Another Ogre Idea (sorry...)

[Jeremiah]

So, it may be that it is not possible to discuss ogres without the thread descending into trolling; if so, I apologise, and please lock it straight away.

Anyway, it strikes me that ogres are big and have fast metabolism so they probably get hungry a lot: so how about giving them some unique attributes that depend on hunger. The idea is that while other races get weak when they get near to starving, ogres would get madder and badder as they go on the rampage looking for food.

Here are some ideas: please suggest better ones if you think of them
Hungry: no special bonus (they're not that hungry yet.)
Very Hungry: small to hit and damage bonus
Near Starving: significant to hit and damage bonus
Starving: bonus as above plus haste. In addition, they never lose consciousness due to starvation

While having hunger-related effects would have some similarities to the vampire's bloodless effects, the big difference is that vampires cannot actually starve to death while ogres can - so players who try to abuse this by staying hungry all the time could be taking the risk of either actual starvation, or of having to stop to eat in the middle of a fight, which could be just as dangerous.

However, if it was too easily exploited by players, maybe the bonuses could only take effect if the ogre had no food in inventory, or even if there was no known nearby food in the dungeon.

Anyway, I thought this might appeal to those who think ogres should get some more 'interesting' niche while still remaining a challenge race.

[galehar]

Doesn't sound very funny to me.
One the other hand, we've got 3 devs on the wiki agreeing on buffing Ogres a bit, so it might happen. Proposal is something like +1HP/level, and changing apts to something like Fighting +3, M&F +3. There's also the idea of letting them use two handed weapons with 1.5 hands. The biggest ones (GSC) would still need 2 hands.

[danr]

Maybe we should call it "ogreing" instead of "trolling", and start using the abbreviation YAOT - Yet Another Ogre Thread

I really like those ideas that Galehar mentions.

[galehar]

They are supposed to be good at clubbing people in the face, hence the good apt. They'll use clubs wether we boost the aptitude or not anyway. Because of GSC. I meant that keeping your char starving seems like an annoying conduct (not fun instead of not funny).

[smock]

I meant that keeping your char starving seems like an annoying conduct (not fun instead of not funny).

Agreed that this would not be fun. If ogres could eat their fill after tenderizing some critters (saprovore 2, right?) it might be fun.

I do like the idea of exploring hunger more. Vampires are a great idea, even if in practice I lose the enthusiasm to manage their hunger. Ogres would be a decent fit for hunger stuff, but I don't know what would make it really fun.

[Jeremiah]

Ok, if trying to keep them hungry wouldn't be fun, how about giving a combat bonus vs anything they could eat - ie anything that might leave a suitable corpse?

[XuaXua]

Getting more nutrition from eating uncut corpses might be cool.

[sigfried von murdock]

If the Ogg-ogg's could at least hold down more food they would be more playable. Maybe do something different like buff their inherent satiation cap just like how the ghouls cap is halved, maybe give them a 50% bonus, that way they wouldn't be too troll like.

Still some abilities with a bit of synergy would be nice. Having virtually No AC/EV and poor attributes in every magic school but spell casting makes them feel awful gimpy.

I am not sure if this is the right way to go about fixing them since the proposed buff would mean you would have to be playing at very hungry just to reap any benefits, but I would rather have some benefit for when my character is dying of starvation then no benefits to compensate for my character sucking all game.

[vintermann]

I like boosting fighting and HP. I agree M&F doesn't need further boost, it shoehorns them too much into that niche. We want them to be able to wield that triple sword they find on D:1 (preferrably with 1.5 hands ).

If ogre hunger is changed, I hope it's not in a way that's too annoying. Old ogres had carnivore, after all.

"Bloodlust" reminds me of the Ogre Mages in old Warcraft 2. Would that Crawl's Ogres were so badass! Berserk as a targeted spell, exclusive to Ogres, I bet that would make them popular in a hurry

[galehar]

I like boosting fighting and HP. I agree M&F doesn't need further boost, it shoehorns them too much into that niche. We want them to be able to wield that triple sword they find on D:1 (preferrably with 1.5 hands ).

We never suggested to lower their long blades skill. About M&F, they are currently at +1. Races at +2 are MD and Mi.
Their weapon aptitudes are:

  Code:

Fgt SBl LBl M&F Axs Pla Stv UC
+2  -4  -3  +1   -3  0  -1  -1


They are already shoehorned into M&F. Boosting they're aptitude would only make them more effective with it. For fighting, I think +3 or +4 is enough. We want to keep them challenging. +5 seems too much to me.

[vintermann]

Well, I thought in terms of comparative advantage. The times you choose a sword or an axe over a club are already very rare with ogres, they would be rarer still if M&F is increased. Increasing fighting is better to preserve diversity.

I'm not entirely confident how better fighting will play out, though. Maybe you're right +3 or +4 will be enough.

[danr]

Improved fighting to me make a lot of sense, it would make them match people's expectations a lot more.

Improved M&F also makes sense. Ogres should have the best M&F in the game.

My favourite idea in the bunch though would be allowing Ogres to wield large weapons like great maces 1.5 handed. That makes sense as they are physically larger than other species, and it helps them to buff their defense game which is sorely needed.

[pratamawirya]

Flavor-wise, I don't think Ogres are much better than Humans at learning how to fight.

But when they do learn it, it might benefit them much more than it would benefit Humans.

The benefit of learning something should not be tied to the time needed for learning that thing. Flavor-wise, at least.

[sigfried von murdock]

Even with decent fighting, they are terribly vulnerable.

Their attributes have a whole lot more weaknesses than strengths, and even their inherent abilities seem like a horrible trade off. +1 AC for not being able to wear hardly anything (Plus horrible Armour use attributes), Fast Metabolism accompanied with saprovore 1. Which doesn't help at all with holding down extra food or dealing with sickness.

Their main unique ability is to use the giant (spiked) clubs, and to use them much more effectively than trolls. Still there is no "Giant" armor, or extra class of Armour that they are not penalized by, and their spell casting despite being good, is so impractical since -2 to every school of magic leaves you gimping along.

I like the idea of being able to use 1.5 hand M&Fs as 1 handed, and 2 hand M&Fs as 1.5 handed weapons. This makes a shield far more practical since you are not stuck between choosing a uniquely large 2h weapon, or a shield and a normal 1 handed weapon. Being able to have a great mace or something with 1 hand and a large shield seems like a much better option than sticking with an ankus or normal flail and a shield.

[rabidweasel]

I really like the idea behind letting them use 2h weapons as hand and a half, it would make the choice between GSC and 1h/shield a lot more interesting.