Species Proposal: Gelati


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Temple Termagant

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Post Friday, 14th February 2014, 20:00

Species Proposal: Gelati

This race is under construction; proposed changes have been made lower down in the thread

Gelati are a race of magically created humanoids from the fusion of jellies with a variety of sentient beings by a mad wizard and alchemist named Eldregor. Though their appearance is humanoid, the Gelati's pale green skin is actually a film of condensed gel-matter, and they possess only the most rudimentary internal organs, except for their digestive system, which actually permeates the entirety of their bodies.

Innate Abilities and Bonuses (with justification)
  Code:
Medium Size
10% more HP than average (Gelati bodies are hardy due to their lack of internal organs; damaging them significantly is very difficult)
10% more MP than average (Being created from magical experimentation, Gelati are naturally capable of manipulating ambient magic)
Strength or Intelligence increase every 4 levels
+5 MR every level

Acid and Poison immunity (like the jellies they are made from, Gelati are immune to poison and acid)
Constriction immunity (Gelati can simply reform their malleable body outside of the coils of whatever is trying to constrict them)
Innate Preservation (Gelati store items inside their bodies, making it nearly impossible to destroy whatever they are "carrying")
Fire and Cold vulnerability (A Gelati's form is vulnerable to catching fire, even boiling away in the presence of intense heat, as well as being frozen and shattered by intense cold)
Negative Energy Resistance 1 (Gelati are in many ways a kind of homoculus, and as they are not totally alive, they have some protection against necromantic and negative energies)
Gelatinous Body 1 mutation (advances to 2 at level 6, then to 3 at level 12)
Auxiliary pseudopod attack
Auxiliary bite attack that deals acid damage
Fast Metabolism 1, but Jellies can consume even rotting meat
At 10th level, Gelati gain Regeneration 1

Budding: By sacrificing 20% of their HP, a Gelati can bud off a smaller version of itself. The player then takes control of that version and the original body -20% HP is treated is an ally. The budded version has 10% of the original's HP and has +1 to movement speed. Over a very very long period of time this version regains health until it is equal to the original. This can be speeded by consuming items in the way monster jellies do. The more valuable and/or larger the item, the more hit points regained.


Special Class Interactions:
  Code:
Gelati Monks begin the game worshipping Jiyva


Aptitudes:
  Code:
+0 Fighting
-2 Short Blades
-2 Long Blades
-2 Axes
-2 Maces
-2 Polearms
-2 Staves
+2 Unarmed Combat

-3 Bows
-3 Crossbows
-1 Slings
+1 Throwing

-3 Armour
+2 Dodging
-2 Shields
+1 Stealth

+0 Spellcasting
-4 Fire Magic
-4 Ice Magic
-3 Air magic
+0 Earth Magic
+2 Poison Magic
-1 Conjuration
-2 Hexes
-1 Charms
+0 Summoning
-3 Necromancy
-1 Translocation
+2 Transmutation

+1 Invocation
+0 Evocation

-1 EXP


Special Mechanics:
Jellies cannot wield weapons, or wear armor of any kind, though they can equip jewelry

Instead of equipping these items, jellies can consume them to regain health and mana. Additionally, when the player goes to consume such an item, they will be given the option to instead "absorb" it. Absorbing weapons destroys them, but transfers the damage bonus and any egos or enchants they possess to the Gelati's unarmed attacks (even artifacts). Likewise, absorbing armor gives the AC bonus they would have gotten to the Gelati, as well as GDR and any egos.

HOWEVER, if the Gelati elects to replace whatever equipment slot they had last absorbed (i.e. if the Gelati had previously absorbed a +2 leather armour of cold resistance, then decided to now absorb a +3 scale mail of fire resistance), they CANNOT swap back to the original. Any enchantments, AC, damage or properties are gone and are not "remembered". Basically, Gelati have single equipment slots and can't just swap between things for convenience, meaning that while they can never have items destroyed or lost, it makes equipment management much more strategically important for Gelati.

For absorption slots, Gelati have: 1 weapon slot, 1 body armor slot, and 1 accessory slot that can be filled by headgear, a cloak, boots or gloves.

Gelati can also elect to consume wands to regain an amount of mana equal to [5+[(Number of Charges x Spellcasting)/3]]/X where X is a number based on the type of wand, as seen below:
4: Random Effects, Frost, Flame, Magic Darts
3: Paralysis, Digging, Slowing, Confusion, Fire, Cold, Polymorph
2: Fireball, Lightning, Enslavement, Draining, Teleportation, Disintegration
1: Hasting, Invisibility, Heal Wounds
Last edited by TravelLog on Friday, 14th February 2014, 21:19, edited 7 times in total.

Shoals Surfer

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Post Friday, 14th February 2014, 20:05

Re: Species Proposal: Gelati

They sound delicious.

In fairness, I've only looked at your proposal for 20 seconds, but I see +2 UC and the ability to absorb brands and slaying for UC. That won't fly.

Temple Termagant

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Post Friday, 14th February 2014, 20:09

Re: Species Proposal: Gelati

ackack wrote:They sound delicious.

In fairness, I've only looked at your proposal for 20 seconds, but I see +2 UC and the ability to absorb brands and slaying for UC. That won't fly.


I considered this, but wondered if the fact that they can only have 1 such brand at a time, and can never switch back and forth between two brands due to their absorption mechanic might counteract it. Maybe lower the UC skill bonus or prohibit slaying, but allow brands? Prohibit brands and allow slaying?
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Post Friday, 14th February 2014, 20:11

Re: Species Proposal: Gelati

TravelLog wrote:Special Class Interactions:
  Code:
Gelati Monks begin the game worshipping Jiyva
Gelati cannot be


Well, uh, if you insist.
take it easy

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Temple Termagant

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Post Friday, 14th February 2014, 20:11

Re: Species Proposal: Gelati

Arrhythmia wrote:
TravelLog wrote:Special Class Interactions:
  Code:
Gelati Monks begin the game worshipping Jiyva
Gelati cannot be


Well, uh, if you insist.


Whoops. Fixed.

Barkeep

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Post Friday, 14th February 2014, 20:36

Re: Species Proposal: Gelati

Not trying to be harsh, but this species seems extremely strong, but also extremely narrow and repetitive, at the same time. You don't even get to choose your god. Plus it has got more bells and whistles on it than gargoyles and djinn put together.

You can start as a venom mage, or wizard, or maybe a few other things that make sense, but basically however you start off, you are going to be hitting stuff with UC. The aptitudes make them even more narrow. You eat weapons and get their bonuses, which isn't a restriction but an enormous advantage, as it is functionally the same as every weapon in the game spawning as the same category as the weapon you started with. (Imagine if picking a falchion as a fighter with some other species guaranteed that every weapon in game would be a long sword of some kind.) You can't weapon switch, but why would you ever want to? If I am reading this correctly, you can't even use ranged combat anyway, so the one instance where absorbing weapons and using them via UC could be a drawback doesn't apply.

People generally don't swap armor *too* much so absorbing just gives you the ability to wear super-heavy armor with no spell casting ability or EV hit (again unless I am misunderstanding something). Plus, you get 10% more HP and MP than average.

A jelly species might work, but
1.) you need to unrestrict its religious choice, only being able to start with a god (and especially one that is intentionally designed such that you cannot usually worship him until Lair) is really bad
2.) you should make it simpler—keep potentially interesting stuff, cut the fluff
3.) you should give it an interesting drawback that affects game play (not rF-), particularly if you want to leave in some of its more powerful effects.
4.) you should break it out of such a small niche role. It doesn't have to be as general as humans or whatever, but this is really way too narrow as it stands


My recommendation:

1.) revamp how it uses items. Some kind of absorption mechanic could work but you'd need something that doesn't make so much of item choice meaningless (we already have felids). Off the top of my head: You need to equip items, but you slowly eat away at them, meaning you have to replace them. However, you can eat wands and use the energy to charge a "regalvanize" and repair—or even improve—all your current equipment. Jelly dudes get a bonus though, in that the encumbrance penalty of any armor is reduced. Optional: Jelly dudes can equip naga barding, centaur barding, or boots, at their discretion. (They can squeeze—or expand—into anything.)
2.) Keep +10% HP and MP.
3.) Give slow movement speed, like naga. This will be its major drawback and could help justify some powerful traits. Plus it is a very interesting drawback that fundamentally affects how you play the game.
4.) Give it good auxiliary attacks; this can encourage melee and especially UC, without making UC the *only* reasonable option
5.) flatten out those attributes; I'd actually say, give it good aptitudes all around. (Hey, it makes sense that jelly-people are pretty adaptable and can do lots of stuff without... ahem... spreading themselves too thin.)
6.) Keep some of the neat mutations and conveniences (like innate conservation of scrolls / potions).
7.) Drop the rF-, drop the fast metabolism (slow metabolism might make more sense). These things are just a nuisance and we already have species with these traits.
8.) Keep budding, but just have it take off a percentage of HP and provide an ally whose power scales up with level. Your current suggestion seems really complicated.
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Post Friday, 14th February 2014, 21:07

Re: Species Proposal: Gelati

This is what I think might be interesting about this species:

    Budding
    Wand Eating
    rF- and rC-
    Having only on Aux equipment slot

What I think of each:

Budding: Currently this is an incredibly weak ability to sane player would ever use. 90% of your health is a ludicrous drawback. The general wisdom is that if you're at 50% of your health and there's an enemy in the LOS, you should have fled several turns ago. Getting a perma-ally by reducing your max hp for a while seems a little interesting, although allies in general aren't the best mechanic.

Wand Eating: This is one of those things that I just know will get in the game sooner or later. It seems interesting and intuitive to allow wand to function as potions of magic thought somehow. It's fine as a species mechanic, but is it really being put to the greatest use here? Is there anything that could make it even more relevant?

rF-/rC-: and into disagrees, but I think that changing up defenses by giving negative resists and high HP to compensate can be interesting. I could see this not working out, but this would be easy to try and discard if it doesn't work.

Single Aux slot: I'm talking about this bit:
TravelLog wrote:For absorption slots, Gelati have: .... 1 accessory slot that can be filled by headgear, a cloak, boots or gloves.
I have never had to choice between a hat of Int and boots of jumping, so that's interesting.

My suggestion to start off: Drop everything except what I listed from the species. You can think of the major mechanics as the skeleton and everything else as the fleshing out - it's all just fluff and support. There needs to be a key mechanical change before anything else can be decided. This means setting apts. to human levels, dropping all other mutations, removing the god interactions and resistances, everything. In fact, you should consider removing rF- and rC- and/or wand eating too.

The more I look at the list of features I like, the more it seems to me that they would each go better in a different place, just like Acid Spit helps the game greatly on Nagas but would be near useless anywhere else. This proposal has a couple interesting ideas, but nothing is cohesive enough to tie it together.

PS: The strategic equipment change is a good idea, but the god Ash applies the same concept. Look up his abilities and play him a couple times, Ash gets his depth from a system the plays on the same decisions yours does.
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Temple Termagant

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Post Friday, 14th February 2014, 21:08

Re: Species Proposal: Gelati

and into wrote:
  Code:
People generally don't swap armor *too* much so absorbing just gives you the ability to wear super-heavy armor with no spell casting ability or EV hit (again unless I am misunderstanding something). Plus, you get 10% more HP and MP than average.

A jelly species might work, but
1.) you need to unrestrict its religious choice, only being able to start with a god (and especially one that is intentionally designed such that you cannot usually worship him until Lair) is really bad
2.) you should make it simpler—keep potentially interesting stuff, cut the fluff
3.) you should give it an interesting drawback that affects game play (not rF-), particularly if you want to leave in some of its more powerful effects.
4.) you should break it out of such a small niche role. It doesn't have to be as general as humans or whatever, but this is really way too narrow as it stands



  Code:
My recommendation:

1.) revamp how it uses items. Some kind of absorption mechanic could work but you'd need something that doesn't make so much of item choice meaningless (we already have felids). Off the top of my head: You need to equip items, but you slowly eat away at them, meaning you have to replace them. However, you can eat wands and use the energy to charge a "regalvanize" and repair—or even improve—all your current equipment. Jelly dudes get a bonus though, in that the encumbrance penalty of any armor is reduced. Optional: Jelly dudes can equip naga barding, centaur barding, or boots, at their discretion. (They can squeeze—or expand—into anything.)
2.) Keep +10% HP and MP.
3.) Give slow movement speed, like naga. This will be its major drawback and could help justify some powerful traits. Plus it is a very interesting drawback that fundamentally affects how you play the game.
4.) Give it good auxiliary attacks; this can encourage melee and especially UC, without making UC the *only* reasonable option
5.) flatten out those attributes; I'd actually say, give it good aptitudes all around. (Hey, it makes sense that jelly-people are pretty adaptable and can do lots of stuff without... ahem... spreading themselves too thin.)
6.) Keep some of the neat mutations and conveniences (like innate conservation of scrolls / potions).
7.) Drop the rF-, drop the fast metabolism (slow metabolism might make more sense). These things are just a nuisance and we already have species with these traits.
8.) Keep budding, but just have it take off a percentage of HP and provide an ally whose power scales up with level. Your current suggestion seems really complicated.


I definitely see what you mean (though only Monks start with Jivya, all other backgrounds are unrestricted for god choice). I like all of these, though the current budding was more of an escape strategy and I'm not sure about providing allies instead. That one I'll have to consider. What would you say to the following:

Innate Abilities and Bonuses (with justification)
  Code:
Medium Size
10% more HP than average (Gelati bodies are hardy due to their lack of internal organs; damaging them significantly is very difficult)
10% more MP than average (Being created from magical experimentation, Gelati are naturally capable of manipulating ambient magic)
Strength or Intelligence increase every 4 levels
+5 MR every level

Slow Movement
Two auxiliary attacks: pseudopod and an acidic bite
Acid and Poison immunity (like the jellies they are made from, Gelati are immune to poison and acid)
Constriction immunity (Gelati can simply reform their malleable body outside of the coils of whatever is trying to constrict them)
Innate Preservation (Gelati store items inside their bodies, making it nearly impossible to destroy whatever they are "carrying")
Innate "Gourmand" (Gelati can eat until Engorged without an amulet of the gourmand, though they gain no bonus nutrition)
Fire and Cold vulnerability (A Gelati's form is vulnerable to catching fire, even boiling away in the presence of intense heat, as well as being frozen and shattered by intense cold)
Gelatinous Body 1 mutation (advances to 2 at level 6, then to 3 at level 12)
Adaptable Form: Gelati can reshape their bodies to fit any kind of armor, and can equip naga or centaur barding in additional to the usual body armors. When wearing armor, Gelati are treated as if the armor's encumbrance penalty was lower, scaling up with level as the Gelati becomes more adept at reshaping its body.
At 10th level, Gelati gain Regeneration 1

Budding: By sacrificing 50% of their HP, a Gelati can bud off a smaller version of itself in any unoccupied adjacent square. The player then takes control of that version and the original body is treated is an ally. The budded version gains +1 to movement speed. Over a long period of time this version regains health until the Gelati is restored to normal. This can be speeded by consuming items in the way monster jellies do. The more valuable and/or larger the item, the more hit points regained.

Absorption: Jellies can consume items to regain health, with the exception of ammunition, wands, potions and scrolls. Mundane items give a small number of hit points back, enchanted items return slightly more, and branded, runed or otherwise legendary items give more still. (Probably 1-4 HP for mundane, 5-10 for enchanted, 11-15 for things like a legendary deck, a branded weapon, etc.)


Special Class Interactions:
  Code:
Gelati Monks begin the game worshipping Jiyva


Aptitudes:
  Code:
+1 Fighting
+0 Short Blades
-2 Long Blades
-1 Axes
+0 Maces
-1 Polearms
+0 Staves
+1 Unarmed Combat

-1 Bows
-1 Crossbows
+0 Slings
+1 Throwing

-2 Armour
+2 Dodging
-1 Shields
+1 Stealth

+1 Spellcasting
-2 Fire Magic
-2 Ice Magic
+0 Air magic
+1 Earth Magic
+2 Poison Magic
+1 Conjuration
-1 Hexes
-1 Charms
+1 Summoning
-2 Necromancy
+0 Translocation
+2 Transmutation

+1 Invocation
+1 Evocation

+0 EXP


Special Mechanics:

Because of their acidic composition, Gelati need to constantly eat food or items to prevent their bodies from trying to forcibly consume their equipment and surroundings. As such, whenever a Gelati's nutrition level falls to Hungry, there is a small chance each turn that any equipment they are wearing will begin to corrode. At Very Hungry, this chance goes up slightly. At Near Starving, this chance goes up again, and there is an additonal (very small) chance that any egos on the Gelati's weapons or armor will be eaten away as the Gelati's body seeks out any source of available energy. At Starving, this chance extends even to artifacts.

Gelati can, however, also elect to consume wands and other evocables to either regain an amount of mana equal to [5+[(Number of Charges x Spellcasting)/3]]/X where X is a number based on the type of wand, as seen below:
4: Random Effects, Frost, Flame, Magic Darts
3: Paralysis, Digging, Slowing, Confusion, Fire, Cold, Polymorph; Mundane Decks, Sack of Spiders, Box of Beasts
2: Fireball, Lightning, Enslavement, Draining, Teleportation, Disintegration; Ornate Decks, Lantern of Shadows, Bottled Efreet, Lamp of Fire, Phial of Floods, Stone of Tremors, Fan of Gales
1: Hasting, Invisibility, Heal Wounds; Legendary Decks, Disc of Storms, Crystal Ball of Energy, All Rods

OR, they can transfer the magical energy to their equipment, returning it to its original, non-corroded state. Category 4 items above remove corrosion from a single piece of equipment, Category 3 items remove corrosion from all equipment, Category 2 items remove corrosion and can restore brands or enchantments, and Category 1 items are able to restore corroded artifacts.

Dungeon Dilettante

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Post Friday, 14th February 2014, 22:07

Re: Species Proposal: Gelati

Pretty interesting.

Maybe do something like forcing the budding on the player character itself if it takes too much damage? So you get split up if you take too much damage at once or something?
To offset the lowered hp (and damage?) you get a chance of getting away while buds block the way? [this would not work if there's no place for new parts of you to spawn]

Another thing i think of with a jelly species is that maybe they should be able to give out bad mutations to monsters or something to that effect. Basically if you manage to draw out the fight with a strong monster, you're chances of getting the upper hand increase somewhat.

All in all, the Gelati player should be rewarded for knowing when to split, so to say :roll:
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Barkeep

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Post Friday, 14th February 2014, 22:33

Re: Species Proposal: Gelati

While I feel like there are a lot of good ideas here, I think the lesson Dj should teach species designers is that too many special cases and fiddly powers makes for an unenjoyable experience. There are simply too many variables and moving parts here.

If I were going to fix this, I would focus on splitting off an ally as the core mechanic, with a high rotting cost that can be recovered by consuming powerful magic items. Corroding armor seems likely to just be a huge pain, while the huge list of immunities and whatnot seem like they'd lead to balance issues that might be tricky to resolve.

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Post Saturday, 15th February 2014, 00:47

Re: Species Proposal: Gelati

and into wrote:4.) Give it good auxiliary attacks; this can encourage melee and especially UC, without making UC the *only* reasonable option

Why? UC does nothing to improve non-punch aux attacks at all and it isn't even particularly fast for its exp cost at reasonable levels.
Not that I'm defending the madness that branded fists with slaying are but this part doesn't make much sense to me.

Barkeep

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Post Saturday, 15th February 2014, 20:43

Re: Species Proposal: Gelati

dck: Yes UC doesn't improve aux attacks, should have been clearer what I meant: Having good aux attacks (at least in my experience) makes UC much more palatable in early game, when UC is typically at its worst. So good aux attacks plus good UC and transmutations aptitude can make weaponless combat appealing, without pigeon-holing the species with crazy overpowered bonuses to specific stuff.

Anyway, some other ideas for possibly thematic ways jelly guys can use items:

Forget the "encumbrance bonus" and "slowly corrodes equipment" stuff, and instead

Idea 1:
Gelati have two pseudopods which act as arms in the same manner as most species. Rather than jewelry slots and armor slots, though, they get 4 (maybe 5?) "equip anything" slots. Yes, you can even put more than one body armor on them. However, Gelati get only half the bonus AC from training armor skill, and if you put more than one encumbrance-causing body armor on them, the total encumbrance is increased by a large amount (more than just the sum of the two). Unlike other species, Gelati become slowed (burdened, then overloaded) when their encumbrance from body armor is too high. Their tolerance for body armour encumbrance depends on their strength stat.

Idea 2:
Gelati become the species for people who are into inventory management for whatever reason. They have regular slots. You can swap weapons in 5 auts, like other species, but additionally Gelati can change any type of equipment in one turn (10 auts). However, Gelati have reduced inventory space. (Perhaps only 27, rather than 52, inventory spaces?)

Idea 3:
Gelati have regular slots and inventory space. However, you get a special ability to equip a "secondary" or alternative set of equipment. You also have an ability through the "a" menu to swap to your alternate wardrobe; takes 10 aut and has a food and either breath or exhaustion cost. When you use your budding ability, your new... uh, buddy will be equipped with whatever set of clothes and weapon you aren't currently using. This introduces a novel kind of strategic consideration, and also pairs well with the budding thing. This makes Gelati basically a "perma-ally" specialty species.

Probably I like idea 3 the best.

Idea for how to balance budding: It reduces your max HP by X% while your buddy is active. When your bud ally dies your max HP returns to normal (current HP stays same obviously), but you get yellow drain. You can't reuse budding until the drain is removed.

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Post Saturday, 15th February 2014, 20:57

Re: Species Proposal: Gelati

What happens if you eat a deck of cards?

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Post Saturday, 15th February 2014, 21:10

Re: Species Proposal: Gelati

Wouldn't you always just collect a pile of stuff, bud, then absorb the stuff to get back to normal? Isn't it scummable?

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Post Saturday, 15th February 2014, 22:03

Re: Species Proposal: Gelati

@ and into: I like those idea, specifically 1. Making a gelatinous player species which uses any equipment it can find. An idea I dreamt up: The species holds everything inside itself making jewellery (and maybe armour) in your inventory and not worn can randomly (1/(x+n), n=number of jewellery, x=adjustable factor) contribute to evasion or damage reduction.
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Post Monday, 17th February 2014, 00:56

Re: Species Proposal: Gelati

Personally I think the budding is less interesting as a central mechanic than the item-eating, since budding would only influence gameplay in certain dangerous situations. Suggestion: give them slow regen and make eating items heal them+restore satiation. Items could heal by an amount based on their value, and corpses by their weight. A powerful evocable or branded weapon could restore health on par with a potion of heal wounds.
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Post Monday, 17th February 2014, 09:43

Re: Species Proposal: Gelati

there isn't a very, very similar proposal on the CDO wiki?
EDIT: found it.
https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... pose:jelly
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Post Monday, 17th February 2014, 14:58

Re: Species Proposal: Gelati

Pretty rad idea, though I gotta admit starting with jivya, even coming from someone who plays CKs heavily and LOVES mutations, seems so overpowered that you might as well just delete demonspawn from the game!

The idea of budding not hurting but instead being uncontrolled based on your taking damage sounds very very amusing.
The idea of eating charged items like wands, rods, and decks (and i'm sure nemmy would LOVE that hahaha) to either recover resources or restore drain/rot/contam seems neat -
Although this gives me an idea: what if you couldn't be healed by potions or evocables, and MUST consume charged items to heal? That might kinda justify getting regen, and can be mitigated with regen jewelry.
Or like the post above me I only just noticed in previewing - of consuming anything magical as your source of healing.

Also with all these effects going on, that ANY of your apts is above -2 seems BONKERS, yo.

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