want a god that much, but I don't feel like going godless for no reason. Sif is a nice god to just add to your character in that case. Better than any of the other god choices, currently, except maybe Okawaru ... but I think Oka is more of a hassle and obviously for a different type of character. Having more spellbooks is fun, and since I didn't want a god anyway if I don't get piety (by training non-magic skills) I don't even care.

I guess Vehumet is kind of the same way but personally I find Veh more boring than Sif so...

So you mean that Sif is close to not having a god and is just better than nothing. I agree, but would still want a bit more usefulness.
For example oka gives x2 attack speed, so what if sif gives x2 cast speed? or x1.5 but stackable with haste. Kind of a magic oriented Okawaru. Simple but effective. Would it be bad? Or just haste for casting, but cheaper. Or he let's you cast a spell at x1.5 speed after canneling. Or he let's you channel faster or much faster. These are some simple and not very interesing ideas, but so is okawaru and still it would add some appeal and effectiveness. I would prefer any improvement over the current Sif whom I never take.

[duvessa]

Sif is already pretty good. In my opinion, quite a bit stronger than Okawaru. Obviously inferior to Trog or Fedhas or whatnot but that's true of all the gods that aren't Trog or Fedhas or whatnot.

[Amnesiac]

Could you give a more detailed desciption of what you like about him? Do you think he is good in the long run? I think even range-extension of Veh alone is much more advantageous than what Sif gives.

[cerebovssquire]

have you ever used channeling

[Amnesiac]

I have. On evocable items, mostly. And I can find books without sif, too. Isn't he redundant, then? If evocable channeling was removed, that would change things entirely. I understand that sif's channeling is more reliable and becomes good sooner, but in a long run I don't think it's good enough to choose it over Veh's boosts that can't be acquired in alternative ways.

[duvessa]

Sif channeling solves all your MP problems, and you get it at *, which means that it solves your MP problems during the part of the game where MP problems can actually be problems, which is something no other god does. Later, miscast protection also lets you cast many kinds of spells sooner or with less skill training; you can get very good use out of, say, haste or freezing cloud at 50%.

I have. On evocable items, mostly. And I can find books without sif, too.

Actually crawl characters don't start with a 1000-charge wand of wishing, and usually find a sif altar before they find staff of wucad mu, and almost always find a sif altar before they find every spell in the game.

[and into]

I have. On evocable items, mostly. And I can find books without sif, too. Isn't he redundant, then? If evocable channeling was removed, that would change things entirely. I understand that sif's channeling is more reliable and becomes good sooner, but in a long run I don't think it's good enough to choose it over Veh's boosts that can't be acquired in alternative ways.

Sif's channeling is a *lot* better than item channeling, outside of the exceedingly rare Wucad Mu (which carries other risks too so even the superiority of that is very much dependent). As in, evocations 27 channeling with the staff of energy is about as good as Sif channeling with 2 invocations or something, IIRC. Sif takes up more hunger I guess but gives more MP much more reliably. Also Sif channeling is offered at * piety from a god whose altar is guaranteed to show up by D:9 rather than through an item that may show up never, or may show up but only very late in the game.

My main concerns now (since I started thread) are that I wish Sif offered another good piety-using ability (that is, besides amnesia, which is used maybe a few times and only in non-combat situations), and I also wish that Sif had slightly broader appeal by updating the piety mechanic.

EDIT: Duvessa beat me to it, but yeah.

[Amnesiac]

Thanks for you opinion. I think a staff of channeling as a backup would be enough for me and maybe a cboe if I can afford maxing evocations, though. As for books, I'm usually ok with what I find and what Veh gifts. As for miscast protection, it's ok, I guess, but I can easily manage without it. It doesn't take that long to train from 50% to a castable level, unless you are not a mage in the usual meaning. Maybe if you use it for a fighter who is not that good with spells to get a bit better, but it would be strange for a god of magic to be just a support for fighters. I'm not sure. A fighter would benefit more from other gods, though, probably.

evocations 27

In my experience, with 27 evo cboe is just enough, providing you have channeling for a backup. It has under 2% to drain your mana IIRC, which is pretty bad, but with other back-ups it's bearable, considering that you get a huge chunk of MP from one use and wouldn't want to use it that often, anyway.

[and into]

Dude, I'm saying you don't *need* to get 27 evocations to get great MP restoration with Sif. That's the point! You can get 20-something evocations after waiting until the items you talk about show up, or you can worship Sif and get like 4 skill levels in invocations after you've gotten * piety and be set.

I don't think Sif needs to become a great deal more powerful, and that wasn't mainly the basis of my (and others') suggestions, so this is a bit of a derail.

[Amnesiac]

And I'm saying that I'm ok with a backup of the staff of channeling and that I find sif underwhelming and redundant with items you find/skills you get later. That's what I feel, sorry if you guys don't agree and are angry at my stupidity.

What I mean is I would definitely like some straight boost of offensive abilities or something that you can use in combat. Veh gives range and even some mana. Most other gods give sort of straight boost/damage or support of powerful or not allies and heal you/protect you. But sif just gives you mana, that you should run out of in the first place(or everyone would take him and you couldn't survive without him). It doesn't give you that much edge in combat, imo.

[Leafsnail]

I don't think Sif is a bad god, she's just not very interesting and it's hard to say what exactly makes her distinct from Vehumet ("This god gives you spells, makes it less risky to cast them and refills your MP")

[crate]

I would rather take away Veh's spell gifting than take away Sif's, honestly (but that might just be because I think Veh is the most boring god in the game).

Having infinite amnesia + a large spell selection + channeling actually makes my Sif characters feel very different from my non-Sif characters, but I understand a lot of people don't actually use all of Sif's abilities.

[Psiweapon]

Taking away Sif Muna's giving players access to loads of spells (in some way, shape or form) kinda kills the whole concept and flies straight against the epithet.

[Viashino_wizard]

Going back to the "visit an actual library" idea, an easy way to prevent it from being a portable stash would be to just disallow dropping non-book items while you're there.

You drop the foo on the ground, but it instantly returns to your pack.
Sif Muna says: "Littering is strictly forbidden!"

[Quazifuji]

hink(another) good point, but one could also rationalize wizardry or pseudo-wizardry on Sif as "helping you branch out into more and diverse forms of magic" rather than specializing in just one thing.

I defjbitely think her kit should be about branching out. To me, what makes Sif interesting is the combination of guaranteed access to every spell in the game, combined with selective amnesia. Veh let's you Bakst things, but there's no guarantee what else you'll be able to do with your magic. Kiku lets you use Necromancy, get corpses, and a pain weapon. Sif gives you a Swiss army knife.

Worshipping Sif shouldn't be about raw power, it should be about always having the right tool for the job. She gives you every spell in the game (I wouldn't mind a more interesting mechanism than just periodic book gifts - love the library idea - bit I think this part is crucial and should stay), the rest of her abilities should focus on letting you use that massive library.

Two things make using a massive library of books difficult. One is limited spell slots. Amnesia helps with this, but I also wouldn't mind Sif just giving bonus spell slots or the virtual slots than people have suggested

The other is skill training. Being able to cast any spell in the game simply ply costs an absurd amount of XP. So maybe Sif could get an ability that helps with that. The spell-power or wizardry-suggestions people have mentioned help, but I feel.like.even with those, you'd mostly end up specializing your magic and then using those to occasionally grab a high-level spell or dip into am untrained school. I want a solution that encourages you to branch out.

So on that note, what if we gave Sif something sort of like cross-training spells? For.example, a piety-based aptitude.boost to any spell school that's lower than your highest spell school, or to any spell school that's lower than your spellcasting. It would make branching out and dipping into other spell schools easier, and would give you the ability to really take advantage of your full library.

[TeshiAlair]

1. Take all the active suggestions in this thread and give them to Vehumet because most of them are more dakka suggestions anyway.
2. Give Vehumet's passive to Sif Muna, or make it an active since it can give any spell in the game. Perhaps she only gifts spells up to power level (available spell levels) * 1.5, so you can always get them, but you can't just get a level 9 every time you want.

Both gods now make far more sense.

[Amnesiac]

Having infinite amnesia + a large spell selection + channeling actually makes my Sif characters feel very different from my non-Sif characters, but I understand a lot of people don't actually use all of Sif's abilities.

It's just comfortable, not actually game changing like with a lot of other gods. You should just conserve MP with other gods which makes it actually more interesting and teaching.

[Psiweapon]

Sif is already pretty good. In my opinion, quite a bit stronger than Okawaru. Obviously inferior to Trog or Fedhas or whatnot but that's true of all the gods that aren't Trog or Fedhas or whatnot.

I haven't ever seen an altar for Whatnot o_O

Is this a new god or what?

[jejorda2]

[quote="Quazifuj]I defjbitely think her kit should be about branching out.

She gives you every spell in the game, ... the rest of her abilities should focus on letting you use that massive library.

Being able to cast any spell in the game simply ply costs an absurd amount of XP. ... I want a solution that encourages you to branch out.

So on that note, what if we gave Sif something sort of like cross-training spells? For.example, a piety-based aptitude.boost to any spell school that's lower than your highest spell school, or to any spell school that's lower than your spellcasting.[/quote]
Variable aptitudes are a mess. Especially something piety based, since that can go up and back down again.

What if, with enough SM piety, the spellpower formula was changed from SC/2 + AVG(schools)*2 to SC + AVG(schools)*1.5 or even SC/2+ Inv/2 + AVG(schools)*1.5? This means that you can get most of your spellpower from spellcasting or invocations, so you can branch out into lots of things pretty easily. Maybe this could be spellpower-for-success, and still keep the regular formula for spellpower-for-damage-or-effectiveness.

I guess AVG(schools and spellpower)*2.5 makes just as much sense.

I'm saying let Sif boost the spellpower skill to make branching out really easy.

[duvessa]

spell power does not affect spell success in any way whatsoever

[crate]

Having infinite amnesia + a large spell selection + channeling actually makes my Sif characters feel very different from my non-Sif characters, but I understand a lot of people don't actually use all of Sif's abilities.

It's just comfortable, not actually game changing like with a lot of other gods. You should just conserve MP with other gods which makes it actually more interesting and teaching.

no, you are wrong, I actually learn spells under sif that I would never learn under not-sif

[Amnesiac]

Are you talking about spamming something like fire storm?

[crate]

Are you talking about spamming something like fire storm?

no, I mean I learn more spells (like I would actually in theory learn ignite poison if I worship Sif, sometimes, because I am guaranteed to be able to amnesia it later)

My past 5 sif wins have used forget spell 3, 8, 4, 9, and 7 times. Since I use amnesia scrolls first anyway, you can see how infinite amnesia is allowing me to learn spells I intend to use for only a short time; this is something I do very often with Sif and never without. With Veh in particular you can't even use the other option of destroying a book to amnesia spells since you don't get books.

[shock]

I like the idea that Vehumet-worshipers maximize DPS while Sif-worshipers use magic with more finesse. Here are some ideas for passive boosts which fit that theme:
- faster casting of non-destruction spells
- improved secondary spell effects (e.g. AOE, duration, resistance penetration, cast time, accuracy, noise, etc.)
- counter-magic (small passive chance to completely negate monster spells)

[Bart]

I find Sif Muna underpowered nowadays. As much as I loved her several versions ago, staff of energy (yeah, I know you don't always get it) and being able to eat orc bodies all the time moved the balance towards Vehumet-worshipping conjurers.

I agree that selective amnesia lets you fine-tune spells, but so do amnesia scrolls if you find plenty of them. I had also enough 15-rune Sif Muna games to understand the power of infinite mana. The issue is that Sif's bonuses can mostly be replaced by good dungeon findings. Furthermore, most of gods give something really helpful to survive early dungeon - Sif doesn't. Basically before first book there are no benefits from worshipping her besides of situations where character ran out of mana (and these situations should be avoided anyway!).

I like the idea that Vehumet-worshipers maximize DPS while Sif-worshipers use magic with more finesse. Here are some ideas for passive boosts which fit that theme:
- faster casting of non-destruction spells
- improved secondary spell effects (e.g. AOE, duration, resistance penetration, cast time, accuracy, noise, etc.)
- counter-magic (small passive chance to completely negate monster spells)

These are some ideas I had on my own. In the first place I think though that wizardry bonus should belong to Sif, not Vehumet. It is eventually Sif who wants you to become archmage knowing every spell. If taking that away from Vehumet sounds like too serious nerf, we should also consider adding something in place of it.

[DracheReborn]

I think understand a bit better now what Leafsnail, crate, and others have been saying. Sif's miscast protection is sort of equivalent to wizardry, in that it encourages you to cast spells earlier than you could before, but in a way that doesn't discourage training more spell skills (since you still want reliability and spell power). Sif's amnesia ability is sort of equivalent to the proposed virtual spell slots, since it lets you use a larger set of spells (just not at the same time).

So maybe Sif's powers are fine, but I still think Sif is less broadly appealing than say Veh or Kiku. And maybe that's not regarded as a problem.

But if it's desired for Sif to have more appeal, I think one fairly simple solution is to start the spellbook gifts earlier, maybe even upon joining as and_into proposed. Or alternatively, Sif altar vaults could generate fairly often with a spellbook (similar to how Ash altars used to generate with Animate Skeleton). Giving an immediate reason to start training spell skills would IMO make Sif more appealing to more characters.

[sanka]

So maybe Sif's powers are fine, but I still think Sif is less broadly appealing than say Veh or Kiku. And maybe that's not regarded as a problem.

This sounds strange to me, as both Kiku and Veh is tied to one spellschool, and if you do not want to train that for whatever reason they are useless. Sif is useful for a really wide range of characters: transmuters, summoners, enchanters, etc.

But if it's desired for Sif to have more appeal, I think one fairly simple solution is to start the spellbook gifts earlier, maybe even upon joining as and_into proposed.

I think some people here argue that
1. This would make Sif more similar to Kiku and Veh, and this is not good.
2. Sif is already strong enough, she does not need more appeal.

Or alternatively, Sif altar vaults could generate fairly often with a spellbook (similar to how Ash altars used to generate with Animate skeleton). Giving an immediate reason to start training spell skills would IMO make Sif more appealing to more characters.

There are already such altar vaults for Sif, and they were never seemed to be more rare than the Ash altar for me.

[Amnesiac]

What if we just give sif wizardry or even double of that if it's not too crazy(I think for a god ability it's good enough) and Veh will get enhanced spell power(not wild magic, since it's as bad as it's good) for starters. This would be quite thematic and will make taking a god of magic actually a good idea for mages, rather than taking other gods with real powers. Wizardry for offensive spells and more range is quite minor if you compare it to Mak and Trog summons, for example(maybe fedhas, but I've never played him, because I find all this druidic stuff uncool).

[dck]

Except sif is already a pretty strong god and already gives you a spell boosting passive that is more interesting than wiz.
Of course this is like talking to a brick wall since you seem determined to continue pretending sif doesn't have any "real powers". Setting the power standards of gods to the levels of trog or fedhas seems pretty ridiculous to me, too.

[Amnesiac]

Well, tbh I mentioned sif so just it wouldn't look off-topic I wanted to mention that Veh is quite weak, too, since he has already been mentioned a few times here.

Also, I don't want it to look like the only thing I do is underrating sif but... Miscast protection... Isn't it a bit weak? I mean it might look more interesting, but in reality you can just cast spells a couple of levels earlier and they still can fail. Also those few times I took sif out of my thousands of games I would find that it isn't intuitive how he protects. I remember still having effects on miscasts.

[Sar]

I think it scales with piety. I have little Sif experience, but I remember that being my favourite Sif power.

[Utis]

I've realized what my core problem with a lot of the proposals is - Sif should reward you learning more about magic. This is the problem with spell success/power boosts - they just make it so you don't have to put as much XP into magic.

I agree. On the other hand, it would be nice, if Sif Muna would encourage branching into different magic schools. So how about this:

Sif Muna grants a boost to spell power, but exactly how big that boost is depends on how many spell slots you have filled and it significantly higher, if you diversify between different spell schools: double school spells contribute more to the boost than single school spells, three lvl 1 spells from different schools contribute more than one lvl 3 spell, etc.
(So Bolt of Magma might become actually good, if you worship Sif.)

I'd even suggest that if the boost is maxed out, lower level conjurations (up to lvl 4, or maybe 5), exceed their original power cap, making them much stronger, thus putting the player before the decision to either focus on lvl 6 conjuration or to diversify in order to get a lot of stronger lvl 4 one. Which could also make Sif a little bit more interesting to armoured casters.

[crate]

Miscast protection is ok, it lets you do things like cast high-level summon spells or haste at 20% fail--since it's actually ok for the spell to fail, but the miscast effects are really bad (this is true for Haste in particular!). For conjurations it's not terribly useful, but that's because the worst part of miscasting a conjuration is not getting the spell you cast. It's not the most powerful thing Sif offers but it's still a nice benefit.

Making spells more powerful is stepping on Ash's and Chei's toes, they already do that. If you want Sif to be less similar to other gods, that doesn't seem to solve anything, to me.

[Amnesiac]

Hmm, you guys are missing that I say that it's unintuitive. There was a proposal to colour rates adequately and dpeg said it's a good idea, though, not sure how is it going.

About branching, I'm not sure if it's been proposed already, but what if he increases aptitudes with other magic the more you learn magic, or something, maybe scale it with piety a bit. I think it might be a cool idea.

[Utis]

Making spells more powerful is stepping on Ash's and Chei's toes, they already do that. If you want Sif to be less similar to other gods, that doesn't seem to solve anything, to me.

A while after posting my proposal, I realized what I liked best about my own proposal is making lower level conjurations useful for a larger part of the game. Which would also fit thematically, with Sif granting a deeper knowledge of magic and all.

Balance-wise, I think, what I would like to see with this increased-spell-power-depending-on-diversification idea is something like this: If you worship Sif Muna, you basically have a choice: (1) You play as you normaly would, focussing on one or two spell schools to get good lvl 6 conjurations (plus the usual utility spells): Nothing changes compared to the current status quo. (2) You diversify a little bit, meaning that you also have to invest more in spellcasting and/or spell schools than you normaly would (distinguishing Sif from Ash) and gain a small power boost to your main spells, or (3) You diversify a lot and use an asortment of lvl 3 and lvl 4 spells that remain good (balanced with casting cost, of course) even in Zot. All three should be similarily viable, depending on the circumstances of strategy and RNG favour.

[TeshiAlair]

My main issue with any kind of diversity based spell power buff is that it actually removes planning and decision making. It makes Sif Muna go from "I want a variety of spells to choose from" to "I can do all of the spells I want" which while thematic is more boring than currently.

[Utis]

My main issue with any kind of diversity based spell power buff is that it actually removes planning and decision making. It makes Sif Muna go from "I want a variety of spells to choose from" to "I can do all of the spells I want" which while thematic is more boring than currently.

I agree that would be bad. But isn't that simply a matter of balancing the numbers? If you diversify a lot, you either forgoe high level spells or you detract xp from defences etc.

[Viashino_wizard]

My problem with the suggestion is that a power that specifically boosts conjurations steps on Vehumet's toes in a major way.

[mattlistener]

Sif's gift mechanic makes the early game interesting (more opportunities to adapt into spells/schools), but the mid-late game more boring (all spells available = standard loadout).

But when you already have better access to every spell in the game than in every other religion (even with the OP's revamps), additional invokations that let you cast those same spells but powerfuler aren't that interesting, IMHO.

It'd be interesting if Sif Muna invited you to forsake a spell school in favor of another. (Perhaps excluding Conjurations and Necromancy from the latter list.) A Sif Muna game that forsook Charms for boosted Translocations would be very different from a game that forsook Translocations for boosted Hexes.

[Hirsch I]

what with all the DnD suggestions lately?
but I guess it is a good one. game changing, at least.

[and into]

Idea popped into my head last night for a different take on Sif Muna's skills, not sure if people will like it but it is (AFAIK) novel, at least:

Sif Muna
+ Rewards: Discovering new items ("Lore")
+ Rewards: Training magic

All abilities are the same as now, but with one addition:

****-- "Divine Incantation"
You may select a spell you currently have memorized to become a "favored incantation of Sif Muna." In addition to casting this spell in the usual way, you may also cast the favored incantation through the (a)bilities menu; when this is done, your invocations skill rather than your magic skill(s) is used for determining power and success, and the spell uses piety rather than mana. Only one spell may be chosen for casting via Divine Incantation at a time; however, for a piety cost, you can reassign your favored incantation to any currently memorized spell.

There are two major considerations here: 1.) tactically, one of your spells can be "cast" for no mana; and 2.) strategically, you can plan your skill training around the fact that invocations can be used as a "wild card" magic school, albeit only for one spell.

(The additional "lore"-based piety gain is just to make Sif a candidate for characters that haven't already started casting spells.)

[Quazifuji]

I like the idea of the wildcard magic school. Seems like it could be really versatile and neat. You could use it to grab a single useful spell in a school you're not otherwise interested in (grab Bjorg's without Necromancy or Haste without charms), to grab a situational spell useful for a certain branch and then switch it out later (ignite poison for spider/snake, LRD or Shatter to skip parts of Tomb and break into the Slime 5 Vaults), to get around the elemental cross-training penalty (maybe your earth mage really wants deflect missiles), etc.

Item discovery does seem like a flavorful way to enable a small amount of piety gain for characters who don't find a book for joining. Alternatively, would it work to just allow any Sif follower to train spell-casting regardless of memorized spells? Kiku followers can train Necro without having any Necromancy spells, after all. Heck, maybe Sif could even let you train any form of magic. It seems flavorful that Sif opens up your options for studying magic, and doesn't seem too powerful, since training a school before you've gotten a spell is a tradeoff anyway because the XP's wasted until you get a spell to use. Or maybe there's a possible abuse I'm missing.

[Utis]

****-- "Divine Incantation"
You may select a spell you currently have memorized to become a "favored incantation of Sif Muna." In addition to casting this spell in the usual way, you may also cast the favored incantation through the (a)bilities menu; when this is done, your invocations skill rather than your magic skill(s) is used for determining power and success, and the spell uses piety rather than mana. Only one spell may be chosen for casting via Divine Incantation at a time; however, for a piety cost, you can reassign your favored incantation to any currently memorized spell.

Wouldn't that in practise most of the time translate to: "Being able to cast Haste without learning Charms"?

[and into]

Wouldn't that in practise most of the time translate to: "Being able to cast Haste without learning Charms"?

There are lots of good charms spells, so you wouldn't necessarily be saving yourself that much training. Divinely casting haste as proposed above would drain your piety very quickly unless you are conservative in Haste use, when the point of memorizing haste (as opposed to just using !speed) is that you do not have to be conservative in how often you give yourself the fast status.

I'd probably use it more often for things like Controlled Blink, or being able to cast an occasional Freezing Cloud on a guy who mainly went Fire / Earth. You could use it for revivification or even (with enough Invocations training) death's door. But as Quazifuji said, there are lots of potential uses and part of its strength would be that you change your selection across various stages of the game.

[DracheReborn]

+ Rewards: Discovering new items ("Lore")

This is neat.

****-- "Divine Incantation"

The idea is pretty cool, but I'm not sure it fits Sif. It seems to fall into the same trap as earlier suggestions - it becomes an alternative to training more spell schools, which is thematically what Sif wants you to do. Ironically, an ability like Heroism would actually encourage players to train more spell schools, since then you'd need less Fighting/Armour/Dodging.

In any case, it seems to me that we have any cool ideas in this thread to support a new casting god, as opposed to shoehorning them into Sif. Maybe that's the direction these proposals should go?

[dpeg]

This thread seems to have run its course. What we could take from it (subjectity alert!):
(a) book gifting (from permanent books to borrowed books, for example)
(b) miscasts (at least better interface)
(c) piety gain (from skill training to something exploration related)

Spell success boosts and casting from Invocations are detractions, in my opinion.