Proposal: Replace Ice Storm with Glaciate

[1010011010]

Ice storm is the worst level 9 spell in the game.
Not because it's not powerful, it is, but rather because it's overshadowed by fire storm. The two spells are too similar, and since fire storm is more popular, I think it's best to remake the level 9 Ice/conjuration spell.

Glaciate
A partially irresistible Ice based spell which deploys a small number of beams ending with a 1-2 radius explosion, all in a similar direction chosen by the player(similar to a high evo lamp of fire).
Monsters without any cold resistance may be slowed and any that are killed by the attack can possibly become statues of ice, which act like pillars of salt.
The wake of the beam is followed by frost covers ground and some freezing clouds, these two points are mostly for ambiance.

• The spell is needs to be irresistible to some degree, just so it's usable against ice immune monsters.
• Multiple beams with small explosions is a method of differentiating the tactical positioning of this to other level 9 spells.
• The statues of ice actually bring a defensive aspect to the spell. Against large groups, the dead front row then become obstacles for the following forces.
• Any slowing effect is to display the accumulating ice impeding movement.

[MDvedh]

Ice storm isn't the worst because it's irresistible part is more than fire storm's one.
Also it isn't worst because ice school contains much more utility than fire.
And the Glaciate sounds like too underpowered for both AoE damage (ice or fire storm) and single-target nuke (crystal spear).
Sounds overcomplicated for nothing.

[dpeg]

bitcode: I like this approach! The symmetry between the two Storm spells (and which is a little lopsided anyway) is best broken by a more thematic Ice spell, and I like your reasoning.

MDveteran: I don't understand your reasoning: level of power depends on the numbers, and those haven't even been discussed yet.

[MDvedh]

2dpeg: how can 2-range AoE spell be better than fire storm for aoe and better than crystal spear for single-target nukes? If it is then it's overpowered and shouldn't happen.

[Sar]

I don't think Ice Storm is that bad (or bad at all). It deals massive mostly-irresistible damage and Ice Magic is better than Fire Magic overall.
I admit I do like the idea of Ice Storm having cone-of-cold-like pattern and maybe being usable point-blank. Not sure if that's reasonable balance-wise though, and IIRC there was some trouble with coding cone-shaped AoE spells.

[galehar]

2dpeg: how can 2-range AoE spell

Read it better

a small number of beams ending with a 1-2 radius explosion

If it is then it's overpowered and shouldn't happen.

Power level is irrelevant at this stage of the design. Discussing it is a waste of time. Balance comes last, during the testing phase.

[Siegurt]

Ice storm is the worst level 9 spell in the game.
Not because it's not powerful, it is, but rather because it's overshadowed by fire storm. The two spells are too similar, and since fire storm is more popular, I think it's best to remake the level 9 Ice/conjuration spell.

Glaciate
A partially irresistible Ice based spell which deploys a small number of beams ending with a 1-2 radius explosion, all in a similar direction chosen by the player(similar to a high evo lamp of fire).
Monsters without any cold resistance may be slowed and any that are killed by the attack can possibly become statues of ice, which act like pillars of salt.
The wake of the beam is followed by frost covers ground and some freezing clouds, these two points are mostly for ambiance.

• The spell is needs to be irresistible to some degree, just so it's usable against ice immune monsters.
• Multiple beams with small explosions is a method of differentiating the tactical positioning of this to other level 9 spells.
• The statues of ice actually bring a defensive aspect to the spell. Against large groups, the dead front row then become obstacles for the following forces.
• Any slowing effect is to display the accumulating ice impeding movement.

This could use the same targeting as dazzling spray (so point it in a direction and the beams target X number of critters in that general direction) I like the pillars of ice (Also I assume they'd be targetable with LRD, should you have it, for some more icesplosion damage.)

However this does sound like it would be significantly less useful in a corridor, and no freezing cloud (although those could be added) aftereffects means less damage for critters who come on the scene afterwards (Although that is a pretty minor thing) On the other hand creating an ice statue in a corridor (even short term) is powerful positioning-wise so perhaps the drastically reduced area of effect wouldn't be a problem.

Also perhaps if there's only one direction/target to fire in/at *all* of the beams could hit the same square for more damage to the same critter, actually that'd be kinda nice, you could use positioning to determine whether you'd be hitting a few creatures for a LOT of damage, or many creatures for less (but still large) damage. That'd make it more flexible than fire storm in several ways.

[duvessa]

ice storm and fire storm are both useless spells in reality

furthermore, most of the time i would rather have ice storm than fire storm

your proposed spell sounds worse than freezing cloud, which is actually a level 6 spell, not a level 10 spell

[1010011010]

Ice storm isn't the worst because it's irresistible part is more than fire storm's one.
Also it isn't worst because ice school contains much more utility than fire.

My opinion of ice storm isn't based on the damage, but the similarities with fire storm. As a level 9 spell it should be a reflection of the school, yet almost the same as that of it's opposite school.

This could use the same targeting as dazzling spray (so point it in a direction and the beams target X number of critters in that general direction) I like the pillars of ice (Also I assume they'd be targetable with LRD, should you have it, for some more icesplosion damage.)

I didn't think of LDR used in conjuction, but it sounds good.

However this does sound like it would be significantly less useful in a corridor, and no freezing cloud (although those could be added) after effects means less damage for critters who come on the scene afterwards (Although that is a pretty minor thing) On the other hand creating an ice statue in a corridor (even short term) is powerful positioning-wise so perhaps the drastically reduced area of effect wouldn't be a problem.

That's pretty much what I was aiming for, This spell should have a defensive edge

Also perhaps if there's only one direction/target to fire in/at *all* of the beams could hit the same square for more damage to the same critter, actually that'd be kinda nice, you could use positioning to determine whether you'd be hitting a few creatures for a LOT of damage, or many creatures for less (but still large) damage. That'd make it more flexible than fire storm in several ways.

I wouldn't be worried if the spell isn't great in a corridor, there's always bolt of cold and freezing cloud.

I was basing that fire storm is more popular that ice storm on the 0.11 tournament.
since I got curious, here are the spell popularity of the top 100 players in the 0.13 tournament. (although I not sure how accurate it is)

Fire storm 25
Tornado 15
Ice storm 10
Shatter 10

[Baldu2]

What i like most about ice storm is the big killer combo it allows. Shoot orb of destruction at enemy at edge of sight, next turn shoot delayed fireball + ice storm at enemy as it gets hit by the orb of destruction. It's so satisfying to be able to chunk all the enemies in the game 100%-->0% in a triple combo turn except the hell/pan bosses, waaahoooooooo!!!

Ummmm, regarding the thread, ummmm, i dunno. If that thing becomes the new level 9 ice spell, ice storm could have it's damage halved, become level 7, and be renamed ICESPLOSION!!! RawwrrR!!!!!

[minstrel]

The part of this I like most is the turning enemies to ice statues part. I'd further suggest that those statues explode after a couple turns, either in a traditional explosion with area of effect dependant on monster size, or firing icicles as the throw icicle spell in random directions. It gives the spell a little extra danger to cast close up and borrows some themes from lrd and inner fire while being distinctly its own spell.

[wizzzargh]

I'd like to point out that currently, there are no level 7 or 8 Ice spells. I'd much rather see this design space be filled by a promising new spell so there is less focus on Blaster-Caster lategame being "Get the Level 9 spell of your school, cast it forever"

[indspenceable]

ice storm and fire storm are both useless spells in reality

It's really not. How is a high power conjuration that deals a good deal of of un-resistable damage, in an element that is not heavily resisted to begin with entirely without use?

As someone who clearly likes this game and plays it a bunch, being contrarian for the sake of disagreeing with people on the forums is counterproductive, I would think.

[duvessa]

It's really not. How is a high power conjuration that deals a good deal of of un-resistable damage, in an element that is not heavily resisted to begin with entirely without use?

fire storm and ice storm are bad spells because they are level 9 spells with two schools; it is very rare for that to be a worthwhile investment compared to, say, the level 8 spell that literally makes you invincible

[skyspire]

duvessa are you talking about Lehudib's Crystal Spear? I do think it's cool to have variety of different spells to use Glaciate sounds cool, and the slowing effect does make it unique for a high level spell. It can encourage using multiple spells instead of spamming the same spell again and again.

[Tiktacy]

It's really not. How is a high power conjuration that deals a good deal of of un-resistable damage, in an element that is not heavily resisted to begin with entirely without use?

fire storm and ice storm are bad spells because they are level 9 spells with two schools; it is very rare for that to be a worthwhile investment compared to, say, the level 8 spell that literally makes you invincible

We don't need another "I say this thing sucks so why bother improving it" thread. Seriously, shut up.

As for the op, I just wanted to say that I think changing ice storm to a new spell like this fits crawls "subtle symmetry" dynamic quite well. In otherwords, we already have a storm spell, we don't need 2 of the same spell but slightly different. If we did, then there would be a fire analogue to freezing cloud.

Fantastic idea, +1.

[reaver]

duvessa are you talking about Lehudib's Crystal Spear? I do think it's cool to have variety of different spells to use Glaciate sounds cool, and the slowing effect does make it unique for a high level spell. It can encourage using multiple spells instead of spamming the same spell again and again.

I believe he's talking about Death's Door, hence the "literally."

[dck]

So why was the manly and great "You stand defiantly in death's doorway." replaced by some pansy-ass "You feel invincible!" anyway?
Even worse why does someone like Nergalle get to keep the cool line?

[njvack]

fire storm and ice storm are bad spells because they are level 9 spells with two schools; it is very rare for that to be a worthwhile investment compared to, say, the level 8 spell that literally makes you invincible

Hm... does this mean that there's essentially no "make the spell more powerful" numbers tweak to make two-school L9 spells a good investment, because there are spells that get the job done (all the way through extended) for a smaller investment?

I'll admit that Shatter and Tornado have felt to me like they're a lot easier to get online for similar (essentially: plenty) killdudesiness levels.

What if the L9 Fire/Ice spells were ultimately made one-school? When I really think about it, there's no compelling flavor reason why Tornado is Air as opposed to Conj/Air. Sure, you aren't "conjuring" a tornado, but you aren't "conjuring" electricity, either. Electricity does not work like that

Also: one design corner that's missing in the L9 Nukes category (and might fit well with Ice, which already has fcloud and refrig) is something that's less brutally murderous, but quiet.

[pratamawirya]

Also: one design corner that's missing in the L9 Nukes category (and might fit well with Ice, which already has fcloud and refrig) is something that's less brutally murderous, but quiet.

I like this.

[Sandman25]

I am sure Fire/Ice Storm is less investment than Death's Door for a character with Bolt of Fire/Cold. Another thing I am sure that I have been told several times that going for Necromutation is a bad idea despite Necromutation is a dual schools level 8 spell too and it makes taking 10 runes much easier, even easier than Death's Door.

As someone who clearly likes this game and plays it a bunch, being contrarian for the sake of disagreeing with people on the forums is counterproductive, I would think.

+1

[reaver]

I am sure Fire/Ice Storm is less investment than Death's Door for a character with Bolt of Fire/Cold.

Even more characters get Haste, which is a single school spell in one of Death's Door's schools.

Another thing I am sure that I have been told several times that going for Necromutation is a bad idea despite Necromutation is a dual schools level 8 spell too and it makes taking 10 runes much easier, even easier than Death's Door.

The "it makes taking 10 runes much easier, even easier than Death's Door." is the part where players disagree. Necromutation has extremely significant drawbacks, most notably the loss of potions.

[Sandman25]

Even more characters get Haste, which is a single school spell in one of Death's Door's schools.

I don't suggest to go for foo storm with most characters. I just disagree with

ice storm and fire storm are both useless spells in reality

[dck]

They are, however, completely superfluous and useless to basically any character. There is no situation in a game played with the goal of winning where being able to cast fire storm or ice storm (although ice storm is less shit to a significant degree) improves your character's chances of not dying more than having a lot more hps and defenses, being stealthier or having better, lower level spells available.
Or all of these three as they do not require extraordinary exp investments, unlike getting a storm to a castable state.

[Tiktacy]

@dck: they are indeed superfluous and way too far out of reach for most characters. However, if we simply made them level 8, it would I probably fix that problem real fast...

[TwilightPhoenix]

To be honest, I really don't know how killing things dead more efficiently doesn't make you safer than not killing things dead more efficiently. During my one 15-rune game (I hate extended, so I usually get no more than 5), I had Ice Storm. That spell made Zot so easy I cleared it for XP before I had all the runes. It was the easiest visit to Zot I ever had. Heck, I had the spell online before I was done with Vaults even and that was the easiest Vaults rune I ever obtained.

Granted, that spell is going to be way out of reach for almost all characters (playing a DEVM of Veh made getting Ice Storm much easier than typical in my case). It's a huge investment to go for it, but it pays off. Just like how going for whatever other end-game strategy will require a big XP investment but pay off in the end. But, if you're playing a blasty-wizard, chances are you're training Conj and an elemental school of your choice anyway, so if you're investing in Ice Magic... why not grab it?


Now, more on topic, I like the idea for the spell. Adding soft-control effects and the like to it in exchange for damage seems to be the sort of thing Ice-magic would do. And plus, as said many times, differentiating it from Fire Storm is always a good thing.

[Sandman25]

For the record I like suggested spell too, it will be a good change.

[rchandra]

I really don't like the spell. There should be plainer spells so that the fancier spells look fancier, even at L9. Ice Magic gets more utility on the way up than Fire in exchange for less damage, and the Storms reverse it. Sometimes you just want a simple blast of chilly death, not every meal needs to be bacon.

[1010011010]

there are no level 7 or 8 Ice spells.

Ice has more spells than fire (15 to 14) and plenty nice level 6 ones, maybe one of those level 6 spells should be bumped up.

There should be plainer spells so that the fancier spells look fancier

I would like a more simpler attack but tried for a something different than what we have already.

Sometimes you just want a simple blast of chilly death

Not for a level 9 spell which should reflect the nature of ice. It's the pinnacle of ice spells.

[dck]

ozoarmour, throw icicle and ozo's fridge are the pinnacle of ice spells.

[Sar]

No, Freeze is. Never misses, ignores AC, available on turn 0 for all IE.

[graffen69]

I do like this proposal as Ice storm needs something to compete (FS has BOTH smite targeting+vortices). Glaciate sounds like a really fun spell to use.
I think that all level 9 spells should be either all single school or all dual schools.

[tompliss]

I think that all level 9 spells should be either all single school or all dual schools.

Well, all lvl9 spells aer "simple" damage dealers. and even if it could be said the Tornado is summoned and the Shatter is an Hex, they're gameplay--wise conjurations ...
So we would only have conjurations, as lvl9 spells :/

[graffen69]

I was thinking more like Fire, Ice, Earth & Air respectively. Earth & Air already has the benefit of being single schools as well as having races with up to +3 apt.
Anyways, I´m all for Glaciate but not sure Ice Storm needs a name change.

[and into]

This is GDD, not advice. I agree that dual school, lvl 9 spells are extremely expensive and often times not worth it for most characters, in most games, and I'm happy to point this out to people in relevant CIP and advice threads.

That being said, I am very glad that fire storm and the like are in the game, and I'm very glad that "cut everything that is not strictly necessary/optimal in order to win" has not become part of Crawl's design philosophy, as this would make it a significantly worse game. More generally, I'll just say that it is a bit depressing to see how often experienced players (and forum posters) use GDD threads as pretexts to comment on what they take to be superior play style. Even when what is being said is accurate, it is distracting and off topic.

Anyway, as for the design discussion so far:

I don't think anything about ice storm is broken, and nothing about it *needs* to change in order to "compete" with fire storm. Ice storm already does that by 1.) being ice/conj., and ice anti-trains with fire, and ice as a spell school has a lot going for it that fire lacks; and 2.) having a larger irresistible component to its damage. The former is the main differentiation, the latter is not such a huge deal but still something. Further differentiation probably isn't necessary, but if a really cool (no pun intended) spell proposal comes out of this that would not be a bad thing. However, I will say that there is something nice about the current set up: At an aesthetic level, I like that fire and ice get lvl. 9 dual school spells, while earth and air get single school lvl. 9 spells. And because their mechanics do still differ somewhat, I'm really okay with fire and ice both getting "storm" spells that operate similarly.

If any developers do agree with OP that further differentiation is warranted, a smaller tweak to how ice storm works might be better than a revamp. My suggestion if this is deemed necessary would be to give ice storm more of a "blizzard" feel: targeting and irresistible component of damage is same as now, but initial AOE blast is 9 squares total (like fireball), with freezing clouds lingering in blast radius (as now); however, next turn a slightly larger AOE blast encompasses the area, and the turn after that, an AOE blast radius equal to current spell, still centered on original target, with lingering freezing clouds. Damage for each of the three blasts could be about 40% to 45% of current damage, so you get more overall damage, but spread out over three turns. Casting multiple times would instigate multiple "blizzards," so the spell doesn't have any cooldown the way tornado does.

As far as the more drastic changes go, however, I do think that the way to approach that would be, "what niche could be filled?" njvack made a good point about the lack of a quiet, high level AOE spell. You could even build on this by making it a spell that has a chance not to wake up enemies that are already asleep—but does significantly less damage (though still a substantial amount overall). Anyway, those are some ideas, though again, I don't think a change is necessary.

[graffen69]

edited

[Siegurt]

Well, this spell suggestion was interesting enough to me that I wrote it up, in at least rough-and-ready form (Good enough to be played around with and tested, not enough to be added to crawl in it's current form (has no tiles for one thing)

https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=7760

Feel free to do with it as you see fit

[dpeg]

Siegurt: Awesome! Many thanks.

[XuaXua]

This thread makes it easy to identify the liberals from the conservatives.

+1 for change. Differentiation is always interesting. Less of the same, I say!

Of note, I hate how people, when they find something negative about a proposal, dismiss it outright without attempting to read into or modify / sculpt the proposal. Crawl is not developed in an island. If you don't like a proposal for a certain aspect when the rest is salvageable, see how the aspect you don't like can be salvaged instead of dismissing it whole-cloth.

[Siegurt]

In case anyone has downloaded the patch to play with it, there's a newer version, uses variable numbers of explosions (per some feedback on mantis)

[graffen69]

Ok, newbie question here but where do i put the patch? Are patches like this only useable with git?
I´d love to try it out, but not sure into what folder it´s going.

[reaver]

Ok, newbie question here but where do i put the patch? Are patches like this only useable with git?
I´d love to try it out, but not sure into what folder it´s going.

You need to download git, clone Crawl, apply the patch, and compile. here's a git guide specific to Crawl and here's a general one. Ideally I would suggest going on ##crawl or ##crawl-dev (freenode IRC channels) while you're setting it up so you can describe problems as they come up.

[1010011010]

Siegurt, thanks for the patch, it's great.

Although I haven't played a vast amount I did get a good feel for spell as it is. I think the only problem would be the aim mechanism (which I don't think was your fault) where It aims at ice pillars which pose no threat. The Spell as it is now is actually very powerful one on one.

The biggest question is: Would people want to replace ice storm at all, if so is this concept good enough?

[Siegurt]

Yeah, I should fix it so it doesn't target pillars (Requires a little work on my part to make it happen), but honestly I didn't find it was too much of an obstacle to using it.

Did you use the first patch, or the second one with the variable number of rays? (The second is slightly more powerful, and slightly less clunky to use)

[1010011010]

In most cases the targeting was intuitive and made it easy to use.

I didn't play with just the first patch, went straight to the second.

[Siegurt]

Added a new patch which prevents glaciate's secondary rays from targeting the ice statues it creates (Actually it has a little broader impact than that, it prevents the secondary rays of any spray from targeting things that wouldn't be "targets" for the primary ray (Battlesphere and the like))

[sgrunt]

As has been suggested a few times through various channels, I've done up an alternate version of Glaciate with a cone-like area of effect instead of the multiple beams; it also makes use of the new "frozen" effect associated with the new monster spell Flash Freeze (slows the movement of the targets down for three turns). I've attached a patch to the Mantis entry.

[sgrunt]

(double-posting for update purposes)

cszo now has an experimental branch for testing the various versions of Glaciate. At time of writing it is console-only but it probably won't be too long before webtiles is restarted to get it too.

I'll post my thoughts on these after I finish the game I have in progress using them.

EDIT: Well, the game has been won. My thoughts on the three implementations:

• Icicle: doesn't really feel like an Ice spell - maybe it's the explosions flying everywhere, but I think this spell would be best suited by morphing it into a level 8 Conjuration/Fire spell, Mass Fireball. (There'd need to be adjustments made, obviously.)
• Constant: strictly worse than Falloff (Falloff can hit anything Constant can for at least as much damage); should be abandoned.
• Falloff: a certain amount of bias applies, of course, but this has the best feel for fitting in with the other level 9 spells while still being distinct enough. Its use cases are rather different than anything the other level 9 damage spells can do right now in that it can be fired at point-blank range and is rather directional, but has issues with further-away targets. It might be too powerful, even - if this is to survive as our level 9 Conjuration/Ice spell, it at least needs a maximum range reduction (range 5-6 would be about right).

Anyway, the branch has been made available on webtiles since the original post, so go and try the spells out!

[sgrunt]

Apparently, there's an echo in this thread. Oh well.

Anyway, it's in, specifically the Fallout version; there's some murmurs about turning Siegurt's original version into some other spell (my initial idea of Mass Fireball fell flat, but it'll probably turn up sooner or later).

[Hirsch I]

yay! now I just have to make a character strong enough to cast it!